Is it true that the "round pedalling stroke" is a myth?

[dominikk85]

BTW I never understood why being stuck in the pedals when falling is dangerous. I know there are accidents with beginners at 1 mph falling to the side because they panick and don't get out but if you have any kind of speed getting out of the pedals won't help you at all. in fact I think it is safer if you stay in both pedals and then slide flat over the road then trying to do some kind of saving maneuver with the free leg.

when I was still track cycling I once crashed with 30 mph in a sprint and the least that I worried about was getting out of the pedals.

I do definitely pull up in sprints and when starting hard. but at a full ride probably not. still clipless pedals make a lot of sense for many reasons.

 

[dominikk85]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


Did you even read the first page of this thread?



-Dave

what post are you referring to?

 

[jpwkeeper]

Clipless pedals, according to one of the articles, help keep the feet in proper position during higher cadence pedaling. I rode platforms with my current bike before getting PowerGrips (money's a bit too tight for clipless) and I definitely noticed a difference at 90-95RPMs with some foot float, which was kind of annoying. Plus the "scrape-the-mud" phase to set up the opposite foot's downstroke is aided by clipless, just not all that much.

On the graph at the beginning of the article, notice that the entry ramp to the pedal stroke is about equal to the exit ramp, which means the rider is pulling on the pedal from around 4:00 till around 6:30-ish. For a true masher, I'd expect the fall-off of the curve to be sharper than the ramp-up of the curve and for the curve to bottom out slightly before 180 instead of slightly afterwords. The evenness of that bell tells me that the rider in question is actually pedaling circle, but only on the front half (plus a little) of the circle.

So I think clipless/clips are an improvement, but they're not a huge improvement.

 

[alienator]

BTW I never understood why being stuck in the pedals when falling is dangerous. I know there are accidents with beginners at 1 mph falling to the side because they panick and don't get out but if you have any kind of speed getting out of the pedals won't help you at all. in fact I think it is safer if you stay in both pedals and then slide flat over the road then trying to do some kind of saving maneuver with the free leg. when I was still track cycling I once crashed with 30 mph in a sprint and the least that I worried about was getting out of the pedals. I do definitely pull up in sprints and when starting hard. but at a full ride probably not. still clipless pedals make a lot of sense for many reasons.

Staying in the pedals is a problem when that slide comes non-smooth forces not amenable to skeletal continuity are applied to the leg/pedal system. It's also quite often not a benefit to be attached to the pedals when not sliding, i.e. when moving in the vertical planes or when hit by a car. That's why pedals are designed to release.

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

But you asked what reason there is to use clipless if they don't actually allow you to pull up. I gave you my reasons and was careful not to state that those reasons were universal or factually proven. So use clipless or use platforms or whatever you like but when folks repeat the mantra that clips and cleats improve power efficiency it just doesn't stand up under inspection. As to your follow on question as to why folks use them if they don't improve actual power well I've offered my reasons but other folks may have other reasons.

Sorry if I my questions had a negative tone. I really just want to find a reason to keep using clipless pedals because it will save me from having to explain over and over again why I'm not using them on my mountain bike. Every time I go out, someone tries to explain to me why I need to get "real" pedals.

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .

BTW I never understood why being stuck in the pedals when falling is dangerous. I know there are accidents with beginners at 1 mph falling to the side because they panick and don't get out but if you have any kind of speed getting out of the pedals won't help you at all. in fact I think it is safer if you stay in both pedals and then slide flat over the road then trying to do some kind of saving maneuver with the free leg.

when I was still track cycling I once crashed with 30 mph in a sprint and the least that I worried about was getting out of the pedals.

I do definitely pull up in sprints and when starting hard. but at a full ride probably not. still clipless pedals make a lot of sense for many reasons.

I agree it doesn't make much difference in a high speed crash. Those are going to hurt no matter what. But there are lots of situations where a pedal release problem can turn a normally safe situation into a very dangerous one. Here are a few that haunt me:

1) Stop at a busy intersection and fall over into traffic in the adjacent lane (this has happened to me and a collage student was killed this way last year in Minneapolis)
2) Stop on trail falling a steep slope, fall over, and roll down into a ravine
3) Pedaling up a steep slope, find I am unable to continue, try to dismount but stay clipped, roll backwards down hill
4) At medium speed, lose control, fail to dismount, crash onto knee (or head) instead of feet (this has happened to me)
5) Stop near rocks, fall over on rocks.
6) Stop near anything hard, sharp, or deep, fall over and get hurt.

If falling over is not a problem for you, then this probably seems very low risk, but I have fallen over at least once every time I mountain biked with clipless pedals. It's just a matter of time before a disaster happens.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .
.... I really just want to find a reason to keep using clipless pedals because it will save me from having to explain over and over again why I'm not using them on my mountain bike. Every time I go out, someone tries to explain to me why I need to get "real" pedals.

Don't worry about what other folks think. Use what works for you. There are some seriously talented mountain bike riders that prefer platform pedals and I remember the days when the fastest cyclocross racers wouldn't switch from toe clips and straps even after most of us more mediocre riders had started using off road clipless systems, those folks were winning races and clearly not struggling with what now seems like dated technology.

This guy seems to manage pretty well with platform pedals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC_7P237if8

I really like being securely attached to the pedal, makes technical riding and fast descending feel a lot more like skiing but there are plenty of folks who are fine without being locked into a pedal so go with what works for you. The thing I tend to rail against is perpetuating unfounded belief's as truths when it comes to things like power generation and cycling efficiency.

BTW, I tend to agree with Tony's point in that the only time I've really pulled out of clipless pedals is during full out sprinting. I must have been pulling up to some extent or I wouldn't have pulled out of my pedals and it was a miracle I didn't go straight over the bars in any of those situations so at least in maximal sprints a tight connection seems pretty useful but again the BMX racers seem to be able to manage that with platform pedals somehow and their events are all about sprinting and bike handling.

-Dave

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

This guy seems to manage pretty well with platform pedals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC_7P237if8

So you're saying all I need to do is perform these stunts when someone tells me I need clipless pedals?

By the way, that's some really amazing stuff. I could not believe my eyes.

 

[vspa]

the bicycling magazine article cited above shows a study where improvement was 5 bpm for the same wattage, that's quite a lot, like going from the 17 sprocket to the 16,

 

[jollyrogers]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .


This brings up a related question. If clipless pedals don't increase efficiency, what good are they? I've been using for years now because I thought they made me more efficient...

 

[alienator]

That data doesn't show whether it was collected with the rider sitting or standing. It would be interesting to see how the data changes with road grade.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by alienator .


That data doesn't show whether it was collected with the rider sitting or standing. It would be interesting to see how the data changes with road grade.

Reading the abstract, the cyclists performed constant work at 90 rpm so it seems safe to assume they were seated. But the interesting thing is that left to natural pedaling motions both the elite and non-cyclist groups had nearly identical torque patterns for platform pedals and clipless pedals to the point where the curves are superimposed and can't be distinguished from one another. But then when they were coached with 'pedaling feedback' and encouraged to pull up on the back side of the pedal stroke both groups ended up with the dotted curves which showed greater torque application at various phases of the pedal stroke(greater 'mechanical effectiveness' in the study's terrms) but lowered total torque and power and lowered GME. So at least in this study either platform or clipless pedals and rider preferred technique (even for non cyclists) produced higher power and lower GME than efforts to pull up with clipless pedals.

So if you want to even out the pedal stroke but do so at less power and higher O2 utilization then pulling up on the back stroke with clipless pedals seems like the way to go

Here's another study that came to the same conclusions: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17545890

And a nice summary from the perspective of a MTB rider so pretty relevant to gudujarlson's question above: http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-science-behind-barefoot-pedaling/

-Dave

 

[n crowley]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .


This brings up a related question. If clipless pedals don't increase efficiency, what good are they?

Cyclists don't know how to use them for best advantage. Engineers have wasted years of research attempting to create equipment that could compensate for the inability to apply effective torque as crank moves between 11 and 1 o'c, that is an impossible task because it's all about physiology. Ever since cleats, toe-clips and straps became available, using nothing more than standard chain ring, cranks and pedals, it has been possible to apply the same maximal torque to the crank as it moves through 12 ,1 and 2 o'c as that applied around 3 o'c. All that's involved is a simple adjustment in the use of muscles and you have the perfect semi-circular power stroke (11-5 o'c), which with both legs gives the perfect sustainable high gear high power TT pedalling technique. This has already been explained in earlier threads. There are three useful pedalling techniques,circular, mashing and semi circular and there is an ideal time or place for each of them. The weaker circular for warming up and sheltered group riding, mashing for explosive acceleration purposes plus the technical sections of TT courses and the semi circular method for constant high gear TT riding. Having studied TT pedalling footage, I am satisfied Anquetil used this same non stop high gear power application in time trials.

 

[dominikk85]

Originally Posted by n crowley .


Cyclists don't know how to use them for best advantage. Engineers have wasted years of research attempting to create equipment that could compensate for the inability to apply effective torque as crank moves between 11 and 1 o'c, that is an impossible task because it's all about physiology. Ever since cleats, toe-clips and straps became available, using nothing more than standard chain ring, cranks and pedals, it has been possible to apply the same maximal torque to the crank as it moves through 12 ,1 and 2 o'c as that applied around 3 o'c. All that's involved is a simple adjustment in the use of muscles and you have the perfect semi-circular power stroke (11-5 o'c), which with both legs gives the perfect sustainable high gear high power TT pedalling technique. This has already been explained in earlier threads. There are three useful pedalling techniques,circular, mashing and semi circular and there is an ideal time or place for each of them. The weaker circular for warming up and sheltered group riding, mashing for explosive acceleration purposes plus the technical sections of TT courses and the semi circular method for constant high gear TT riding. Having studied TT pedalling footage, I am satisfied Anquetil used this same non stop high gear power application in time trials.

that sounds interesting. can someone explain that part to me in simple words? sorry I'm no native speaker and don't really understand it.

does semi-circular mean initiate the pushing early (before 12) and concentrate in the top part of the arc?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .

that sounds interesting. can someone explain that part to me in simple words? sorry I'm no native speaker and don't really understand it.

does semi-circular mean initiate the pushing early (before 12) and concentrate in the top part of the arc?

Yes it's easy. Noah has a theory based on images of his childhood cycling hero that everyone pedals incorrectly and that we'd magically produce more power if we pedaled as Jacques Anquetil pedaled which was an extreme toe down style. His evidence is completely based on his visual observations of some old racing footage and there are no power measurements or force application plots or efficiency measurements or any studies of any sort to back up Noah's claims yet his faith is unshaken on this subject.

I'm surprised he hasn't dropped by to set us all straight on his brilliance and the worldwide conspiracy to silence the truth on pedaling.

Unless Noah has finally convinced some disciples I doubt you'll find anyone else to back up his claims so take the advice he offers at your own risk of confusing a very simple subject. As the plots above from the platform pedal vs clipless pedal studies show even untrained cyclists apply almost exactly the same application of pedaling force as trained and elite cyclists. The bicycle really is a simple machine and it doesn't take a lot of training to figure out how to pedal a bicycle efficiently.

-Dave

 

[n crowley]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .
does semi-circular mean initiate the pushing early (before 12) and concentrate in the top part of the arc?

Semi-circular means each leg can apply 180 degrees of maximal force to the crank, starting at 11 with the equivalent of 2 o'c crank torque. A sliding (not pushing) technique is used between 11 and 2 and this merges with the pushing action from 2 to 5 o'c. That is why cleats etc are a necessity for maximal torque application through the upper dead spot sector. Each leg gets total concentration for the entire 180 deg.

 

[alienator]

 Semi-circular means each leg can apply 180 degrees of maximal force to the crank, starting at 11 with the equivalent of 2 o'c crank torque. A sliding (not pushing) technique is used between 11 and 2 and this merges with the pushing action from 2 to 5 o'c. That is why cleats etc are a necessity for maximal torque application through the upper dead spot sector. Each leg gets total concentration for the entire 180 deg.

Where is your data that shows this? If I remember correctly, you are the one that claims to have some "linear" pedal stroke. It is certain that Anquetil's power ouput per degree or per radian (or similarly torque per degree or radian cannot be deduced, measured, or characterized by watching a movie that shows him pedaling. A smooth pedal stroke is not indicative of any particular power output distribution over a full crank rotation.

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by n crowley .



Semi-circular means each leg can apply 180 degrees of maximal force to the crank, starting at 11 with the equivalent of 2 o'c crank torque. A sliding (not pushing) technique is used between 11 and 2 and this merges with the pushing action from 2 to 5 o'c. That is why cleats etc are a necessity for maximal torque application through the upper dead spot sector. Each leg gets total concentration for the entire 180 deg.

Are you implying applying torque evenly throughout the crank rotation is more efficient than applying it uneveningly? If so, what basis do you have for implying such?

 

[dominikk85]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


Yes it's easy. Noah has a theory based on images of his childhood cycling hero that everyone pedals incorrectly and that we'd magically produce more power if we pedaled as Jacques Anquetil pedaled which was an extreme toe down style. His evidence is completely based on his visual observations of some old racing footage and there are no power measurements or force application plots or efficiency measurements or any studies of any sort to back up Noah's claims yet his faith is unshaken on this subject.

I'm surprised he hasn't dropped by to set us all straight on his brilliance and the worldwide conspiracy to silence the truth on pedaling.

Unless Noah has finally convinced some disciples I doubt you'll find anyone else to back up his claims so take the advice he offers at your own risk of confusing a very simple subject. As the plots above from the platform pedal vs clipless pedal studies show even untrained cyclists apply almost exactly the same application of pedaling force as trained and elite cyclists. The bicycle really is a simple machine and it doesn't take a lot of training to figure out how to pedal a bicycle efficiently.

-Dave

wouldn't a be a 11 to 5 pushing be more of a mashing style rather than a round stroke? why would you use toe down for this?

I always thought that the push down dominant guys use a heel down style and the toe down style is used by high cadence spinners who are not creating high downward forces

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .

wouldn't a be a 11 to 5 pushing be more of a mashing style rather than a round stroke? why would you use toe down for this?

I always thought that the push down dominant guys use a heel down style and the toe down style is used by high cadence spinners who are not creating high downward forces

Please don't look to me to explain or defend his theories. As far as I'm concerned it's just idle speculation and trying to make sense of a talented cyclist that didn't appear to pedal like everyone else. For all we know Anquetil was so talented that he succeeded in spite of an inefficient pedaling style not because of it but we'll never know as we lack the empirical data.

When Noah can produce objective data that demonstrates his theories, we might pay attention but he's been pushing this stuff for at least the six years I've been on these boards but there's still no data or case studies supporting his linear pedaling ideas.

-Dave