Discovery in disarray.... ?

[limerickman]

Its hard to tell if you just try to provoke people or are just that pompous naturally.
"Let me correct you."

No intent to insult on my part when using the phrase "let me correct you"

if offence was taken - apologies.

Please show me Hinault's contract that states he works for them 80 days a year.

I don't have Hinaults ASO employment contract to hand.

But.

I do have the Badgers own words - in the Procycling Hinault's 50th birthday article where he asked about his life after cycling "Mainly I farm back in Brittany. But I am also contracted to work for the ASO for 80 days per year...."

In any case. he works for them, he is their employee, he is the public face on the podium and he has chosen to make a very strong and public statement in support of that.

Hinault's not employed by the ASO - he's hired by the ASO.
Small point.

As regards Hinault's statement - Hinaults entitled to make his statement.

Regardless of his employment status, how many shirts are sold at Covent Garden, and the price of tea in CHina, no one responding negatively has been able to answer the question:
Hinault is France's greatest cyclist and has come out in support of Lance.
That should explin it to anyone.
Nuff said.

Hinault's opinion is just that - an opinion.

I think Hinault would better served supporting cyclists like Basson who have been unequivocal in the stance on cheating.
Just my view.

 

[limerickman]

A "seasonal" employee makes sense if the goal on the part of ASO is, in part, for Hinault to be seen at the Tour.

Hinault's participation within the ASO mirrors the tradition of all the great cyclists who perform duties at the TDF.
For example Indurain being asked to present the jersey at the prologue of the 1997 TDF, following his retirement at 1st December 2006.
The grand champions are always asked to present and work at the TDF.
Armstrong hasn't been asked to participate.

if you ever get the chance to visit the TDF - you will see many of the ex-champions there doing corporate work : I've seen LeMond, Kelly, Roche, Hampsten to name but some.
Older riders like Stablinski are in corporate cars telling sponsors about the old days of the sport.

Look at the closing ceremony : Merckx is invariably there at the presentation of jerseys.

Let me correct you. Have you heard of such a thing as a "part-time" employee or "seasonal" employee? A "seasonal" employee makes sense if the goal on the part of ASO is, in part, for Hinault to be seen at the Tour.

Even if Hinault were not an employee (your argument), have you heard of a "representative"?

Not to get too technical ; but there is a clear distinction between contract of service (employee contract) and contract for services (contractor contract).

Hinault hasn't got an employee contract at ASO - which would be legally defined as a "contract of service".
He's not employed by the ASO nor is he an employee of the ASO.

In all probability, Hinault would have a "contract for service" which is a contract/contractor agreement to cover his role working 80 days per year at ASO.
Subtle but important disntinction.

 

[limerickman]

In the last 7 years if you polled people worldwide very few people on a world basis in non cycling countries would even know one pro rider except for Lance. The fact you were in the states and someone had heard of the TDf and not Lance is ********. Do you really think Ullrich is known outside cycling strong countries? I doubt it. When Greg Lemond won the TDF most people had never heard of the TDF in this country.
The US is not the center of the universe, but we are not cycling stupid. Within a few hours of me lives a 3 times TDF winner, the former home of a Giro winner and down the road a few miles is a current rider in the pro ranks in Europe.

I have followed the TDF for over 30 years. And never has a rider been so dominating in the world news as LA. He helped the TDF go beyond it's typical boundaries more then all the riders combined.

I have worked with international students as customers the past 5 years. And very few of them [mostly female] can even name a cyclist from their country. The Russians and Germans excepted. I had 5 french customers who can't couldn't even tell me the name of one French rider.{current] But they could tell me that they knew of Lance.

As far as WADA goes..... Conspiracy? Read the recent report and tell me that that LA was not targeted. The lab said he was targeted by **** Pound. And we may see the connection between WADA and the newspaper someday. LeBlanc had his comments at the 2006 TDf presentation about the dark ages shoved back down his throat with the report.


And the USA has made its mark on the TDf..... The US riders have won at least half of them in the past 20 years. To a good US rider, the July event is nothing but a annual ride around France.

Wolf, c'mon man : you're getting carried away here.

Cycling is a minority sport in most countries outside of Italy/France/Spain/Belgium and possibly Holland.

Very few non-cycling fans from countries other than the ones I listed above, know anything about the sport.
Ullrich is as unknown here in ireland - as Lance Armstrong.

Your point about the TDF going beyond it's traditional boundaries because of LA is incorrect.

The USA, a non-traditional cycling country - had riders coming to the TDF long before Armstrong.
Boyer, Ochowicz, Seven-11, LeMond, Hampsten were well in train before LA ever appeared.

Ireland - another non-traditional cycling nation - had Elliot, Kelly, Roche, Kimmage, Laurence Roche, Martin Earley in the TDF long before LA ever appeared.

You cannot state that cycling's profile improved in non-traditional countries because of Armstrong.
Lots of non-traditional countries were sending riders to the TDF before LA appeared.
Australia provided Phil Anderson, Neil Stephens, Danny Clark etc.

Eastern block - another non traditional location - provided riders to the sport long before Armstrong appeared.

I think you're getting carried away as to the extent of Armstrong's influence.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Oi ! Don't forget Phil Andersen and Allan Pieper who were known as the "foreign legionnaires" as they were the first non-Europeans in the peleton.

Phil Andersen was the first rider to use an agent to negotiate his contract with his team. LeMond soon followed and the rest is history.

Wolf, c'mon man : you're getting carried away here.

Cycling is a minority sport in most countries outside of Italy/France/Spain/Belgium and possibly Holland.

Very few non-cycling fans from countries other than the ones I listed above, know anything about the sport.
Ullrich is as unknown here in ireland - as Lance Armstrong.

Your point about the TDF going beyond it's traditional boundaries because of LA is incorrect.

The USA, a non-traditional cycling country - had riders coming to the TDF long before Armstrong.
Boyer, Ochowicz, Seven-11, LeMond, Hampsten were well in train before LA ever appeared.

Ireland - another non-traditional cycling nation - had Elliot, Kelly, Roche, Kimmage, Laurence Roche, Martin Earley in the TDF long before LA ever appeared.

You cannot state that cycling's profile improved in non-traditional countries because of Armstrong.
Lots of non-traditional countries were sending riders to the TDF before LA appeared.
Australia provided Phil Anderson, Neil Stephens, Danny Clark etc.

Eastern block - another non traditional location - provided riders to the sport long before Armstrong appeared.

I think you're getting carried away as to the extent of Armstrong's influence.

 

[limerickman]

Oi ! Don't forget Phil Andersen and Allan Pieper who were known as the "foreign legionnaires" as they were the first non-Europeans in the peleton.

Phil Andersen was the first rider to use an agent to negotiate his contract with his team. LeMond soon followed and the rest is history.

I listed Phil as Anderson - does he spell it as, Andersen?

Not forgetting other foreign riders : Tom Simpson, Sean Yates, Les Wood, Reg Harris, Colin Lewis, Brian Robinson, Barry Hoban, Chris Boardman, Graeme Obree, David Millar, bradley Wiggins, Vin Denson, Ken Laidlaw, Graham Jones.

I wonder how they managed to hear about the TDF - given it's "low profile"
(rolleyes).

 

[wolfix]

Oi ! Don't forget Phil Andersen and Allan Pieper who were known as the "foreign legionnaires" as they were the first non-Europeans in the peleton.

Phil Andersen was the first rider to use an agent to negotiate his contract with his team. LeMond soon followed and the rest is history.

I didn't mean that LA has influenced other non-cycling countries as far as the sport of cycling goes. But people know his name. They know who he is. His name goes beyond the typical boundaries of knowledgable cycling fans.
And to Leblanc in 1999 with the aftermath of the Festina scandal the LA story was helpful to deflect the attention away from the bad news.

 

[DV1976]

I didn't mean that LA has influenced other non-cycling countries as far as the sport of cycling goes. But people know his name. They know who he is. His name goes beyond the typical boundaries of knowledgable cycling fans.
.

True... He is quite well known even in Greece...

 

[cyclingheroes]

I listed Phil as Anderson - does he spell it as, Andersen?

Yep it's Anderson and coming from the Netherlands: i think Cycling is a major sport in Holland (but not a big as european football (US soccer) and probebly not even as big as speed ice-skating), lots of races are broadcasted live, lots of clubs and local races. Most people know (former)riders like Raas, Kneteman, Winnen, Zoetemelk, Boogerd, Dekker and Dekker and the big foreign names (Boonen, Ullrich, Basso, Armstrong, Zabel etc.). It's defenitly bigger as in Germany, where i live at the moment.

 

[tcklyde]

I didn't mean that LA has influenced other non-cycling countries as far as the sport of cycling goes. But people know his name. They know who he is. His name goes beyond the typical boundaries of knowledgable cycling fans.

I think this is getting to the main point. LA is very, very well known world wide, but he is not well known because he is a cyclist. He has transcended cycling and become celebrity. Basically, he is famous now simply because he is famous. He took his personal story (which is incredible) and his TdF wins (which were probably the product of doping -- but at this point, who wasn't doped?) and his charity work (which should be admired) and added a lot of publicity people.

A close analogy in the states would be to David Beckham. I know that Beckham plays football in Europe, that he is English, but that is it. I know nothing else about football, about the world cup, or about what team Beckham plays on. I cannot name a single other football player and none of the america world cup team (I know we have a team, but i don't know if we are still in the tournament). I don't know what position Beckham plays. Acutally, I can't think of a single football position other than goalie. But I know Beckham. I know he does or used to date one of the Spice Girls and I've seen him on the cover of lots of U.S. magazines. I think LA is probably the same way for a lot of people.

Bottom line: you can be crazy famous but that doesn't mean that people will care what you do or how you got famous. The best proof is this: LA is probably one of the top ten most famous people in the U.S. But the TdF was never televised on anything but obscure cable channels.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Beckham in British not English and he plays in Spain for Real Madrid. He used to play for Manchester United in the UK. He is the captain of the English football team. He is not the best player in Britain. That is Wayne Rooney and he has just come back to the World Cup from a foot injury. Expect him to do great things at the World Cup. He is young (21), brash, from the wrong-side of town and can barley string two words together and has already been caught visiting £50 a night hookers. However we love him in England because he is English and as foibles. That’s the difference between the US and UK. The UK love hard workers and ordinary blokes not celebrities like Beckham and Armstrong.

If our US forum go-ers are look for similarities be how US riders have changed the sport of cycling. One should look at NBA basketball. I realise that the NBA is just a show and the real deal is in College Basketball but NBA now has Italians, Slovenians, Serbians and an Australian was number 1 in the draft ! NBA has now become international sport and no longer a sport for white guys to watch a load of black guys jumping around. It’s a good thing having a European influence in basketball. Now don't tell me the US fans turned to college basketball from the European invasion in NBA ?

One final note; The US drew with Italy last night in a great match with 3 red cards in one game. You guys played well, had a fighting sprit to draw with one of the best footballing nations in the world. Well done !

I think this is getting to the main point. LA is very, very well known world wide, but he is not well known because he is a cyclist. He has transcended cycling and become celebrity. Basically, he is famous now simply because he is famous. He took his personal story (which is incredible) and his TdF wins (which were probably the product of doping -- but at this point, who wasn't doped?) and his charity work (which should be admired) and added a lot of publicity people.

A close analogy in the states would be to David Beckham. I know that Beckham plays football in Europe, that he is English, but that is it. I know nothing else about football, about the world cup, or about what team Beckham plays on. I cannot name a single other football player and none of the america world cup team (I know we have a team, but i don't know if we are still in the tournament). I don't know what position Beckham plays. Acutally, I can't think of a single football position other than goalie. But I know Beckham. I know he does or used to date one of the Spice Girls and I've seen him on the cover of lots of U.S. magazines. I think LA is probably the same way for a lot of people.

Bottom line: you can be crazy famous but that doesn't mean that people will care what you do or how you got famous. The best proof is this: LA is probably one of the top ten most famous people in the U.S. But the TdF was never televised on anything but obscure cable channels.

 

[mitosis]

I think this is getting to the main point. LA is very, very well known world wide, but he is not well known because he is a cyclist. He has transcended cycling and become celebrity. Basically, he is famous now simply because he is famous. He took his personal story (which is incredible) and his TdF wins (which were probably the product of doping -- but at this point, who wasn't doped?) and his charity work (which should be admired) and added a lot of publicity people.

A close analogy in the states would be to David Beckham. I know that Beckham plays football in Europe, that he is English, but that is it. I know nothing else about football, about the world cup, or about what team Beckham plays on. I cannot name a single other football player and none of the america world cup team (I know we have a team, but i don't know if we are still in the tournament). I don't know what position Beckham plays. Acutally, I can't think of a single football position other than goalie. But I know Beckham. I know he does or used to date one of the Spice Girls and I've seen him on the cover of lots of U.S. magazines. I think LA is probably the same way for a lot of people.

Bottom line: you can be crazy famous but that doesn't mean that people will care what you do or how you got famous. The best proof is this: LA is probably one of the top ten most famous people in the U.S. But the TdF was never televised on anything but obscure cable channels.

Armstrong is not famous in Australia for anything. Every heard of Steve Waugh?

 

[Ullefan]

Paris Hilton is more famous than Beckham and Armstrong combined.

 

[moviekindoflife]

i think the idea of famous has to be interpreted differently in different parts of the world because its mainly a cultural thing. In the US, the NBA and the NHL are very international sports these days. even baseball has a pretty big selection of players from latin american countries. in the US, the idea of fame doesn't rely completely on an athlete's ability to play sports, its all about human interest pieces. with the more popular sports (american football, basketball, baseball), there is a little more emphasis placed on the play. regardless all those sports are still riddled with controversies and news reports that are more interested in the human interest side.

Watchign the olympics in the US is a pretty big joke, because they don't show anything beside american athletes who have a story to tell. Having seen the olympics in the US and in Israel, the difference between presentation is noticeable. I think this is why in the US we have such a strange view on fame. Lance would have barely scratched the surface of fame without cancer and the subsequent recovery. the same goes for football in the US, the only thing i have heard about it recently is about a 15 year old kid who is now a professional.

as to lance and cycling as a whole, he has increased the interest in cycling in the US and is definitely the most famous cyclist in US history. but in the worldwide view, i can't imagine that he has the same level of recognition as he does in the US.

 

[limerickman]

Armstrong is not famous in Australia for anything. Every heard of Steve Waugh?

This is going completely off thread : Steve Waugh.
What more can I say? Superb batsman, brilliant captain and a great humanitarian.
For my birthday, my wife is buying me his biography.
For his work in India alone - he deserves great recognition.

But the greatest Aussie cricketer in this current generation is Shane Warne.
Probably in the top 5 Aussie cricketers of all time (a tough selection, Bradman, Lillee, Benaud, Warne and one other : McCabe, Trumper, Lindwall, Miller, Chappell)

 

[tcklyde]

One final note; The US drew with [/font][/color]Italy last night in a great match with 3 red cards in one game. You guys played well, had a fighting sprit to draw with one of the best footballing nations in the world. Well done !

Haha, yeah, after I wrote that post last night, I looked up some info on the world cup and saw a story about that match. A lot of U.S. "fans" were upset over the referee, though it appears that the game was called fairly...

Funny, I don't know how it is in Europe, but in the U.S. most people who watch the World Cup are either a) recent immigrants from a part of the world that likes football or b) intellectuals or other upper classes. Example: The New Republic, a politics and literary journals with a small, intellectual readership, has devoted a portion of their website to World Cup coverage. The idea that the same journal would do something like that for baseball or basketball is hilarious.

 

[mitosis]

My point was that noone from the US would likely have heard of Steve Waugh yet he is known and well respeced throughout the cricket world.

Which may well be a wider population than cycling when you take into account India (where he is considered a little less than a god because of his cricketting prowess and his work for charity - without any self promotion and garish publicity).

Despite his status around a large proportion of the world it would be a ridiculous claim to make that he has revolutionised cricket or that he has changed the game, as ridiculous as claiming LA has raised the profile of cycling (apart from in the US) and taken ownership of the TdeF.

There have been higher profiles than Steve Waugh's in cricket and Lance Armstrong's in cycling.

 

[cyclingheroes]

My inside contacts tell me that the rumour is: Discovery and TM are trying to get T. Dekker....

 

[mitosis]

My inside contacts tell me that the rumour is: Discovery and TM are trying to get T. Dekker....

If they are both after him he should be able to negotiate a high price.

My insiders (perhaps not as far inside or as well informed as yours) tell me that TM could use another strong domestique and DC are in need of a GC contender.

 

[whiteboytrash]

If they are both after him he should be able to negotiate a high price.

My insiders (perhaps not as far inside or as well informed as yours) tell me that TM could use another strong domestique and DC are in need of a GC contender.

Well DC need someone ! They got drilled by a second string CSC team at the TTT in Eindhoven yesterday. There season is nothing short of diabolical. My grandmother could ride better than DC and she doesn't have any legs !
___________________

Winner of a similar test at last month’s Giro d’Italia, CSC were never in danger of being upstaged by Discovery Channel as they were so memorably at last year’s Tour. The Discovery line-up of Slava Ekimov, Stijn Devolder, Michael Barry, Vladimir Gusev, George Hincapie, Leif Hoste, Egoi Martinez and Yaroslav Popovych also featured many of their Tour riders.

1 Team CSC (Den) 45km in 52.28
2 Discovery Channel (USA) 0.42
3 Gerolsteiner (Ger) 0.55
4 Phonak (Swi) 1.25
5 Davitamon-Lotto (Bel) 1.31
6 Rabobank (Hol) 1.34
7 Liquigas (Ita) 1.56
8 T-Mobile (Ger) 2.09
9 Cofidis (Fra) 2.18
10 Ag2r (Fra) 2.24

 

[cyclingheroes]

Well.... Riis was pretty angry after the TTT because non of the other teams took the TTT serious (that's what Riis said). I don't think the TTT result says anything at all... but i do think DC is in disarray... but for other reasons, it's abig mistake not to give Savoldelli the support he needs... with enough support he COULD (with about 10 other riders..) come on the podium... But it's over, Paolo will leave for Lampre.

Well DC need someone ! They got drilled by a second string CSC team at the TTT in Eindhoven yesterday. There season is nothing short of diabolical. My grandmother could ride better than DC and she doesn't have any legs !
___________________

Winner of a similar test at last month’s Giro d’Italia, CSC were never in danger of being upstaged by Discovery Channel as they were so memorably at last year’s Tour. The Discovery line-up of Slava Ekimov, Stijn Devolder, Michael Barry, Vladimir Gusev, George Hincapie, Leif Hoste, Egoi Martinez and Yaroslav Popovych also featured many of their Tour riders.

1 Team CSC (Den) 45km in 52.28
2 Discovery Channel (USA) 0.42
3 Gerolsteiner (Ger) 0.55
4 Phonak (Swi) 1.25
5 Davitamon-Lotto (Bel) 1.31
6 Rabobank (Hol) 1.34
7 Liquigas (Ita) 1.56
8 T-Mobile (Ger) 2.09
9 Cofidis (Fra) 2.18
10 Ag2r (Fra) 2.24