Discovery in disarray.... ?



limerickman said:
You forgot to mention - that it was DC who bought Hoste from Davitamon.

Regarding Demol - he won P-R : I don't know if it was a fluke or not.
It's immaterial quite frankly.

But now that you're using ancient history to try to do down a DC DS - do you have anything to say about Bruyneel's wheelsucking victory in the 1995 TDF in Liege?

Wait a minute ! Didn't Hincapie employ the same tactics with OP in last years
TDF?

It's all becoming clearer now.

Yes, Bruynell wheel sucked Indurain in Liege. On the other hand, he was the only rider strong enough and smart enough to go with him. Typically the yellow jersey, or in this cae the rider getting the yellow jersey, shares the spoils. I dont think Bruynell could have taken turns anyway but was directed not to by his DS on ONCE.
Yes Indurain was upset. Yes it was Bruyneel's home country not Indurains. Big deal.
 
bobke said:
Yes, Bruynell wheel sucked Indurain in Liege. On the other hand, he was the only rider strong enough and smart enough to go with him. Typically the yellow jersey, or in this cae the rider getting the yellow jersey, shares the spoils. I dont think Bruynell could have taken turns anyway but was directed not to by his DS on ONCE.
Yes Indurain was upset. Yes it was Bruyneel's home country not Indurains. Big deal.

.....the same tactics that Hincapie employed with Oscar Pereiro in the TDF last year.

Your selective recall of history - reminds me of Subaru.
You're not Subaru are you, Bobke?

Throwing out wild conspiracy theories about how Belgian DS's look after Belgian rider from other teams - smacks of Subaru.
Are you Subaru? 'Cause I haven't made up my mind about you and your input here, quite frankly.
 
You know, perhaps we should change this thread to T-Mobile in disarray. Afterall, they have just gotten rid of the two riders who won the most races for them last year (Zabel, Vino) and JU doens't look like he's doing too well. On top of that the rest of the team hasn't really pulled very many results yet either......
Or maybe it should be Ag2r in disarray, one rider has 5 PT points and they have 26 team points, oh dear. Bouyges Telecom aren't doing too well either.

And so on and so forth, like no British rider has a Pro Tour point yet this season, and they didn't get any last season either.

Why are we talking about Discovery being in disarray when compared to many other teams on the pro-tour they are doing very well?
 
T-mobile is expected to be in disarray.... We can expect nothing else from them until the TDf this year. Vino left because he caused disarray. Zabel on the other hand went away becuase of the disarray.
The amazing thing is this ....... JU has came in second place many times in spite of stupid management, bad decisions on his part, and showing up at the TDF to get his training kilos in for the year..... And he still places second.
 
wolfix said:
T-mobile is expected to be in disarray.... We can expect nothing else from them until the TDf this year. Vino left because he caused disarray. Zabel on the other hand went away becuase of the disarray.
The amazing thing is this ....... JU has came in second place many times in spite of stupid management, bad decisions on his part, and showing up at the TDF to get his training kilos in for the year..... And he still places second.

C'mon fellas - Musette made the same comment a couple of weeks ago and when I posted the entire palmares of TMO since 1997 : well, lets just say
everything went very very quiet.

Vino was quite happy to remain at TMO sinc early 2000's : Zabel would still be there if he had his way, and JU's never wanted to leave TMO.

This year will spell trouble for TMO : but what team could cope with the loss of two world class proven winners in Zabel and Vino?
I say no team could go on as before given that level of talent leaving it.

The situation is different over at DC - that team was built to work for one rider.
That rider has retired - and now DC are in some disarray becuase they've got to try to be a different team.

This season DC
 
limerickman said:
You're not Subaru are you, Bobke?
Their twin status has been confirmed several times. They are one and the same.
What is particularly funny is when one ego compliments the posts of the other ego!!!
 
patch70 said:
Their twin status has been confirmed several times. They are one and the same.
What is particularly funny is when one ego compliments the posts of the other ego!!!
I just want to know if he uses different computers, has two browsers open that are logged in under different names, or whether they are all alter egos of musette. If that was the case, the only question would be the true gender of this multinamed poster.
 
patch70 said:
Their twin status has been confirmed several times. They are one and the same.
What is particularly funny is when one ego compliments the posts of the other ego!!!
Are you suggesting hombre and I are chimeras?
I will not tolerate such nonsense especially from Dr Patch Adams who knows btter, and given hombre's inane posts here I can only hope he is a vanishing twin.
 
bobke said:
Are you suggesting hombre and I are chimeras?
I will not tolerate such nonsense especially from Dr Patch Adams who knows btter, and given hombre's inane posts here I can only hope he is a vanishing twin.
I just wish you would stop these two characters from talking to each other
 
limerickman said:
The silence is deafening because most of the DC support is American-based and they're trying to sleep off the hangover from yesterday!

Heh, you know you will never benefit from my silence for long. I was just on vacation, and without ready computer access, which obviously I have regained. ;) I will always be around to continue to point out interesting aspects of TM's failures and DC's successes.

I should note that, even DC's relatively quiet season in terms of wins so far, they are doing better than TM! Who can controvert that? :p TM couldn't even win the Rund um Koln, won by Milram! :D Thank goodness O Pollack won 2 stages at T of CA (just like, of course Hincapie). Otherwise TM would be in even worse position. :cool:
 
I know that this may not have been pointed out too you but there are more teams in the ProTour than just DC and TM. Gerolsteiner, Quick Step, Lampre, Liguigas to name but a few. Maybe you should branch out and have a look at how they are doing.
 
Discovery not in disarray ? I'll let Paolo Savoldelli tell the story... Savoldelli comments in May's ProCycling magazine about Tom Danielson tells the story:

"Danielson's a young rider who is physically gifted....but also a rider who makes loads of mistakes because he lacks the basic knowledge and knowledge which comes with years of cycling"..... "He doesn't 'read' a race like he should and still wastes loads of energy in the peleton. Unfortunately, physical strength isn't all that you need do well in a three week race..."

What is going on here ? Bruynnel is trumpeting Danielson whilst Yates is confident in 2 time winner Savoldelli..... this is in strark constrast to CSC where Scott Sunderland and Riis have a firm understanding and now have the results on the board in classics and soon the Grand Tours. Discovery are talk talk talk but CSC are getting the job done. They need to sort this out.. it can't go on like this or the team will implode beyond return....
 
whiteboytrash said:
Discovery not in disarray ? I'll let Paolo Savoldelli tell the story... Savoldelli comments in May's ProCycling magazine about Tom Danielson tells the story:

"Danielson's a young rider who is physically gifted....but also a rider who makes loads of mistakes because he lacks the basic knowledge and knowledge which comes with years of cycling"..... "He doesn't 'read' a race like he should and still wastes loads of energy in the peleton. Unfortunately, physical strength isn't all that you need do well in a three week race..."

What is going on here ? Bruynnel is trumpeting Danielson whilst Yates is confident in 2 time winner Savoldelli..... this is in strark constrast to CSC where Scott Sunderland and Riis have a firm understanding and now have the results on the board in classics and soon the Grand Tours. Discovery are talk talk talk but CSC are getting the job done. They need to sort this out.. it can't go on like this or the team will implode beyond return....
What is it with your fascination with DC? Are you a closet DC fan? You miss LA dont you? I can tell.

Shouldnt you be worrying about "el gordo" and the forthcoming T Mobile meltdown in the Grand Tours?
 
The problem with Disco is that, unlike most teams, there has never been a clear successor to Armstrong - all their eggs were firmly in that one basket - unlike T-Mobile (Riis then Ullrich) or Banesto (Delgado then Indurain then Olano) for example.

Presumably this is something to do with Armstrong being in the unique position of owning the team he rode for.
 
This was a function of many things:

-- LA did own the team he rode for, but also his performance in the TdF was so dominant, and his chances of winning so good, that it was clear USPS/DC had to follow the "tried and true" strategy of everybody riding for LA and the team focusing on the Tour. Bruyneel's strategy of having everybody ride for LA also meant that, at least prior to 2005, people knew that they shouldn't even be trying for personal achievements at the Tour such as stage wins (unless LA were to see that he had a sufficient cushion and race circumstances might permit LA to offer that prospect to a domestique, as in Landis in his last Tour with USPS).

-- Because USPS/DC was such a dominant and visible team in the peloton, many domestiques who did well supporting LA got financial lucrative offers from other teams (sometimes involving team leadership or co-leadership or the possibility thereof much faster than before LA would retire at USPS/DC). It is because precisely because USPS/DC LA domestiques get such good training and have such benefits of high visibility that they get recruited away (see Leipheimer, Landis and many others). Also, other DSs probably recognize by now that the USPS/DCs have a pretty good system for identifying talent in key lieutenants.

-- Somebody who can come along and win a Tour is not going to come along very frequently. So, it cannot be said that DC hasn't been looking. They have been trying to develop Popo, whom they tried to get onto the team several years before he actually joined. Bruyneel has very clear views of whom he tink s is talented, and I think it sometimes takes a while for them to get that person on their team. For example, Bruyneel and LA have been trying to get Savoldelli on the team for years. The Il Falco bio talks about how that rider has long been "coveted" by Bruyneel ("covet" connotes a strong and long-held desire).

-- The Indurain/Olano example is perhaps not the best one, because Olano was never as strong as Indurain. The Riis/JU example is also not too apt, because Riis didn't dominate multiple TdFs like LA and Indurain did. Also, obviously, JU's performance, while good in objective terms, can hardly be viewed as being the model of what Bruyneel is striving for.

-- Bruyneel is also suffering from the aging of some of his key TdF domestiques and stars. That was a function of his needing to keep them around to continue to support LA. But Bruyneel recruited in a way for 2006 that shows he is looking at the long run. He did not spend big money on anybody, although he did try to recruit Basso. He is building a domestique team (including climbers) to support his next young TdF contender -- likely Popo (not necessarily this year, in terms of podium, although that is possible). He already has Benjamin Noval for a person who has proven he can ride in front as rouleur and in the very early mountains for very long periods. He added Egoi Martinez as climbing support in 2006, and may be seeing whether Trent Lowe can improve his climbing. He might be able to cajole Danielson to becoming climbing support for Popo in the Tour in later years, when Danielson participates in the Tour and gets some GT experience under his belt.
 
musette said:
This was a function of many things:

-- LA did own the team he rode for, but also his performance in the TdF was so dominant, ..................

.....to the deteriment of his fellow team members and to the deteriment of USPS/DC chances in all other races throughout the season.




musette said:
-- Because USPS/DC was such a dominant and visible team in the peloton, many domestiques who did well supporting LA got financial lucrative offers from other teams...........

That's **** and you know it.

USPS/DC weren't visible for much of the cycling season.

And if domestiques were so well paid - how come talented cyclists left USPS/DC over money?

Your posts aren't adding anything to the thread Musette.


musette said:
-- The Indurain/Olano example is perhaps not the best one, because Olano was never as strong as Indurain. The Riis/JU example is also not too apt, because Riis didn't dominate multiple TdFs like LA and Indurain did. Also, obviously, JU's performance, while good in objective terms, can hardly be viewed as being the model of what Bruyneel is striving for.

No one claimed that Olano was as strong as Indurain.

Not withstanding the fact that Indurain and Olano never cycled together as a team - except when racing for Spain in Columbia in 1995.
But then again - you don't appear to know that they never cycled on the same team.

Riis/Ullrich partnership last 3 years : in that time they won two T'DF : won three T'sDF team competitions.
By any objective account that partnership did work.


musette said:
-- Bruyneel is also suffering from the aging of some of his key TdF domestiques and stars. That was a function of his needing to keep them around to continue to support LA. But Bruyneel recruited in a way for 2006 that shows he is looking at the long run. He did not spend big money on anybody, although he did try to recruit Basso. He is building a domestique team (including climbers) to support his next young TdF contender -- likely Popo (not necessarily this year, in terms of podium, although that is possible). He already has Benjamin Noval for a person who has proven he can ride in front as rouleur and in the very early mountains for very long periods. He added Egoi Martinez as climbing support in 2006, and may be seeing whether Trent Lowe can improve his climbing. He might be able to cajole Danielson to becoming climbing support for Popo in the Tour in later years, when Danielson participates in the Tour and gets some GT experience under his belt.


Conjecture.
 
I think Frank Schlek sums it up:

"CSC is the best team in the world," said Schleck, "and we're not only team-mates, but we're great friends."

They are not slaves ala USPS but friends... what a team and everyone gets a chance to win there race.

musette said:
This was a function of many things:

-- LA did own the team he rode for, but also his performance in the TdF was so dominant, and his chances of winning so good, that it was clear USPS/DC had to follow the "tried and true" strategy of everybody riding for LA and the team focusing on the Tour. Bruyneel's strategy of having everybody ride for LA also meant that, at least prior to 2005, people knew that they shouldn't even be trying for personal achievements at the Tour such as stage wins (unless LA were to see that he had a sufficient cushion and race circumstances might permit LA to offer that prospect to a domestique, as in Landis in his last Tour with USPS)..
 
thebluetrain said:
What is it with your fascination with DC? Are you a closet DC fan? You miss LA dont you? I can tell.

Shouldnt you be worrying about "el gordo" and the forthcoming T Mobile meltdown in the Grand Tours?
You should start a thread called: "T-Mobile in disarray….?" if you wish to comment on T-Mobile..... this thread is about how Discovery have lost there way.
 
limerickman said:
USPS/DC weren't visible for much of the cycling season.
They were visable in Paris-Roubaix, but not on the top of the podium.... but on the podium. They had the two best podium spots in cycling ..... Top of the podium in the TDF and the Giro.
They were as well rounded as any team. At the end of the year they had 2 riders in the top 10 of the UCIProtour standings to match CSC and QS.
They were the dominant Grand Tour team and they had a rider in Hincapie who had a shot at the podium in the Classics.
 
wolfix said:
They were visable in Paris-Roubaix, but not on the top of the podium.... but on the podium. They had the two best podium spots in cycling ..... Top of the podium in the TDF and the Giro.
They were as well rounded as any team. At the end of the year they had 2 riders in the top 10 of the UCIProtour standings to match CSC and QS.
They were the dominant Grand Tour team and they had a rider in Hincapie who had a shot at the podium in the Classics.

Wolf - they weren't visible for much of the season when they were solely working for Armstrong.

I agree they're more visible this season and that is a good thing.