Cycing Training and Sex Drive

[Don Shipp]

That's why my ride hurt so much yesterday. I got about 4 hours with the dog barking and all. But after the ride I slept a full 8 hours and now feel terrific.
But this work schedule explains to you why I have to train really hard. I know Roger Bannister did just that. He would run on a treadmill till he winded up being knocked off it to the floor. Bannister lived in London same as you and only had about an hour and a half to train at nights.
Myself, what I do when time is short is ride to this hill I know of. It's not very steep but maybe a 14 per cent grade or something like that. I get into a big gear and start climbing with everything I have - and the hill is agonsingly long and winding.
This is what I call the kickstart to the run as by the time I'm at the top, I'm gasping for air.
It's at that point the real ride begins on flats and medium slopes. I'll keep my eyes on the bike computer and give it my all right round the course. I time myself from point to point. I struggle to keep the computer at the speed I hope to maintain. By the end of the run, I'm pancaked. But you know, a recent study-group in a university over here used this similar system I adapted to and they claim it works really well. They claim intensity is the way to go if you're a busy person and just want to get your training done and dusted on a busy day.
But if it turns out all of this training and the sleep deficit is sapping me, I'll have to maybe cut back or periodise more. I'll find out more soon.

How old was Bannister when he was having to train so hard?
High intensity training requires at least two rest days after each session. Do you cycle to work as well?

 

[Carrera]

Thanks, Flyer. It sounds like there's a lot of the finer details about cycling you could teach me. I'm aware my system is a bit crude and far from ideal. But I wouldn't say I train like that all the time and I do have rest days. As I'm so busy at work and everything I don't get to spend much time with other riders who could take a look at my overall performance and give me a few pointers.
So far, I seem to have accomplished a fair bit of power on the big climbs since that's what I do most. I'm lucky to live here because we have plenty of decent climbs in the area. But I'm slow on the flat, as you can imagine.
The other week I astonished myself. There was a small group of roadies making their way up a climb and I was on one of my blitz runs. As I closed in on the group, I figured I'd just ride on their wheel, provided the speed was O.K. But to my surprise it was too slow for me, so I said hello and sped past in a big gear. I was expecting the guys to ride on my wheel but when I looked behind a few minutes later, there was just me there. Either they were just having an easy day or I was going really fast for that particular stretch.
I don't feel overtrained at present as I feel really good on the bike (provided I sleep). Best of all, my knees aren't acheing any more and my old hip pain has gone.
Even so, I figure it's time I took a break and reduced intensity dramatically for a given time. You can't pound away indefinitely and it's a mistake that's easy to make. I'd be interested to know, though, if any other guys on the forum feel they may be overdoing the intensity stuff or how people feel about that kind of schedule.

Carrera:

If what you just described is a typical training session, I have only one word of advice;

STOP!

Track riders---(the fastest riders in cycling) would consider such a session guaranteed to train your body to be: 1) slow 2) sluggish 3) unable to respond to pace changes 4) fatigued 5) poor quality w/o any emphasis other than lactic tresehold and slow cadence 6) trained for slow finishing vrs a fast finish at end of all the drills.

Your sex drive may be connected to this cycle as well. (I believe it is a possibilty)

Road riders might do this type of work out a couple time per week if they do not race that weekend. Such a workout showcases your aerobic and anaerobic power, and some sustainable power too---but does not develop it. (building high fitness and showing it off are two entirely different activities)

But what about recovery in between the hard efforts?

When does your pulse rate drop way down? Is your power-off rest period 2-10 times the 'power-on' period. Do you mix it up or have a standard protocol, or both? Is intensity at Max, near max, or aerobic frontier cruise pace?

Without some rest breaks in between hard efforts, each of your subsequent efforts will be become weaker and weaker. Until you limp home.

You described a typical hammer-head style workout. And hammerheads do not perform at high levels.

No sprint, so high speed, no cat-like reflexs.

It is those things which must be factored in to your drills each week. Not more of the same lactate 3-4 hour endurance pain fests.

If you make some of these changes I strongly believe that 1) you will recover quicker post workout, 2) be more athletic 3) have a wider range of power output, low, middle and top end 4) enjoy cycling more as your versatility expands.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Carrera]

Unfortunately I don't drive a car and am too nervous to drive. So, I cycle everywhere. Without my bike I'm done for. So, yes, I cycle to work and am literally never apart from my bike. It's either that or catch buses or walk e.t.c.

How old was Bannister when he was having to train so hard?
High intensity training requires at least two rest days after each session. Do you cycle to work as well?

 

[Carrera]

Bannister was interesting in his approach. He didn't train as hard as the Australian John Landy but he beat Landy when they both ran a mile under 4 minutes in the fifties. Bannister only trained about an hour or so after work but Landy did a huge amount.

How old was Bannister when he was having to train so hard?
High intensity training requires at least two rest days after each session. Do you cycle to work as well?

 

[lumpy]

Hey Carrera, how's your diet? I wonder if it could be off a bit considering the stresses you put your body through.

Are you getting enough protein?

 

[Flyer]

As for diet I recommend the same as the training drills, that is: variety, variety and more variety!

Mediteranean style diet of the freshest most organic foods. Live on a farm---or near one?

And lay off the hills. (cut back some)

next time ride tempo with those guys instead of riding away alone.

One on my Cat 1 friends NEVER does intensive hill climbs alone---always in a small group of 3-6.

Because, in a bike race you will NEVER be alone on a climb--not until 1,000 meters or less to go---and only if a KOM or finish line is painted on the summit or at the very bottom of the descent.

Being able to ride tempo (other people's tempo) is a critically important skill and fitness element too.

It is not so easy to ride at different tempos---but it is a sign of a very fit man. You can always go hard the last 3-5 minutes if you absolutely feel the need to blitz it.

The shorter the effort, the more intensive it can be.

eg: full on sprint~~~11-13 seconds

a pursuit~~~4-5 minutes

a mini proloque style ITT: 10 minutes

a TT~~~ 20-30 minutes

a 40 K~~~ 50-60 minutes.

Mix it up and find some partners out on the road when you can.

Cheers!

Thanks, Flyer. It sounds like there's a lot of the finer details about cycling you could teach me. I'm aware my system is a bit crude and far from ideal. But I wouldn't say I train like that all the time and I do have rest days. As I'm so busy at work and everything I don't get to spend much time with other riders who could take a look at my overall performance and give me a few pointers.
So far, I seem to have accomplished a fair bit of power on the big climbs since that's what I do most. I'm lucky to live here because we have plenty of decent climbs in the area. But I'm slow on the flat, as you can imagine.
The other week I astonished myself. There was a small group of roadies making their way up a climb and I was on one of my blitz runs. As I closed in on the group, I figured I'd just ride on their wheel, provided the speed was O.K. But to my surprise it was too slow for me, so I said hello and sped past in a big gear. I was expecting the guys to ride on my wheel but when I looked behind a few minutes later, there was just me there. Either they were just having an easy day or I was going really fast for that particular stretch.
I don't feel overtrained at present as I feel really good on the bike (provided I sleep). Best of all, my knees aren't acheing any more and my old hip pain has gone.
Even so, I figure it's time I took a break and reduced intensity dramatically for a given time. You can't pound away indefinitely and it's a mistake that's easy to make. I'd be interested to know, though, if any other guys on the forum feel they may be overdoing the intensity stuff or how people feel about that kind of schedule.

 

[frenchyge]

Being able to ride tempo (other people's tempo) is a critically important skill and fitness element too.

It is not so easy to ride at different tempos---but it is a sign of a very fit man.

You've mentioned this before, can you please explain it? What is it about being able to ride at different speeds (e.g. slower than one's normal pace) that indicates higher fitness? Are there people that are *not* able to do this?

Do you have coaching or physiology background and experience that you would care to share?

 

[Flyer]

Did you just stutter?

Anyway, doping confusion aside--let's review fitness performance. The goal is to adapt to a 'large range of areobic and anaerobic power outputs'. Not a narrow range of power----but a very broad range.

If you used pulse rate, we have Zone 1 (easy) 2, 3, 4, 5a (super hard) 5b maximum to exhaustion or failure

Winning racers train at ALL these levels, not just zone
3, 4 & 5--like so many novices. Many folks cannot efficiently ride tempo in lower PR ranges.

In a bike race, tempo changes constantly, and athletes who respond utilizing the least energy tend to reserve the most power for the few key intensive moments---when the actual 'selections' are made---then again later in order to 'close out the race for a victory or top placing'.

That means responding to a big acceleration without breaking a sweat of panicing. Closing gaps in zone 3, and not redlining it in zone 5 for every meaningless attack.

Riders who cannot adapt well (due to a lack of training at lower intensities) at zone 2 & 3 may run out of gas when the hammer really drops.

Most recreational riders I run into on the road are forever pushing my pace---presumably because they think I am so strong--that they must impress me---but when the road kicks up---or later on in a long climb--or on rollers, I hit the turbo and they blow chunks. (Paradoxically, I often feel that they are riding too hard for me)

But they cannot react with sufficient top end power because they are forever riding around in zone 4. They are weak in power PR zones 2, 3 and 5. In fact they have very little power in zone 5. No punch.

My belief is that a fitter person will have the greater performance results---and score well on a stress test (Conconi or VO2 Max, etc...) That person will have a broader power range than a zone 4 'hammer head' style athlete. (That's if fitness is measured by sustainable and increasing power outputs)

I hope this explanation helped.

Pros who dope and train this way--well, the results can be even more dramatic. Nuff said.

As far as credentials--I have some decent ones. I have won over 100 bike races, 50 motorcycle races, and have been coached by famous trainers, World, National and Olympic Champions.

So I figure I know a few things re: sport. Good and bad, both the beauty and the beast.

You've mentioned this before, can you please explain it? What is it about being able to ride at different speeds (e.g. slower than one's normal pace) that indicates higher fitness? Are there people that are *not* able to do this?

Do you have coaching or physiology background and experience that you would care to share?

 

[frenchyge]

Winning racers train at ALL these levels, not just zone
3, 4 & 5--like so many novices. Many folks cannot efficiently ride tempo in lower PR ranges.

So you're recommending *training* in zones 1 & 2. Isn't that area typically considered recovery? Can you post a link which shows the benefits of training in those zones? Like this one: http://www.fascatcoaching.com/intervaltypes.html

In a bike race, tempo changes constantly, and athletes who respond utilizing the least energy tend to reserve the most power for the few key intensive moments---when the actual 'selections' are made---then again later in order to 'close out the race for a victory or top placing'.

That means responding to a big acceleration without breaking a sweat of panicing. Closing gaps in zone 3, and not redlining it in zone 5 for every meaningless attack.

This is all explained by having a high aerobic power level available and riding well below the anerobic threshold because of it, not by training for low power racing.

Riders who cannot adapt well (due to a lack of training at lower intensities) at zone 2 & 3 may run out of gas when the hammer really drops.

They can't keep up because they haven't trained sufficiently at high intensity, not low.

Most recreational riders I run into on the road are forever pushing my pace---presumably because they think I am so strong--that they must impress me---but when the road kicks up---or later on in a long climb--or on rollers, I hit the turbo and they blow chunks. (Paradoxically, I often feel that they are riding too hard for me)

But they cannot react with sufficient top end power because they are forever riding around in zone 4. They are weak in power PR zones 2, 3 and 5. In fact they have very little power in zone 5. No punch.

As you pointed out in your previous post, there is an inverse relationship between intensity and the duration of exercise. You don't have to train specifically at low power to be able to ride at low power. (http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3232) They have no punch because they haven't trained at high power. That much I understand from following other threads and articles.

My belief is that a fitter person will have the greater performance results---and score well on a stress test (Conconi or VO2 Max, etc...) That person will have a broader power range than a zone 4 'hammer head' style athlete. (That's if fitness is measured by sustainable and increasing power outputs).

Those tests don't have anything to do with 'broadness of power' or low power efficiency because of their short durations. Heck, you'd probably have to test someone for 12 hrs to determine their zone 2 efficiency, and who'd really care anyway since few amateur races are longer than 3-4 hrs, which is within lactate threshold range for most people.

You've mentioned the need for recovery, which I understand, but I'm still not sure of the benefits of *training* at low power or how someone who is capable of riding well in zone 4 would have a hard time riding in zone 2.

 

[Flyer]

I do not have links which solve the worlds problems--doping, wallstreet fraud and training ideas. I wish I did.

I just have trial & error experiences, validations, and expert advice passed along to me by others at higher levels and talent.

If you don't understand why building the motor from the ground up works---or are too determined to not to consider that low zone training is as every bit as critical as the higher zones----fine. Do it your way, maybe your way works for you?

I know an Olympic Gold Metal winner who one made a suggestion to a weekend road rider re: his poor position on his expensive bike---and he was very polite about it. The Fred told him to ******** and asked, 'Who the hell did he think he was, an Olympic Champion? How ironic that indeed he was? No unsolicited advice has been handed out since.

If you have ever done a stress test, incuding lactic blood draws, the low-zone power efficiency is clear and compelling. the longer you can produce power at low band ranges (zone 1, 2, 3) the longer you will stay in the test---assuming that your top end is trained too. Al the levels are important.

If rider can cruise along in zone 2 at 250 watts, think of what they can do at zone 4 & 5 (380-450 watts?)

Racers have schedules. Periods of rest, rebuilding, ramping up and then a weekly race calender. Some folks race 3-4 times per week if they do both track and road. After 7 months of racing, a transition to rebuilding begins again.

Recreation riders are not training for a competition schedule--so in some way they must fight off the urge to overtrain in narrow bands.

In any case, whomever invests the greatest time (hours) into Zones 1, 2, 3 will be able to achieve the greatest top end performance later in their build out. Zone 4 & 5 and snappy sprinting repeats.

Those riders who choose to ignore (minimize or short cut) building up a quality base--(and all the attendent vast cardio vascular plumbing) will either 1) burn out sooner 2) never be able to pile on many intensive drills---because they cannot handle it, 3) achieve a mediocre performance level---which may or may not be 'better than last year'

In any event, few recreational riders & racers are patient and disciplined enough to do the necessary boring and tedious work at the lower zones. Too boring I guess. It's understandable.

LA has whole workouts where he is NOT allowed to exceed 140 bpm pulse rates--- and not on a recovery day. (5-7 hours) His max pulse rate must be 200ish I think, with an AT 193-197 bpm.

Again few people can handle spending 60 minutes at zone 2, let alone 5-7 hours.

In the end, you reap the harvest of the seeds that you plant.

I am not advocating eliminating zone 4 & 5 drills, but as a percentage of the total weekly workout hours I imagine they should not exceed 30% of the total exercise time.

Maybe less.

If you race, then it should be even less given that racing may be intensive time and not as structured (random vrs planned).

I see it as a pyramid---the bottom levels are zone 1 & 2 and they require the greatest time allocation.

Ciao

So you're recommending *training* in zones 1 & 2. Isn't that area typically considered recovery? Can you post a link which shows the benefits of training in those zones? Like this one: http://www.fascatcoaching.com/intervaltypes.html

This is all explained by having a high aerobic power level available and riding well below the anerobic threshold because of it, not by training for low power racing.

They can't keep up because they haven't trained sufficiently at high intensity, not low.

As you pointed out in your previous post, there is an inverse relationship between intensity and the duration of exercise. You don't have to train specifically at low power to be able to ride at low power. (http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3232) They have no punch because they haven't trained at high power. That much I understand from following other threads and articles.

Those tests don't have anything to do with 'broadness of power' or low power efficiency because of their short durations. Heck, you'd probably have to test someone for 12 hrs to determine their zone 2 efficiency, and who'd really care anyway since few amateur races are longer than 3-4 hrs, which is within lactate threshold range for most people.

You've mentioned the need for recovery, which I understand, but I'm still not sure of the benefits of *training* at low power or how someone who is capable of riding well in zone 4 would have a hard time riding in zone 2.

 

[frenchyge]

I do not have links which solve the worlds problems--doping, wallstreet fraud and training ideas. I wish I did.

Well, there are a lot of good ones out there. Here are a couple featuring the studies and guidance of some of the coaches and Phd's that frequent this forum:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern
(especially the table near the bottom)

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/intervaltypes.html

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3232
(especially the graph in the middle)

 

[Don Shipp]

Well, there are a lot of good ones out there. Here are a couple featuring the studies and guidance of some of the coaches and Phd's that frequent this forum:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern
(especially the table near the bottom)

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/intervaltypes.html

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3232
(especially the graph in the middle)

Carrera, have you checked these links yet?

 

[Carrera]

Folks, I'm presently swamped with work, doing crazy night shifts till Monday night which I have free.
I stopped training completely and am taking a well-earned rest. I'll resume and possibly restructure my training very shortly.
I found something odd. Seeing as I've been resting and napping and skipping my usual rides, my resting pulse in in the forties. I normally take my pulse a few hours after a hard ride and find it comparatively high. Now, it would appear my resting pulse has dramatically improved since the days when I started riding as someone who wasn't at all fit (cardio-wise). How have I winded up with a resting pulse in the forties (which seems to be to be pretty good).
I strongly suspect that the type of intensive training I've been doing over the weeks may possibly lower testosterone or cause slight fatigue and I need to study those articles I was forwarded. Maybe where I've been going wrong is by training flat out too often and not taking periodisation seriously enough.

 

[Don Shipp]

Folks, I'm presently swamped with work, doing crazy night shifts till Monday night which I have free.
I stopped training completely and am taking a well-earned rest. I'll resume and possibly restructure my training very shortly.
I found something odd. Seeing as I've been resting and napping and skipping my usual rides, my resting pulse in in the forties. I normally take my pulse a few hours after a hard ride and find it comparatively high. Now, it would appear my resting pulse has dramatically improved since the days when I started riding as someone who wasn't at all fit (cardio-wise). How have I winded up with a resting pulse in the forties (which seems to be to be pretty good).
I strongly suspect that the type of intensive training I've been doing over the weeks may possibly lower testosterone or cause slight fatigue and I need to study those articles I was forwarded. Maybe where I've been going wrong is by training flat out too often and not taking periodisation seriously enough.

A pulse rate of 40 is pretty good indeed. It is only when you take time to recover that you can get full benefit from hard training. But look again at the title of this thread that you started, how's your test levels now you aren't knocking yourself out all the time?

 

[Flyer]

You have the perfect opportunity to begin anew!

Getting a coach or visiting a velodrome on weekends would be helpful too.

All our best to you!

 

[Carrera]

It was right at the end of the 40 spectrum, just below 50.
Training is complicated and I'm a bit of an ignoramus when it comes to theory and science e.t.c. But Ric did once state that any exercise is better than nothing so, I guess with me, I'm willing and able to get out on the road, after a long night-shift, and get something done. As time is so short, I came up with this high-intensity method. It was either that, or nothing. I just don't have time to cycle for 4 hours a day and it's a miracle I get out at all.
I mentioned Roger Bannister as he had the same problem. Roger would work in a hospital all day while doing his medical training and exams. He was left with roughly one hour or so to train to beat the 4 minute mile. The Australian John Landy was training for hours, doing heaps of quarter miles and half miles round a track. Both Landy and Bannister trained so hard, they would collapse after the session.
With regard to cycling, a university in my area recently did a study comparing brief, high intensity cycling with lower intensity, long hours cycling training. I don't know the ins and outs of all the research but it was discovered the short, brief, intensity cycling had been as effective (with regards to general fitness).
But I don't know whether they recommended doing this all the time or just some of the time.
Anyway, I'm still resting but will ride tonight (rain seems to be sure to follow).

A pulse rate of 40 is pretty good indeed. It is only when you take time to recover that you can get full benefit from hard training. But look again at the title of this thread that you started, how's your test levels now you aren't knocking yourself out all the time?

 

[Don Shipp]

I mentioned Roger Bannister as he had the same problem. Roger would work in a hospital all day while doing his medical training and exams. He was left with roughly one hour or so to train to beat the 4 minute mile. The Australian John Landy was training for hours, doing heaps of quarter miles and half miles round a track. Both Landy and Bannister trained so hard, they would collapse after the session.
With regard to cycling, a university in my area recently did a study comparing brief, high intensity cycling with lower intensity, long hours cycling training. I don't know the ins and outs of all the research but it was discovered the short, brief, intensity cycling had been as effective (with regards to general fitness).
But I don't know whether they recommended doing this all the time or just some of the time.
Anyway, I'm still resting but will ride tonight (rain seems to be sure to follow).

How old was Bannister when he trained so hard?
Intense training requires substantial recovery time.

 

[Carrera]

I guess in his late twenties.
Bannister believed sports should be done as part of an overall, educational curriculum. He was an Oxford student back then. Bannister didn't want to spend his entire life training at the expense of education.
There was another athlete I admired called Mike Mentzer (not in Bannister's class, however). Mentzer was a bodybuider who had a PHD in philosophy but only trained one hour in the gym, and very intensely. The rest of the time, Mentzer studied.
So, I was surprised when I hear Bannister only ran for an hour or so, sometimes to failure on a treadmill.
Of course, Bannister was an amateur runner back in those days and admits it would be difficult to compete with professional athletes today. Lance does something like 4 - 5 hours a day riding and gets paid for it.

Bannister’s training was precise and high intensity but represented a small volume of the training of his competitors 50 years ago. Today his training is a mere fraction of what milers do.
"It’s interesting to note that even 50 years ago while Bannister was a top international runner, his training was often criticized for the same reasons –it was considered too little performed too infrequently. In addition, Bannister preferred to keep his own training records, monitor how he responded to training and change his training accordingly, and devise his own routines and schedule rather than have a coach perform these functions. Bannister’s approach to training was intelligent and personal. It’s interesting to note that 50 years ago Bannister also was criticized for not having a coach and often training alone."

How old was Bannister when he trained so hard?
Intense training requires substantial recovery time.

 

[Carrera]

I should add here, Bannister did use and profit from the advice of coaches.
Here is his philosophy to training. Bear in mind, he was a miler not a marathon runner:
(1)Fit training into your overall lifestyle and do not make training your total life style
(2)Understand the key training stimulus and revolve a training program around the key stimulus and your individual goals
(3)Keep training brief with days off for recovery
(4)Pay careful attention to how you respond to your training program and make appropriate adjustments
(5)Focus on small progressions in your training over an extended time
(6)Do not exhaust yourself from a training session or a group of training sessions
(7)Take short breaks from training but remain physically active

 

[Don Shipp]

I should add here, Bannister did use and profit from the advice of coaches.
Here is his philosophy to training. Bear in mind, he was a miler not a marathon runner:
(1)Fit training into your overall lifestyle and do not make training your total life style
(2)Understand the key training stimulus and revolve a training program around the key stimulus and your individual goals
(3)Keep training brief with days off for recovery
(4)Pay careful attention to how you respond to your training program and make appropriate adjustments
(5)Focus on small progressions in your training over an extended time
(6)Do not exhaust yourself from a training session or a group of training sessions
(7)Take short breaks from training but remain physically active

Well, that all sounds good to me.