Cycing Training and Sex Drive

[Don Shipp]

You have previously reprimanded Flyer for being off topic when he introduced drugs into the thread.

My response to Flyer was for post #25 not #30 where you claim he was specific. Specific he was indeed with #30 for a welcome, if not temporary, change.

Flyer will attempt to hijack a topic to run his (not mine) hobbyhorse. You will note that posts #4, #7, #13, (your) #16, #26 and #36 were indirectly or openly critical of his off topic change of direction.

His obsession with doping and his thread hijacking caused Cycling Forums to open a "Doping" category forum. I have no doubt that the category was recently closed down through Flyer's over zealous and unsubstantiated posts and his avoidance to debate. It had become Flyer's personal soapbox.

Back to the topic.

I had read some time ago that endurance riding of 7 plus hours a week without compensatory anaerobic hard exercise will affect testosterone levels (reduction).

Pre event sex will reduce male testosterone levels but, on the contrary, increase female testosterone levels (German study). That is levelling the playing field.

Two points...(for now)
Flyer made his own point. (A bit like having a signature but putting it first.) I thought that he had missed the point and said so.
Then he answered the OP and I agreed with his answer.
I am not naturally tactless but:- Carrera is 40 and works nights. His training level is high, now he has to decide what is important in his life.
There is enough information provided, even in this one thread, to give an idea as to the effort (and compromises) a competitor has to make.
He can be awesomely fit with a body that women crave and men envy, and still keep all that he has; or he can try and compete with younger men with fewer commitments in which case he will have have to make real sacrifices.
Flyer's concerns cannot be ignored in the light of Carrera's most recent postings.
Attempting to "normalise" testosterone levels temporarily reduced by overtraining will lead to a serious, irrepairable long-term harm. Allowing hormone levels to build up naturally will take a lot of training and a lot of recovery time.

As far as his libido is concerned, if he does include sufficient recovery time into his program and gets enough sleep, then strenuous exercise will increase testosterone as well as making him more fanciable.

 

[Flyer]

I guess you can't read!

A confessed doper was the root of the first post.

Get it through your thick skull.

When you quote a doper, the appropriate and responsible first response is to disclose that fact.

Context and avoidance of 'idiotic themes' like 'work ethic' and cycling success need to be properly balanced against the doper making those claims.

Care to explain your naive bias against proper doping disclosure when leaping to presumptuous judgments?

The OP asked "Has anyone on this forum ever experienced decreased libido while training very hard. Coincidence or lnked? " and Flyer's good answer (after half a dozen doping rants) is "don't work so hard?" Boy, that's a lot of buildup for that little gem.

Care to defend why he didn't just post his good answer first, and use the rest of his knowledge to start a new thread?

 

[Flyer]

Been subjected to false critisms and denials after posting public available and corroborated truths---especially at the AIS. Plenty of solid evidence presented----and ignored by those who hate ugly truths.

btw: You must be Carey Hall (steroid user)

Your rants all fall into proper place---along with your feeble attepts to discredit truthtellers.

Tous Dope----and you need no travel to France for good examples of it.

Don Shipp, I was not being specific about this thread. I was referring generally about Flyers near 1,000 posts to Cycling Forums.

Flyer has been repeatedly criticised for avoiding questions on his "facts". Anyone who disagrees with his "fact" drawn opinions are one of or all of being an apologist, a doper by association and/or part of the omerta vowed conspiracy.

The relevance to this thread is that in his opening reference in the part of the post I quoted (edit: #25 (not #30) doper/apologist), the statement is drawn from unsubstantiated allegations he has been echoing on other threads.

Flyer must be omniscient as he has this innate ability to read between lines and/or see what is not there. I think there is a couch in his future!

 

[VeloFlash]

I guess you can't read!

A confessed doper was the root of the first post.

Get it through your thick skull.

When you quote a doper, the appropriate and responsible first response is to disclose that fact.

Context and avoidance of 'idiotic themes' like 'work ethic' and cycling success need to be properly balanced against the doper making those claims.

Care to explain your naive bias against proper doping disclosure when leaping to presumptuous judgments?

Your first post never stated that a confessed doper was the basis of your post.

On the contrary, you stated without reference to your source:

"Top athletes and virtually all (100%) of paid athletes supplement testosterone hormones as a method of 'topping off their levels'."

In my tiny little mind does not that interpret that if all professional athletes are artificially boosting their testosterone levels then Peter Winnen is making a false statement of fact that there is an effective drop? It is a fact that testosterone levels will be reduced but only at aggregate endurance times longer than a stage race. I shall repeat that part of Carrera's post:

"Can very intensive cycling training lower testosterone levels in the body or decrease sex drive? I did read an article by Peter Winnen the Dutch rider who stated, in his day, pro-riders who pushed themselves to the limit would experience a drop in testosterone levels."

Is not this another Flyer contradiction?

 

[Flyer]

Good advice:

Carrera also mentioned he has time constraints and tends to train 'hard' on most of his outings.

Such habits can lead to burn out and chronic fatigue---wrecking the entire concept of proper recovery (when the actual strength gains are achieved)

So, his training habits need to be audited for proper variety. (every time out must be what is needed, not necessarily what your prefer to do---or what your buddies do)

eg: Group rides that degenerate into hammer sessions when it is a 'rest day' or easily spin that is needed.

Or long steep climbing when you raced the day before do not allow for a quality recovery.

If you are training for RAAM and need to adapt to exhaustion---well that is different. Of course 12 hours of sleep per day is best---and a saline feeds and B-12 injections too. Even if you do not use illegal methods, you will be slow on recovery if your do RAAM style mileage. That fresh feeling will be gone for a long while.

Veloflash yearns for anyone to be his ally to save his precious AIS which is to this very day embarrassed by the recent doping scandal and attempted murder/assualt of the 2004 Coach of the Year, just two weeks ago by one of their top alum sprinters.

Veloflash seeks to recruit anyone who may be annoyed with me.

Whatever, it will not change his doping scandal.

It is what it is. You cannot change the subject, nor hijack this tread into a recruiting attempt.

Thanks Don

I am not naturally tactless but:- Carrera is 40 and works nights. His training level is high, now he has to decide what is important in his life.
There is enough information provided, even in this one thread, to give an idea as to the effort (and compromises) a competitor has to make.
He can be awesomely fit with a body that women crave and men envy, and still keep all that he has; or he can try and compete with younger men with fewer commitments in which case he will have have to make real sacrifices.
Flyer's concerns cannot be ignored in the light of Carrera's most recent postings.
Attempting to "normalise" testosterone levels temporarily reduced by overtraining will lead to a serious, irrepairable long-term harm. Allowing hormone levels to build up naturally will take a lot of training and a lot of recovery time.

As far as his libido is concerned, if he does include sufficient recovery time into his program and gets enough sleep, then strenuous exercise will increase testosterone as well as making him more fanciable.

 

[VeloFlash]

Been subjected to false critisms and denials after posting public available and corroborated truths---especially at the AIS. Plenty of solid evidence presented----and ignored by those who hate ugly truths.

btw: You must be Carey Hall (steroid user)

Your rants all fall into proper place---along with your feeble attepts to discredit truthtellers.

Tous Dope----and you need no travel to France for good examples of it.

Flyer, I believe reference to the thread you hijacked to label the AIS as aiding and being compliant with doping reveals the following:

1. Despite numerous requests you failed to provide any "publicly available and corroborated truths."

2. No evidence of any kind whatsoever, solid or otherwise, was presented by yourself to support your opinions.

3. Consequently, there were no truthtellers to discredit unless you pigeonhole your "revelations" as being the truth. And you will further discredit yourself if you continue to express your extreme beliefs as being facts.

 

[Flyer]

VeloFlash, aka: Carey Hall:

You and Peter Winnen have much in common. You both seek to float advice under the guise of being helpful, yet all the while be deceptive.

In Winnen's case he sought to have the reader believe that he doped---only to normalize his hormone levels (testosterone the chief one)

But what of human Growth Hormones? Or Horse Growth Hormones if using an AIS dom room.

What of insulin?

What of other methods? Did he use EPO? Do we belive him? Some drugs, not all?

In your case---your seek to be considered a doping aware sophisticated cyclist, and yet you over-zealously defend an institution that has been public exposed and embarrassed by extensive doping by its top members and alumni. Including attempted murder. You ought to have the opposite view.

You have a problem. Go fix it---at the risk of NEVER qualifying for an Olympic final---or medal. But be proud you did the right thing. Otherwise protect the status quo and the Omerta.

You are not for real, not credible.

My posts are on the mark---yours are inconsistent and biased.

Get back to finding that EuiGen before a coach gets arrested or murdered. Or another athlete gets suspended or hospitalized.

Lots to do.

Chop, chop.

Your first post never stated that a confessed doper was the basis of your post.

On the contrary, you stated without reference to your source:

"Top athletes and virtually all (100%) of paid athletes supplement testosterone hormones as a method of 'topping off their levels'."

In my tiny little mind does not that interpret that if all professional athletes are artificially boosting their testosterone levels then Peter Winnen is making a false statement of fact that there is an effective drop? It is a fact that testosterone levels will be reduced but only at aggregate endurance times longer than a stage race. I shall repeat that part of Carrera's post:

"Can very intensive cycling training lower testosterone levels in the body or decrease sex drive? I did read an article by Peter Winnen the Dutch rider who stated, in his day, pro-riders who pushed themselves to the limit would experience a drop in testosterone levels."

Is not this another Flyer contradiction?

 

[Flyer]

I associate you with the AIS coverup and apology.

As long as you seek to discredit me or my posts I will forever remind the readers that the AIS has dodged a public and taxpayer relation bullet during the past 18 months.

Many of its members and alum have been silenced, suspended and lost endorsements

AIS equipment has been damaged

Dorm rooms used as "shooting gallery' for multiple rider injections.

Illegal drugs were discovered on campus.

Lying and denials have flown all over.

Parents condradict official reports and staff representations.

Obvious questions of suspervision and/or a policy of doping have never been answered. Denied yes, answered----NO!

Get busy VF, CH.

Flyer, I believe reference to the thread you hijacked to label the AIS as aiding and being compliant with doping reveals the following:

1. Despite numerous requests you failed to provide any "publicly available and corroborated truths."

2. No evidence of any kind whatsoever, solid or otherwise, was presented by yourself to support your opinions.

3. Consequently, there were no truthtellers to discredit unless you pigeonhole your "revelations" as being the truth. And you will further discredit yourself if you continue to express your extreme beliefs as being facts.

 

[VeloFlash]

Flyer wrote:

btw: You must be Carey Hall (steroid user) and

VeloFlash, aka: Carey Hall:

You and Peter Winnen have much in common. You both seek to float advice under the guise of being helpful, yet all the while be deceptive.

Flyer, it is generally considered in debating that if a debater resorts to ad hominem attacks, as exampled above, then they can no longer support their side of the debate.

You are now regurgitating "facts" from other threads that were your unsubstantiated opinions and were unsupported from any reference you finally partially provided in desperation.

It is futile to address these issues here. Go back to that thread and resume and not run off at a tangent and and attempt to hijack this thread. It was noted you suddenly disappeared from there when your arguments were addressed in referenced detail.

 

[frenchyge]

I guess you can't read!

A confessed doper was the root of the first post.

<sigh> No, his experienced loss of libido and an article he read relating to hormone levels was the root of his post. The subject of his post was whether the 2 were linked and if anyone else had had a similar experience. Feel free to read it again. He never asked about doping, mentioned doping, asked about how to correct his hormone levels, said he idolized that Peter fellow that wrote the article, or anything else. He just wondered whether his loss of libido could be related to his cycling. C'mon back to reality Flyer, I think you're a little too high.

Get it through your thick skull.

When you quote a doper, the appropriate and responsible first response is to disclose that fact.

No one quoted any dopers. No one mentioned doping except you. Disclose the fact that you're quoting a doper, what is that? ATTENTION: I'M ABOUT TO QUOTE A DOPER! What are you on?

Context and avoidance of 'idiotic themes' like 'work ethic' and cycling success need to be properly balanced against the doper making those claims.

What claims? Nobody made any claims. That Peter guy was the only doper, and even he didn't make any claims. A poster asked a rather sensitive question about his libido and people related their experiences. That's how a forum works.

Care to explain your naive bias against proper doping disclosure when leaping to presumptuous judgments?

I'm not biased about doping disclosure, whatever that is. Do you have a link which outlines proper doper quoting disclosure protocol that I can study up on in preparation for our next stimulating discourse?

It's been a peach. Cheers.

 

[Flyer]

VF:

The Commander has been alerted.

You will be dismayed to learn that yet another doping site has taken an interest in the AIS story.

Thanks to your single handed rants and feeble attempts at denying shocking stories coming out of the Australian Institute of Sport---and its highly vulnerable members and famous alum.

Perhaps we can learn more as whistleblowers come forward--and around you, left and right.

Matt DeCanio is a terrific example of how athletes who tell the truth---are mistreated by coaches, institutions, and corporate funded teams, and the industry as a whole.

But it is fun to fight back---when you you in the right. Let's see what comes up as TDF doping takes front stage next month. More interest in cycling, necessarily means more interest in doping scandals.

http://www.stolenunderground.com

Matt DeCanio was the U-23 Road Champion and admitted to using hGH (not Australian horse GH, EquiGen) and Amgen's EPO. While racing for an amateur team (not pro) he was given these drugs at-no-cost and advised to take them.

Sound like Mark French? Shane Perkins? Jobie Dajka? Carey Hall? Getting closer?

Matt was Chris Horner's teammate and a top Saturn rider too. He can climb and TT.

 

[Flyer]

You still cannot grasp the truth or any understanding of doping---aka: hormone top off.

Carrera referred to an article by Peter Winnen. And he paraphrased/quoted from it.

Winnen is doper. (an admitted one, thank goodness, else you would deny that as well) Get it?

The entire discussion re: testosterone is tainted by the fact that Winnen used injections of various hormones to 'boost' his recovery. He even medically justified it.

My first posts were aimed to make that material fact known. Peter Winnen does not begin his articles as 'I am a hormone doper'. He ought to otherwise people such as yourself will believe in false hope.

A discussion on natural testosterone production levels cannot be accurate when quoting a doper, using the pretence of a trainer.

Weekend warriors need honest and natural advice, not tauma medicine treatments.

Learn about the tricks used by the dopers and their promoters (coaches, trainers, and budgets) then you will be very careful what to believe or be skeptical of.

Maybe Michele Ferrari will publish a book after Lance retires? (maybe he will include all of the secrets?)

Without medical trauma care, natural methods would be adequate rest comensurate with intensity or load, hydration, electrolite replacement, balanced diet, avoid alcohol and drugs, minimize stress and have a varied workout, building up slowly over time.

eg: Not to exceed a 10% increase in load during consecutive weeks. Baby steps.

This requires great care and discipline--and is generally impossible for 99% of working people.

It can be done---but not without a personal cost.

The longer and slower the build phase, the higher the intensity you can absorb later on.

<sigh> No, his experienced loss of libido and an article he read relating to hormone levels was the root of his post. The subject of his post was whether the 2 were linked and if anyone else had had a similar experience. Feel free to read it again. He never asked about doping, mentioned doping, asked about how to correct his hormone levels, said he idolized that Peter fellow that wrote the article, or anything else. He just wondered whether his loss of libido could be related to his cycling. C'mon back to reality Flyer, I think you're a little too high.

No one quoted any dopers. No one mentioned doping except you. Disclose the fact that you're quoting a doper, what is that? ATTENTION: I'M ABOUT TO QUOTE A DOPER! What are you on?


What claims? Nobody made any claims. That Peter guy was the only doper, and even he didn't make any claims. A poster asked a rather sensitive question about his libido and people related their experiences. That's how a forum works.

I'm not biased about doping disclosure, whatever that is. Do you have a link which outlines proper doper quoting disclosure protocol that I can study up on in preparation for our next stimulating discourse?

It's been a peach. Cheers.

 

[VeloFlash]

VF:

The Commander has been alerted.

You will be dismayed to learn that yet another doping site has taken an interest in the AIS story.

Thanks to your single handed rants and feeble attempts at denying shocking stories coming out of the Australian Institute of Sport---and its highly vulnerable members and famous alum.

Perhaps we can learn more as whistleblowers come forward--and around you, left and right.

Had a thorough look and there appears to be no mention of AIS or any connected story. Sure you got your reference right?

Or is it that you have reported to the operator of this site a "scoop" that is not evident to anyone except yourself and even you have difficulty supporting? They must deal with cranks like yourself on a regular basis. I would not hold my breath on the expectation this site will take up your unsubstantiated story.

Matt DeCanio is a terrific example of how athletes who tell the truth---are mistreated by coaches, institutions, and corporate funded teams, and the industry as a whole.

But it is fun to fight back---when you you in the right. Let's see what comes up as TDF doping takes front stage next month. More interest in cycling, necessarily means more interest in doping scandals.

http://www.stolenunderground.com

Matt DeCanio was the U-23 Road Champion and admitted to using hGH (not Australian horse GH, EquiGen) and Amgen's EPO. While racing for an amateur team (not pro) he was given these drugs at-no-cost and advised to take them.

Sound like Mark French? Shane Perkins? Jobie Dajka? Carey Hall? Getting closer?

Matt was Chris Horner's teammate and a top Saturn rider too. He can climb and TT.

I fail to see the correlation, Flyer, as usual.

 

[Don Shipp]

What Peter Winnen stated was essentially that he believed doping wasn't cheating if the said doping was being used as medicine. But it would be cheating with regard to strength athletes.
By this he was stating that the kind of situation where you're hanging over the bars and pushing yourself beyond fatigue lowers testosterone levels. So, what Winnen saw happening in his day was doctors simply normalising testosterone levels in a way you would normalise a high temperature by taking aspirin.
Winnen claimed his own testosterone level would drop below the norm and a doctor would treat him to accordingly. I mean, steroids are even used by hayfever sufferers (I myself am an extreme sufferer).
But Winnen dropped out after the advent of EPO. He wanted nothing to do with EPO and saw himself getting dropped by riders who had adopted it. Winnen only believed drugs were valid for treating medical imbalances.
Now the other day I trained very very hard and was so tired afterwards, I can't quite describe it. I felt so tired it was like I was too tired to lie down. Due to my limited time schedule, I have to train really hard but for shorter periods, a bit like Roger Bannister used to do when he studied medicine.
I honestly have no idea at all whether hard cardio training can affect sex drive either for the better or worse.

I hope that you have had the patience to follow this thread and pick out the stuff that is useful to you.
I would like to know what your goals are and whether your shift work allows you to follow a consistant routine that includes training and recovery. It will be very hard to get race-fit if the patten of shifts makes such a routine impossible. Simply pushing your body to exhaustion every chance you get will do you no good at all whatever your goals. It can take a greater effort of will sometimes to cycle slowly than to cycle fast, but easy days are as much part of a training program as hard ones.
If the result of your training is that you require any kind of medication to help you recover or just to function normally then you are pushing yourself way too hard.
Testosterone levels can be lowered in the very short term by hard effort, and in the long term by chronic fatigue; but getting yourself seriously fit will raise them.
Much of this debate has been about the prevelance of doping in cycle competition, but you aren't going to do that, I hope.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I hope that can make a neutral comment.

This hijack to doping instead of helping a guy with a legitiimate question is a bunch of bull **** - IMO.

Is this the way all threads are going to be from now on?
Every thread becomes a sifting through the constant bantering about doping?

You cannot use the principle of "turn the channel if you don't like station" when the thread title has nothing to do with doping.

If the thread name was "I use gear and my libido is down, what do I do?" Then perhaps the speculations, the conversation, the accusations can proceed. Not that I make the rules or try to censor discussion, but please folks be considerate of the people starting a thread with a question that pertains to that particular individual's request and not use their thread as fulfilling a personal platform to preach a certain message. It's just a matter of being considerate.

 

[mises]

Carrera -

Also check out Maximum Performance for Cyclists by Dr Michael Ross. Has a very strong emphasis on higher intensity training but with an almost alarming amount of rest.

Another way to look at the libido issue is that the body has only limited resources and prioritizes survival first and sex second. You can't do everything and combining the stresses of training, job and family causes the same hormonal changes as the fight or flight response and makes your body think it's in a survival situation, causing priority #2 to shrink in comparison (so to speak).

 

[Carrera]

So, it's true? I quote from the article you posted me for reference:

"For example, endurance-trained athletes of both sexes have abnormally low levels of the major sex hormones: testosterone in men, and estrogen in women."

My impression is that this is a temporary inconvenience I've been experiencing that would normalise after a few days rest. I presently find myself working nights, studying and training intensively on the bike. I do have easy days and I do take the odd day off.

But as I testified earlier, after those really tough rides where I find myself really suffering and pushing myself to capacity, I seem to experience a drop in libido. It's like the mind is willing but the body doesn't follow. I get this feeling of depletion but, as I said, I'm sure this passes after a few days off.

I do ride hard when I fall on a hard day. I don't feel remotely overtrained. I sometimes find I can't sleep after a really hard bike session as well as the apparent drop in libido. Plus, my body has had the added stress of chronic hayfever and, often, when I ride, I'm exposed to the source of my allergy directly, riding through trees and grassy areas.

I appreciate all your imput into this question. I plan to get to the nitty gritty of the matter and find out through the doctor if my hormone levels check out as average, high or low. Because what I described seems to me to be physical not psychological or caused by worry, stress or work. And it can pass after a few days as I said.

Carrera, hope this will help.

Keep in mind that stress (rise is cortisol levels), stress related sleep disturbance, inconsistent nutrition levels interfering with recovery and most of all the aging process can all be factors, but this article goes a little deeper for endurance athletes.


http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/testosterone/testosterone.html

 

[Felt_Rider]

Glad you found the article. I was afraid it got lost in all the other stuff.

I will be turning 42 in two months and I am going throught the same thing.
Age, work stress, physical stress and training have affected me as well.

It is all physical for me. I have the want, but not the energy.
Unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it my wife is has a lot of want to and that bothers me that I am too tired and stressed.

You sound like me. I read a lot of your post and it sounds like you are always pushing hard which in my book is a good thing, but realistically all other facets begin to suffer.

I went on vacation a couple months ago and vowed not to do anything else, but walk casually on the beach. For that week things improved for the wife if you know what I mean.


Sounds like you have a lot going on, but if you can schedule a break that might be a good thing.

Keep the hope

 

[Carrera]

The said article by Peter Winnen was a fairly sensible one he wrote. Peter was pointing out that TDF riders are often denied common sense medications they may really need, such as cortisone or whatever. Did you see Tyler Hamilton the time he got stung by a bee and reacted to it with allergy symptoms? He was riding the tour with a swollen jaw and they couldn't allow him a corticosteroid shot. Ridiculous
At no time did Winnen advocate using dope unless a doctor recommended a steroid shot purely for health reasons (in cases where testosterone levels may have dropped). It was EPO that caused Winnen to drop out of cycling.
But however the case may be, I personally take the view you can train naturally without doping and learn to periodise more to avoid suspected symptoms of fatigue or possible hormone imbalances.
In my case, as someone pointed out, I may be burning the candle at both ends. I do 12 hour shifts nearly every night and then have to fit in my training rides. Seeing as I have less time than some others enjoy, I tend to blitz training on my hard days. I don't have the option of doing less intense rides for longer time spans. Inability to sleep and decreased libido are two physical symptoms I seem to have had my share of over the last 3 months or so. Plus I get cramp a lot when I ride harder. But I'm not over-trained and am very happy with my cycling performance lately. And the training feels like the sort of stuff John Landy would have recommended.
Anyone who wishes to bring doping into this topic, feel free. We're all level headed roadies who understand that a simple discussion of these issues, isn't an automatic licence to resort to dope. The closest I ever got to dope was a product they sold over the counter in Latvia but is illegal in the U.K. - Yohimbe Bark. They had it mainly in the sex shops as a performance booster (green pills). But I have no plans to dope.
How can you measure testosterone levels in the blood? Is this a long procedure or a simple blood test?

<sigh> No, his experienced loss of libido and an article he read relating to hormone levels was the root of his post. The subject of his post was whether the 2 were linked and if anyone else had had a similar experience. Feel free to read it again. He never asked about doping, mentioned doping, asked about how to correct his hormone levels, said he idolized that Peter fellow that wrote the article, or anything else. He just wondered whether his loss of libido could be related to his cycling. C'mon back to reality Flyer, I think you're a little too high.

No one quoted any dopers. No one mentioned doping except you. Disclose the fact that you're quoting a doper, what is that? ATTENTION: I'M ABOUT TO QUOTE A DOPER! What are you on?


What claims? Nobody made any claims. That Peter guy was the only doper, and even he didn't make any claims. A poster asked a rather sensitive question about his libido and people related their experiences. That's how a forum works.

I'm not biased about doping disclosure, whatever that is. Do you have a link which outlines proper doper quoting disclosure protocol that I can study up on in preparation for our next stimulating discourse?

It's been a peach. Cheers.

 

[Felt_Rider]

How can you measure testosterone levels in the blood? Is this a long procedure or a simple blood test?

simple blood test