CTL building strategies

[daveryanwyoming]

...Wrt to CTL and base, I can't believe how much some of you have (or how much 80 really is). I rode over 10,000 km last year (and half of that was mountain biking or commuting), ran another 1000 miles ...and have already ridden over 2000 km in 2008, and yet according to my best spreadhseet guesstimate, I'm barel over 80...

I'd bet your guesstimate is low. I rode far fewer miles last season, have been averaging 8 to 10 hours per week on the bike this winter and my CTL is ~98 TSS/day at the moment and still climbing. Part of that's because I don't spend much time below Tempo pace and do a lot of SST/L4 this time of year. When I get back to bike commuting in the spring I'll get some more mellow miles.

...I have a week+ off coming up, ...I was figuring that the CTL would drop back by about 5 points and I would take it from there. Would that make any difference to your concern regarding illness/burnout?...

I was wondering if that was part of your plan. Yeah, it changes things a bit but I still wouldn't target a 22 point increase in 5 days. I'd probably shoot for half that and expect to be really tired for the last couple of days of that deep dig. I'd also be really careful to stay fueled up, paying extra attention to critical half hour refueling after each ride and pay extra attention to staying hydrated with plenty of electrolytes for that kind of consecutive indoor training.

Let us know how it goes,
-Dave

 

[ctgt]

I'd bet your guesstimate is low. I rode far fewer miles last season, have been averaging 8 to 10 hours per week on the bike this winter and my CTL is ~98 TSS/day at the moment and still climbing. Part of that's because I don't spend much time below Tempo pace and do a lot of SST/L4 this time of year. When I get back to bike commuting in the spring I'll get some more mellow miles.

It'sa pretty mixed bag of km, that's for sure. Some commuting on a 30 lb. bike with panniers sometimes adding another 10-20, mountain biking, 2800 km on my good carbon road bike, couple of thousand on the Computrainer... I think I may have erred on the side of underestimation in determining the wattage and IF factor of these outdoor rides (I only have wattage readings from the Computrainer).

I was wondering if that was part of your plan. Yeah, it changes things a bit but I still wouldn't target a 22 point increase in 5 days. I'd probably shoot for half that and expect to be really tired for the last couple of days of that deep dig. I'd also be really careful to stay fueled up, paying extra attention to critical half hour refueling after each ride and pay extra attention to staying hydrated with plenty of electrolytes for that kind of consecutive indoor training.

Let us know how it goes,
-Dave

I was already thinking that I'd go buy some ELoad, gels and proper recovery nutrition for this venture, so yeah I was thinking along those lines too. Like I said, I'm likely to tinker with the "stages" a bit before I start too.

I will let you know how it goes. Of course, I still have to run the whole idea past my family, but they're usually pretty understanding of any riding I do before 9:00 A.M. (yes, I'll likely be running these races on GMT, or I wouldn't be talking about 3-4 hours/day)

 

[frenchyge]

A new spreadsheet (with seeded values, then 5 weeks of sample workouts to get to the same CTL, ATL):

CTL - 78
ATL - 54
Day, TSS, CTL, ATL, TSB
Day 1 - 226, 82, 77, +5
Day 2 - 187, 84, 91, -13
Day 3 - 197, 87, 105, -23
Day 4 - 302, 92, 132, -40
Day 5 - 206, 94, 142, -50

Total of 544 km in 19 hours including warm-ups and cool-downs.

Dude, that's brutal. Not impossible, but improbable, IMO. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that to themselves (especially indoors ), but definitely get yourself something nice for your birthday if you pull it off.

 

[ctgt]

Dude, that's brutal.
Not impossible, but improbable, IMO. .

OK, now I'm conflicted between taking good advice (from both you and Dave) to reduce the TSS, and stubbornly sticking with my original plan, and reporting back to you on how it goes

You tell us, when you get there..

I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that to themselves (especially indoors ), .

Now I think you actually do know the answer to this one. I'm pretty sure that it's safe to assume that none of my spring/summer competition will be doing the same thing, so I'm hoping for that boost to fitness that some would say you can only get from a stage race (can't you just hear Phil and Paul talking about how once you finish a grand tour, your body changes and you become a different rider?). And for whatever reason, I really don't mind riding indoors (I never use an IPod outside for instance), and I'm motivated by the numbers (km covered, wattage attained, TSS etc.)

but definitely get yourself something nice for your birthday if you pull it off.

Oooh. That's a good idea.


Thanks for the input. I will let you know either way. Now...any advice on how to approach the following?:

Honey (I never call her that, but that's the cliche), when the March Break arrives, I'd like to get up at 5:30 every morning for the first 4 or 5 days, and ride the trainer for about 80-100 km before we do anything else. I'm pretending it's a stage race.

 

[WattsAMatta]

Thanks for the input. I will let you know either way. Now...any advice on how to approach the following?:

Honey (I never call her that, but that's the cliche), when the March Break arrives, I'd like to get up at 5:30 every morning for the first 4 or 5 days, and ride the trainer for about 80-100 km before we do anything else. I'm pretending it's a stage race.

With job, wife, and kids, the bulk of my training happens between 4 am and 6 am, so I off the trainer and showered before anyone else in the house is awake, and nobody complains of neglect. So unless 'Honey' is an early riser, then you should be off the hook. Just be sure to get enough sleep between stages. Good Luck.

 

[frenchyge]

Thanks for the input. I will let you know either way. Now...any advice on how to approach the following?:

Honey (I never call her that, but that's the cliche), when the March Break arrives, I'd like to get up at 5:30 every morning for the first 4 or 5 days, and ride the trainer for about 80-100 km before we do anything else. I'm pretending it's a stage race.

If your situation is anything like mine then she already knows you're crazy and it won't be a big issue. Now, telling her that you'll need your chicken and rice prepared at 10am everyday, will need your massage at 11am, and are then planning to nap from noon to 3pm everyday to recover while she cleans and tunes up the bike, when it'll be time for more chicken and rice..... that may be a different story.

 

[ctgt]

If your situation is anything like mine then she already knows you're crazy and it won't be a big issue. Now, telling her that you'll need your chicken and rice prepared at 10am everyday, will need your massage at 11am, and are then planning to nap from noon to 3pm everyday to recover while she cleans and tunes up the bike, when it'll be time for more chicken and rice..... that may be a different story.

Maybe I'll start with that and settle on just the riding. That's good negotiating strategy, right?

Actually, the bigger challenge is that for every hour of exercise I get, she gets one too. She hates the trainer, though, so this time of year she won't likely "exercise" that option fully. She may get a full day of skate-skiing out of it though.

If this "works" for me, she'll probably get to do her own "stage race" the first 4 days of summer.

 

[ctgt]

With job, wife, and kids, the bulk of my training happens between 4 am and 6 am, so I off the trainer and showered before anyone else in the house is awake, and nobody complains of neglect. So unless 'Honey' is an early riser, then you should be off the hook. Just be sure to get enough sleep between stages. Good Luck.

I hear you. I wonder what % of my total riding would be considered "prime-time", (non-commuting, daylight hours). If I had to guess, I'd say under 40% of it (and most of that would be in the summer). But don't all these trainer rides before sunrise help you realy appreciate the summer day when it's your turn to go out and ride a century or spend 3 hours on the trails?

It doesn't matter whether or not my wife is the early riser. What matters is whether the kids get up early. (isn't it funny how the same kids who are so hard to wake-up at 6:30 A.M. on a weekday are up-and-at-'em earlier on the weekned).

 

[ctgt]

March Break Computrainer Stage Race:

Day 1: 82 km (4 laps of a 20.5 hilly course)-an actual race run every July

AW 217 2:39:00 TSS 187 new CTL 74.0 TSB -0.9

Didn't feel as good as I would have liked, given a positive TSB of 13.6 going in, but I'm fighting off a bit of a cold (which could ultimately cause me to "abandon" the race.

 

[frenchyge]

Didn't feel as good as I would have liked, given a positive TSB of 13.6 going in, but I'm fighting off a bit of a cold (which could ultimately cause me to "abandon" the race.

Bummer!

 

[ctgt]

March Break Computrainer Stage Race:

Day 1: 82 km (4 laps of a 20.5 hilly course)-an actual race run every July

AW 217 2:39:00 TSS 187 new CTL 74.0 TSB -0.9

Didn't feel as good as I would have liked, given a positive TSB of 13.6 going in, but I'm fighting off a bit of a cold (which could ultimately cause me to "abandon" the race.

Stage 2: 64 km (4 laps of a favourite local loop-Ct course generated by GPS)

AW 224 1:53:50 AHr 165 TSS 149 CTL 75.7 TSB -9.0

Felt better than yesterday.

 

[frenchyge]

Stage 2: 64 km (4 laps of a favourite local loop-Ct course generated by GPS)

AW 224 1:53:50 AHr 165 TSS 149 CTL 75.7 TSB -9.0

Felt better than yesterday.

Those distances and TSS numbers look a lot more reasonable than originally discussed. Did you decide to back away from the "go for broke" training approach?

Nice job! Keep it up.

 

[ctgt]

Those distances and TSS numbers look a lot more reasonable than originally discussed. Did you decide to back away from the "go for broke" training approach?

Nice job! Keep it up.

Actually, the two courses I chose for the first two days were on my original list (may have changed the order though).

Shorter warm-ups and cool downs, combined with slightly lower than anticipated wattages (wasn't feeling great, like I said), and lower duration (because I rode with the drafting on to make it more like a race, which I don't typically do, and therefore had a higher average speed than I originally guesstimated) all helped lower the TSS, but as you said, that's probably not a bad thing.

Tomorrow's challenges will come from the loss of an hour to DST, the need to spend at least an hour shovelling out from our most recent winter storm, and assorted errands and family commitments.


Total distance Day 1 (with WUCD) was 90 km, Day 2 was 75 km

 

[rmur17]

Actually, the two courses I chose for the first two days were on my original list (may have changed the order though).

Shorter warm-ups and cool downs, combined with slightly lower than anticipated wattages (wasn't feeling great, like I said), and lower duration (because I rode with the drafting on to make it more like a race, which I don't typically do, and therefore had a higher average speed than I originally guesstimated) all helped lower the TSS, but as you said, that's probably not a bad thing.

Tomorrow's challenges will come from the loss of an hour to DST, the need to spend at least an hour shovelling out from our most recent winter storm, and assorted errands and family commitments.


Total distance Day 1 (with WUCD) was 90 km, Day 2 was 75 km

hmmm ... you rode with drafting on and only averaged 33-34 kph? that doesn't sound right ....

 

[ctgt]

hmmm ... you rode with drafting on and only averaged 33-34 kph? that doesn't sound right ....

Well, today I averaged closer to 36, but you're right. I didn't do a very good job of drafting the first day especially (my average watts were just 2 lower than the pacer!). Also the first two days had some pretty significant climbing (Ottawa Bike Club Grand Prix in GAtineau Hills, and a local loop with 2 extended climbs, with short sections up to 10% on each 16 km lap).

Hopefully I can do a beter job in the peloton than I can behind the metal-man!

 

[postal_bag]

Well, today I averaged closer to 36, but you're right. I didn't do a very good job of drafting the first day especially (my average watts were just 2 lower than the pacer!). Also the first two days had some pretty significant climbing (Ottawa Bike Club Grand Prix in GAtineau Hills, and a local loop with 2 extended climbs, with short sections up to 10% on each 16 km lap).

Hopefully I can do a beter job in the peloton than I can behind the metal-man!

I love that race. Aren't the laps ~20 km? I've done it two years running, since I started racing. I make the trip from Toronto, and do the crit the following day.

Last year I had a TSS of 201 for 2:14, with an IF of 0.951

First lap, I averaged 382 w for ~6' on the main climb (396 w NP)

Got dropped from the lead group on the second time up, after ~6' at 400 w NP (395 w AP)

 

[ctgt]

I love that race. Aren't the laps ~20 km? I've done it two years running, since I started racing. I make the trip from Toronto, and do the crit the following day.

Last year I had a TSS of 201 for 2:14, with an IF of 0.951

First lap, I averaged 382 w for ~6' on the main climb (396 w NP)

Got dropped from the lead group on the second time up, after ~6' at 400 w NP (395 w AP)

20.53 km according to my CT file, and my 4 lap Ct ride was the closest I've come to doing this race. It's a long way to go with three young kids, but I'd love to try it. What category were you in that did the climbs at that power?

 

[postal_bag]

20.53 km according to my CT file, and my 4 lap Ct ride was the closest I've come to doing this race. It's a long way to go with three young kids, but I'd love to try it. What category were you in that did the climbs at that power?

That was S3/S4. Haven't managed to crack the top 20, there. For reference, I weighed about 75 kg at the time.

 

[rmur17]

That was S3/S4. Haven't managed to crack the top 20, there. For reference, I weighed about 75 kg at the time.

I didn't realize you guys were in Canada. I guess you're digging out from the weekend? Way east here in tropical eastern NL (I do wish!!), we had rain and temps rising from zero to +13C Saturday night, then -5C and sleet yesterday. Forecast is for -20C tonight and God knows what wind chill. very, very erratic weather here this winter ... no good for anyone really.

 

[ctgt]

I didn't realize you guys were in Canada. I guess you're digging out from the weekend? Way east here in tropical eastern NL (I do wish!!), we had rain and temps rising from zero to +13C Saturday night, then -5C and sleet yesterday. Forecast is for -20C tonight and God knows what wind chill. very, very erratic weather here this winter ... no good for anyone really.

Yeah,knowing that I'll have to put aside 1-2 hours for shovelling also adds a bit of challenge to getting all the riding in.

Stage 4 Update 4 laps 1996 Olympic Course 49.3 km
1:27:46 AW 227 AHR 159 new CTL 79.4 new TSB -22.2

[all CTLs and TSBs include WUCDs]

Definitely felt it in my legs on the steeper sections, but overall doing alright for Day 4 (had to pick a shorter race because of other commitments, errands, etc.) Not that the Watss/HR relationship is all that crucial, but it consistently widened throughout the 4 days, so at least that's some indicator that I wasn't seriously overdoing it.

I did a better job using the pacer today, ending up almost 20 watts below him.

I ended up coughing like crazy after getting off the trainer each day, but other than that I think my cold is not getting worse, and may be going away.

I don't know if there will be a Stage 5. My son is in a hockey tournament today and tomorrow (he has both a morning and afternoon game tomorrow), and so the time gap to train just might not be available.

After 4 days, my TSS for the "race" is 640, significantly less than the original plan. Families are great. They keep you from overtraining