CTL building strategies
- Thread starter daveryanwyoming
- Start date
Not yet still using the KKR speed to power chart I'm not sure I can justify the expense of a PT I use the KKR about 70% of the time due to weather in New England. Improving FTP is cool but I will still ride if I don't hit 300w and I have this computer on my shoulders and sensors in my legs that I could probably put to better use maybe I should do 3x20s with my eyes closed and see how consistent I can be.
rmur17 said:
Great Thread!
I was looking at all the charts and noticed something strange about mine. I am a MTBer that trains on road with PT. This fall I took cross season off and just did some low intensity MTBing and enjoying getting out in the woods. On Dec 15th (late start) I started to get back to training and went back to exclusive road (or computrainer). I have been doing a steady Monday-off, Tuesday - Strong SST / LT for 2 hours ish, Wednesday 1 hour L2, Thursday 2 x 20 SST for 75 min, Friday endurance / recovery based on feel, Saturday - long (3.5 hrs) with 2 x 20 and Sunday endurance with short sprints / micro burst (3hrs).
My issue is my chart. Look were TSB started with only one PT ride the 2 months before this "season" started and the strong negative numbers. My FTP is 275 but similar rides / time / effort (of the charts I am seeing) seem to produce less (your guys charts) negative TSB? Please note, I am technically challenged so might be something I am doing.
Final note, I went a strong first 5 weeks of "base SST" training before taking the past week light (which I wish I didn't do). I took it off as my TSB looked pretty negative but my legs felt OK (I could feel some accumulated fatigue but wasn't dying). I then tested FTP this weekend and suffered on computrainer in test, I am one of those people that off weeks just seem to jam up my legs / power but know I need some time off and reacted to the strong negative numbers.
Any thoughts on my chart?
I was looking at all the charts and noticed something strange about mine. I am a MTBer that trains on road with PT. This fall I took cross season off and just did some low intensity MTBing and enjoying getting out in the woods. On Dec 15th (late start) I started to get back to training and went back to exclusive road (or computrainer). I have been doing a steady Monday-off, Tuesday - Strong SST / LT for 2 hours ish, Wednesday 1 hour L2, Thursday 2 x 20 SST for 75 min, Friday endurance / recovery based on feel, Saturday - long (3.5 hrs) with 2 x 20 and Sunday endurance with short sprints / micro burst (3hrs).
My issue is my chart. Look were TSB started with only one PT ride the 2 months before this "season" started and the strong negative numbers. My FTP is 275 but similar rides / time / effort (of the charts I am seeing) seem to produce less (your guys charts) negative TSB? Please note, I am technically challenged so might be something I am doing.
Final note, I went a strong first 5 weeks of "base SST" training before taking the past week light (which I wish I didn't do). I took it off as my TSB looked pretty negative but my legs felt OK (I could feel some accumulated fatigue but wasn't dying). I then tested FTP this weekend and suffered on computrainer in test, I am one of those people that off weeks just seem to jam up my legs / power but know I need some time off and reacted to the strong negative numbers.
Any thoughts on my chart?
CTL ramp rate from mid-Dec to mid-Jan was around 10-12 pts per week or two to three times what most folks are hitting. Now I know you started from an apparent CTL of 15 ... but you had some riding that wasn't captured? Sorry if I misread/skimmed too quickly.TBiking said:
In any event, taking the #'s at face value: high CTL ramp rate implies ATL >> CTL which in turn implies TSB << 0.
You're ramping the training up rapidly and that's what is producing the low TSB's.
Did you seed the CTL and ATL start values or use data from last season? If you used seed values, how did you choose them?TBiking said:
It's not unusual to hit big negative TSB values when you first start back to regular training. My lowest TSB values for the last two years happened right at the beginning of winter training. But your very low values may reflect a very low starting seed to CTL.
If you seeded CTL low, much below the TSS of a typical workout that you have no trouble completing then your early workouts will be really high relative to your starting CTL. That will lead to very large negative TSB values that don't accurately reflect your fatigue. If you used carry on values from last year then it's possible that you didn't really lose as much base fitness as the models suggest(possibly doing other activities or the time constants just don't reflect how your body detrains over long periods of time). Either way, if you're doing weekly workouts that are manageable but your TSB seems much too low you can always go in and bump up the CTL and ATL starting seeds a bit until TSB more accurately reflects how you feel.
-Dave
If you seeded CTL low, much below the TSS of a typical workout that you have no trouble completing then your early workouts will be really high relative to your starting CTL. That will lead to very large negative TSB values that don't accurately reflect your fatigue. If you used carry on values from last year then it's possible that you didn't really lose as much base fitness as the models suggest(possibly doing other activities or the time constants just don't reflect how your body detrains over long periods of time). Either way, if you're doing weekly workouts that are manageable but your TSB seems much too low you can always go in and bump up the CTL and ATL starting seeds a bit until TSB more accurately reflects how you feel.
Dave - The hard part is the seed number. Since I was doing a lot of MTB and spending very little time on road bike it is always hard to guess. The key thought I think I have mis-understood is that fact that I could have held more fitness then thought. Another issue is I got a PT in May 07 in mid MTb season and recorded about 2 rides a week in non-build weeks and maybe 4 in build weeks so when I picked a starting point, I had assumed a large fitness loss based on what I saw on trainer as a large ( my assumption ) FTP decline from about 295 in Sept to I testing in dec at 270. Is is possible to loss 20% power but less fitness?
Also, the person responding before (sorry can't see name on this screen) correctly points out that there were rides that I was doing that were not recorded. My MTB rides typically are longer, 3hrs and well paced as I race Elite Age Cat's and I am competitive.
Should I just move starting point up to I feel it PE or Perceived fatigue matches TSB (guess work)? For example, I couldn't feel more rested at this moment but my TSB still looks negative....
Dave - The hard part is the seed number. Since I was doing a lot of MTB and spending very little time on road bike it is always hard to guess. The key thought I think I have mis-understood is that fact that I could have held more fitness then thought. Another issue is I got a PT in May 07 in mid MTb season and recorded about 2 rides a week in non-build weeks and maybe 4 in build weeks so when I picked a starting point, I had assumed a large fitness loss based on what I saw on trainer as a large ( my assumption ) FTP decline from about 295 in Sept to I testing in dec at 270. Is is possible to loss 20% power but less fitness?
Also, the person responding before (sorry can't see name on this screen) correctly points out that there were rides that I was doing that were not recorded. My MTB rides typically are longer, 3hrs and well paced as I race Elite Age Cat's and I am competitive.
Should I just move starting point up to I feel it PE or Perceived fatigue matches TSB (guess work)? For example, I couldn't feel more rested at this moment but my TSB still looks negative....
If you have a decent training log of hours during the fall, then considering that CTL approaches the average daily training load over the past 3-4 months and ATL that over the past three weeks, you could take:TBiking said:
- Average weekly training hours * 50/7 (regular endurance/mixed riding)
- Average weekly training hours * 70/7 (tempo and higher paced riding)
- Or something in between.
This is a great thread! Thanks Dave for starting it and for the insight you provide. At times I struggle with balancing the building of CTL, raising FTP, and training for the demands of specific events.
My CTL was 73 in mid Nov and will peak in late March at 125, with my 1st target event in early April. Here’s where it gets tricky. While I’d like to really focus on raising FTP and CTL through 2-3 days of 2 x 20s the events I focus on are long, timed centuries. My April event is 112 miles w 12,000 feet of climbing.
To prep for my target event I do group rides 2xs per week, with some serious TSS on those days, in the high 200s and soon, in the low to mid 300s. It would be a lot easier to do rides that are shorter, yet above current CTL, so I get the CTL increase I’m looking for, and continue to raise FTP. But if I did that I wouldn’t be ready to handle the demands of my target event.
For me a a typical week looks like…
M- Rest
T – Group ride (NM focus) w 5 x 8' TH and/or 2 x20' SST after (TSS = 275-350)
W – Rest or 1 x 35' SST if I’m not wasted (TSS = 60-90)
R – 2 x 20' TE or TH (TSS = 80-100)
F – Rest
Sa - Group ride (NM/TH focus w 2 x 10 TH) &/or 2 x20 SST after (TSS = 275-350)
Su - 1 x 35-60' SST if I’m not wasted (TSS = 60-90)
I know that some will say the group rides are a waste of time, but it’s really tough to simulate a 100 mile event riding alone and or/doing lots of 2 x 20s, and in my typical event you are riding in small groups, not riding alone.
At this point I’ve made the conscious decision to let my FTP plateau (its 81% of 5 min power), and focus on building CTL and my ability to endure serious Kcal burning rides.
While I’d love to add a serious block of vo2 work to “raise the roof” I’d be giving up CTL and limiting my ability to do 2 big TSS rides per week. Anybody else targeting these types of events? If so do you feel you are faced with this tradeoff and how are you handling it? Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have.
gene r
My CTL was 73 in mid Nov and will peak in late March at 125, with my 1st target event in early April. Here’s where it gets tricky. While I’d like to really focus on raising FTP and CTL through 2-3 days of 2 x 20s the events I focus on are long, timed centuries. My April event is 112 miles w 12,000 feet of climbing.
To prep for my target event I do group rides 2xs per week, with some serious TSS on those days, in the high 200s and soon, in the low to mid 300s. It would be a lot easier to do rides that are shorter, yet above current CTL, so I get the CTL increase I’m looking for, and continue to raise FTP. But if I did that I wouldn’t be ready to handle the demands of my target event.
For me a a typical week looks like…
M- Rest
T – Group ride (NM focus) w 5 x 8' TH and/or 2 x20' SST after (TSS = 275-350)
W – Rest or 1 x 35' SST if I’m not wasted (TSS = 60-90)
R – 2 x 20' TE or TH (TSS = 80-100)
F – Rest
Sa - Group ride (NM/TH focus w 2 x 10 TH) &/or 2 x20 SST after (TSS = 275-350)
Su - 1 x 35-60' SST if I’m not wasted (TSS = 60-90)
I know that some will say the group rides are a waste of time, but it’s really tough to simulate a 100 mile event riding alone and or/doing lots of 2 x 20s, and in my typical event you are riding in small groups, not riding alone.
At this point I’ve made the conscious decision to let my FTP plateau (its 81% of 5 min power), and focus on building CTL and my ability to endure serious Kcal burning rides.
While I’d love to add a serious block of vo2 work to “raise the roof” I’d be giving up CTL and limiting my ability to do 2 big TSS rides per week. Anybody else targeting these types of events? If so do you feel you are faced with this tradeoff and how are you handling it? Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have.
gene r
I guess the obvious question is whether you need to simulate 100 mile events to ride or race 100 mile events? I once thought so, I no longer do. Sure a few here and there to get used to being in the saddle, to dial in your feeding and hydration strategies and perhaps to increase glycogen storage makes sense.LT Intolerant said:
IMHO endurance comes first from bringing your sustainable power up high enough that you don't max out in your long events and secondly by paying attention to feeding yourself. I trained a total of two days last season over 70 miles and finished the season with a 206 mile road race that included 7500' of climbing and raced very well finishing in well under 10 hours and placing very well in a competitive group. I finished ahead of several team mates that spent their seasons focusing on long 100+ mile training rides.
YMMV,
-Dave
As usual, great insight Dave. What was your CTL leading up that event, and what did your training look like in advance of that event?daveryanwyoming said:
I often wonder how much one should simulate an event in training to feel prepared when it counts. Last year I did 3 of these events and my longest ride prior to all three events was 80 miles, with a CTL peak of roughly 115, and a program that included 2 group rides per week and two (2) FTP/vo2 building sessions per week.
Unfortunately I struggled in one event because of extreme heat, in another because of extreme cold, so I have these lingering doubts. My knee jerk reaction is to "over-train" (endo that is) so I feel bulletproof psychologically and physically.
If you were me what adjustments would you make to my weekly schedule? Kill the Tuesday group ride? Add vo2 to raise the roof and then do shorter, more quality SST/TH training during the week to raise FTP? Longer FTP sessions?
Thx much in advance for your help.
gene r
ps: You probably don't remember but you helped me tweak my training in advance of Copperopolis last year and the results were great for a slug like me (sadly V Promo gave my placing w MY ASSIGNED NUMBER to someone else)!
I got into the winning break of 9 riders in my race, finishing 8th as I chickened out on the final descent. So the pressure is on Dave!
I don't have my copy of WKO+ on this computer, but I'll check when I get home. IIRC it was somewhere near 90 after coming down from a season peak of 104.LT Intolerant said:
I hadn't put it together, but I do remember some talk of repeats up to Bishop Peak or some such SLO training ride. Nice job sticking with the break, but too bad about the descent and officiating. I've screamed down that hill no brakes in a full on thunder in lightning storm during a race there many years ago. It can be pretty spooky on that narrow road with barbed wire fences off in the ditches, but believe it or not it's a totally no brakes descent if you get a good line. Ahhh, memories of VP and Bob L., great to know they're still at it even if it doesn't always work out as well as it should. I keep thinking of racing that course again one of these days, it's a long trip but one I should make one of these days.You probably don't remember but you helped me tweak my training in advance of Copperopolis last year and the results were great for a slug like me (sadly V Promo gave my placing w MY ASSIGNED NUMBER to someone else)!...I got into the winning break of 9 riders in my race, finishing 8th as I chickened out on the final descent. So the pressure is on Dave!
Personally I'm not doing very many group training rides or at least with very small (like 1 or 2 other riders) groups who are on the same program. I'll show up for the nightly summer hammerfests once in a while to get in some L6 work and to see friends but don't base my training on group rides. Take a look at your power files from your recent group rides and ask yourself whether they accomplished your training goals and were the best use of your time. I've never trained alone as much as I do now, but then I've never experienced progress like this either.
-Dave
You are a better man then me Dave! That is scary when the pavement (if you call that pavement) is dry!daveryanwyoming said:
I have looked at the files and to some extent they do help because I spend a lot of time in L 2 & 3, and that is certainly where I spend a lot of time in these events.daveryanwyoming said:
But that said, it's hard to put in all that L 2 & 3 time and do quality work in L4 and L5 that raises FTP, ergo the tradeoff.
thx again!
A couple of questions to make this slightly more than a bump above spam post. (BASP - an acronym not likely to catch on)
1. How low do you let your TSB go, and for how long while you're building CTL, or is the ramp rate what you focus on?
2. If one were going to do one big week (in my case it'd likely be almost all on a trainer, but for others it may be the first week of good outdoor weather or a trip to better climate) as a pseudo-stage race training block, how much over your current weekly TSB do you think you could go?
1. How low do you let your TSB go, and for how long while you're building CTL, or is the ramp rate what you focus on?
2. If one were going to do one big week (in my case it'd likely be almost all on a trainer, but for others it may be the first week of good outdoor weather or a trip to better climate) as a pseudo-stage race training block, how much over your current weekly TSB do you think you could go?
CTL ramp rate is what I focus on. I try not to exceed a 5 point CTL rise per week but have ramped as fast as 8 points per week, but then only for one week and right before some forced rest(business travel). It also depends in part on where your CTL is at the moment. If you're down in the 20-40 TSS/day range then a short quick ramp might not be too big a deal, if you're already up in the 80-100 TSS/day range then it'll take a big dose of training to ramp you quicker than 8-10 points in a week.ctgt said:
I really think of TSB as a sort of quick reference to fatigue/freshness but don't take the absoulute TSB numbers too seriously. A glance at a TSB of +10 or -40 tells me something, but I'm more interested in what led up to those numbers.
I think it was frenchyge that posted a real nice quick tip for planning CTL ramp. IIRC it worked out to:
Weekly TSS for x ramp rate = (CTL + 6*x)*7
or to ramp at 5 CTL points per week from a CTL of 80 you'd need a weekly TSS of:
(80+6*5)*7 = 770
I use a forward looking spreadsheet that gives slightly different results, not that method, but they're pretty close and I'm sure someone will correct me if I misquoted the formula.
Anyway, I'd be concerned with ramp rate, not absolute TSB numbers during your deep training block.
Good luck,
-Dave
daveryanwyoming said:
My CTL is about 80, and I think I've been increasing it rather gradually since a low of 55-60 in December. My TSB is almost always negative, but isn't that inevitable when building CTL? In any case, as you stated in the original post, doing a workout below current CTL seems to have the dual advantage of allowing some rebound, but also keeps the CTL up there.
daveryanwyoming said:
Thanks Dave. I'm considering a 4-5 day block of about 60-100+ km /day on my Computrainer with a Total TSS of 800+. I'm planning to go in with a mini-taper and a TSB of about +20-25. Even with this, the "stage race" would bring my TSB (temporarily) to -80!!! Is this too much?
New Topic? What's the lowest TSB you've ever had?
I do plan to take equal recovery time afterwards with a couple of rest days and no rides above a TSS of 75 until my TSB is back between -10 and +10. As I said, the idea is to simulate a short stage race or team training camp.
I have done 2 centuries on the CT this winter and several rides of 100+ km since the end of last season, but have not yet strung them together like this.
I'm kind of having fun playing the role of race director, planning my March Break stage race. So far, I've got a few circuit races (3 laps of Coors Morgul Bismarck, a couple of local GPS-generated routes), my local club's century ride (may shorten this one), and I'm thinking of doing a TT effort on one of the days (with suitable WU and CD). I plan to do all excpet the TT with drafting on.
Of course, I can always abandon after a few stages and let metal-man win the GC.
Are you sure? Starting with a CTL of 80, ATL of 60 (TSB +20) and riding to a TSB of -80 would require 290 TSS/d for 5 days straight. By the end of the 5 days, CTL will be 103.6 and ATL at 183.4 (TSB at -79.9).ctgt said:
You tell us, when you get there.ctgt said:
THis is off topic, but I feel soooo much better. I thought that I was the only person to tough out Copperopolis to get dropped on the descent!! I completely lost my focus going down that thing tired and cold!!LT Intolerant said:You are a better man then me Dave! That is scary when the pavement (if you call that pavement) is dry!
I have looked at the files and to some extent they do help because I spend a lot of time in L 2 & 3, and that is certainly where I spend a lot of time in these events.
But that said, it's hard to put in all that L 2 & 3 time and do quality work in L4 and L5 that raises FTP, ergo the tradeoff.
thx again!
frenchyge said:Are you sure? Starting with a CTL of 80, ATL of 60 (TSB +20) and riding to a TSB of -80 would require 290 TSS/d for 5 days straight. By the end of the 5 days, CTL will be 103.6 and ATL at 183.4 (TSB at -79.9).
You tell us, when you get there.
I don't have the software, so I'm using a spreadsheet using the formulas found in another thread. CTL (=F16+($E17-F16)*(1-EXP(-1/42)) and A ATL =J16+($E17-G16)*(1-EXP(-1/7))
Actually, I was using a different spreadsheet to plan this "stage race" so I just used "seed" values for CTL and ATL. I just tried it again with a sample CTL spreadsheet with several weeks of lead-in and the numbers (for ATL and TSB) are quite different. I had thought that the ATL and TSB seemed extreme even for what I was planning.
My original spreadsheet (with seeded values, then a four day planned mini-taper):
CTL - 78 (down from 82 after 4-5 days mini-taper)
ATL - 53 (down from 90 after taper)
Day, TSS, CTL, ATL, TSB
Day 1 - 226, 81, 95, -14
Day 2 - 187, 84, 117, -33
Day 3 - 197, 87, 137, -50
Day 4 - 302, 92, 177, -85
Day 5 - 206, 94, 184, -90
A new spreadsheet (with seeded values, then 5 weeks of sample workouts to get to the same CTL, ATL):
CTL - 78
ATL - 54
Day, TSS, CTL, ATL, TSB
Day 1 - 226, 82, 77, +5
Day 2 - 187, 84, 91, -13
Day 3 - 197, 87, 105, -23
Day 4 - 302, 92, 132, -40
Day 5 - 206, 94, 142, -50
Total of 544 km in 19 hours including warm-ups and cool-downs.
So, even my most ambitious version of my "stage race" has 1118 TSS over the 5 days (not 5*290 = 1450), but I think I'll probably change the 4th day to something shorter (although it is my birthday, so I would definitely get "family permission" to do the century if that's what I wanted).
So using either approach to your spreadsheet you're planning to ramp CTL by 16 points in 5 days or a ramp rate of more than 22 CTL points per week. Sounds very ambitious to me. Remember a lot of folks have run into illness and burnout when they exceed 8 to 10 CTL points per week, you're planning a ramp more than twice that steep.ctgt said:
Looks like you're simulating the problem of trying to go into a long hard stage race without enough training base. Personally it doesn't seem smart or necessary. How about less taper, and less load for a good solid five day effort, but one that you're more likely to finish and less likely to bury yourself with?
daveryanwyoming said:
Thanks, Dave. If I wasn't willing to take the advice, I wouldn't have posed the question, so... I'll put on my race-director's hat and tinker with the stages. What would you suggest for a 5 day TSS total?
Wrt to CTL and base, I can't believe how much some of you have (or how much 80 really is). I rode over 10,000 km last year (and half of that was mountain biking or commuting), ran another 1000 miles (yeah-I don't know why I run miles and ride km, but I do), and have already ridden over 2000 km in 2008, and yet according to my best spreadhseet guesstimate, I'm barely over 80.
Another question/comment...I wasn't really intending to "ramp-up" from 78 to 94 and maintain that CTL. I have a week+ off coming up, and I wanted to take advantage of the increased time to train, and try the stage race/training camp idea. I was planning to take it easy the rest of the week (probably have to - visit family etc.), and I was figuring that the CTL would drop back by about 5 points and I would take it from there. Would that make any difference to your concern regarding illness/burnout?
Thanks Dave and frenchyge for your comments.
