Can you make it to the market on a bike?

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> WHATEVER GETS PEOPLE OUT IS GOOD, then we polish it up along the way.

But it doesn't actually do that much in getting people out. Milton
Keyenes and Stevenage were designed from the ground up with segregated
cycle lanes. Are they a cycling Mecca compared to other towns in that
part of England? Doesn't appear to be the case, and those cyclists who
do use them aren't any better off than those on the roads in terms of
safety, but they do take longer to get where they're going.

And even if they do go out, and find it's not all magic like they
thought it would be, they'll go back in again.

So, you may well find that, like NL and Germany, you've spent one hell
of a lot of money on new infrastructure but not actually generated much
(if any) extra cycling. Real life lessons that run counter to your pet
theories hurt, I know (been there myself often enough), but ultimately
it's better if you actually learn from them rather than assume your pet
theory will magically become right if you just repeat it often/loud enough.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> Letting bikes loose out on the roads can be dangerous. Better channel
> them through bike lanes.

Bike lanes don't have a better safety track record than the roads.

Go to http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/infrastructure.html and actually do
some reading around the subject.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> OK, your strategy doesn't motivate anyone because people are no
> fools. They know cars fly by too close for comfort.

Not if you're properly positioned, as per the advice in UK National
Standard Training or the "Cyclecraft" manual. How do I know? Because
I'm out there on busy thoroughfares and they don't fly by me too close
for comfort.
Which I can (and do) point out to people who say I'm a marvel because
"it's so dangerous out there!". I also point out it's not nearly as
dangerous as they think. In fact, compared to pedestrians on their
"safe" segregated sidewalks, cyclists get slightly fewer serious
injuries per unit distance. Counter intuitive, but true.

> That's why there's
> no significant number of people riding bikes on busy thoroughfares. It
> just doesn't make sense to push people onto roads and then having to
> say, "Sorry, **** happens."

Though it's perfectly all right to shove them onto a lane or track which
doesn't have any better safety record, and if they get mown down at a
junction (which is where most accidents happen, not getting hit from
behind on normal road) saying "Sorry, **** happens"?

When are you going to account for reality being the bottom line and not
your personal hopes for what it /should/ be?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Ace]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:14:13 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>donquijote1954 wrote:
>
>> Letting bikes loose out on the roads can be dangerous. Better channel
>> them through bike lanes.
>
>Bike lanes don't have a better safety track record than the roads.
>
>Go to http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/infrastructure.html and actually do
>some reading around the subject.

Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.


--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom

 

[Peter Clinch]

Ace wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:14:13 +0100, Peter Clinch
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> donquijote1954 wrote:
>>
>>> Letting bikes loose out on the roads can be dangerous. Better channel
>>> them through bike lanes.
>> Bike lanes don't have a better safety track record than the roads.
>>
>> Go to http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/infrastructure.html and actually do
>> some reading around the subject.
>
> Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
> clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
> take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.

Fair point...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Tony Raven]

Ace wrote:
>
> Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
> clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
> take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.
>

Its also fairly obvious he won't be around for long before he gets
killed by one of the many thousands of cyclicidal SUV drivers in his
neighbourhood ;-)

Tony

 

[Ace]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:08:26 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Ace wrote:
>>
>> Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
>> clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
>> take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.
>>
>
>Its also fairly obvious he won't be around for long before he gets
>killed by one of the many thousands of cyclicidal SUV drivers in his
>neighbourhood ;-)

That'd be a shame.

--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom

 

[Mike Clark]

In message <[email protected]>
donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Aug 1, 1:13 pm, Mike Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
> > In contrast to the 'idea' of ever more separate lanes being good for
> > improved safety there is the contradictory data that shows that in
> > places where you remove all the lane markings, signs and junction
> > priorities you often get a measurable increase in safety.
>
> Should we erase the car lanes too? I think we could have bike lanes
> and still enforce those breaking the law, so they can pay for more
> bike lanes. Are you parked in the bike lane? You got a fine for 100
> bucks...
>

Yes the data is based on situations where all the lane markings and
junction priorities, traffic lights etc are removed. Basically people
stop driving as if they have a known priority and instead start looking
out for and avoiding other road users.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

 

[Tony Raven]

Ace wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:08:26 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Ace wrote:
>>> Alternatively, you could just stop feeding the troll. It's fairly
>>> clear that he's not listening, and I doubt that anyone will seriously
>>> take any notice of him, as he's such an obvious monomaniac.
>>>
>> Its also fairly obvious he won't be around for long before he gets
>> killed by one of the many thousands of cyclicidal SUV drivers in his
>> neighbourhood ;-)
>
> That'd be a shame.
>

Or an exaggeration.

Tony

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 6:11 pm, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill Z. wrote:
> > Adding a bike lane does not change the rules of the road.
>
> But it makes most cagers think that the rules have changed.
> It is like have seating for coloured people on buses, you
> think it helps, but it just causes antagonism between groups.
>
> > In my state, cyclists riding at less then the normal speed of traffic
> > have to use a bike lane (when installed in accordance with state
> > standards), but not cylcist riding as fast or faster than other
> > traffic, and there are a number of exceptions to the requirement to
> > use a bike lane: to pass something, avoid a hazard, prepare for a left
> > turn,
>
> So if I see bike lanes in your state as inherently
> dangerous, I can ignore them completely?
> If "normal[1]" traffic is travelling slower than me does
> it has to get out of my way, or do these rules only work
> one way (e.g. ****ers have to give up their bus seats for
> the superior whites).
>
> From you arguments it sounds like you just want to keep
> normal traffic (cyclists) out of your way.
>
> [1] On my bike I am normal traffic.

While your civil right activism is impressive, you are just choosing
the wrong parallel. A cyclist among cars is like you swimming in a
pool full of sharks. Feeding the sharks, so to speak...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36133139@N00/389281903/

I'm watching "Shark Week" on Discovery, and I can draw some
conclusions:

1- Never swim with the sharks;

2- Sharks are stupid;

3- Sharks are unpredictable...

2 and 3 are the issues that concern me the most: You never know when
the shark or which shark is going to eat you. So go back to #1 and you
are likely to have a long life.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 8:04 pm, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Does Bill Zaumem actually ride a bike in the real world and pay
> attention to what happens, or does he just argue on Usenet?

So what's solution to bring the ridership to, say, 30%? If we banned
cars from city centers we could bring it up 100% I guess.

Holland is a really stupid and violent place. They have the cheek to
say, "Beware of bikes!"

Not so in America. To begin with we hardly any cyclists out there
doing real things with bikes. And then we got the SUVs that are real
dangerous, but we simply don't brag about it. Yeap, it's a violent
place out there...

Beware of bikes!
Besides freeways, bus lanes and sideways, The Netherlands have
numerous bicycle paths, approximately 20000 kilometres in total
length! Because the country is so tiny and flat, the bicycle provides
an easy way to transport yourself, your friend, your dog and your
groceries, and is also handy when you're moving to a different
apartment or house.

http://www.siw.nl/english/thenetherlands.php

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 9:58 pm, [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> William <[email protected]> writes:
> > On Aug 1, 7:44 pm, [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> > > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > > > Bill Zaumen wrote:
>
> > > > > Nonesense. You simply have a road with multiple lanes and slower
> > > > > traffic is required to use the rightmost lane. If it is a bike lane,
> > > > > then the rightmost lane is one that motor vehicles cannot use unless
> > > > > preparing for a turn across that lane.
>
> > > > Yeah, right. Put in a painted "bike lane" on the street (or even
> > > > worse, sidewalk), and the brain-dead cagers think that cyclists SHOULD
> > > > NOT be anywhere else.
>
> > > Which is why most drivers don't yell at me for using a left turn lane,
> > > whether or not there is a bike lane. And some actually smile if I
> > > move out of a bike lane to stop at a red light so that right-turning
> > > cars can get by.
>
> > They Smile? What a depressing life one must have if there highlight of
> > the day was a bike made it eaiser for you to make a right turn....
>
> When you have a really nasty bug to track down as part of your 6-figure
> job, any act of kindness is really appreciated. People around here
> are very busy, so anything that helps them get to where they are going
> faster gets a positive reaction.
>
> Also, it is a very liberal community by U.S. standards (although not
> quite as liberal as San Francisco). Here's a picture of our local
> movie theater <http://www.stanfordtheatre.org/stf/>. Click on "This
> Week" to see what we get. You'll be truly amazed.

It must really be liberal because it got such a great theater, not a
conservative place with a mega church and all. They really hate the
arts and bike lanes. I see them driving SUVs...

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 9:40 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > And what do you
> > expect to have when you go around electing members of a political
> > party (whose name starts with "R") whose official position is that
> > government can't work?
>
> We have been making progress on that front in recent years.
>
> [1] This, in many cases DOES not including exceeding the speed limit,
> which is about the only thing that ever seems to be enforced.
> [2] To a point. Obviously, in a country with a ridiculous level of
> overpopulation such as China, cycling in urban areas is not enjoyable
> unless one likes being part of a slow moving congested mass of people on
> bicycles.

OK, I finally figured you out. We may disagree on the bike lane as
part of the solution, but we totally agree on the absolute need to
retire a bunch of bad drivers, and enforce some rules of the road.

Lane discipline should be a high priority so you don't drivers
overtaking on the right lane at supersonic speeds, right next to the
bicycles. This is addressed too in our Political Platform...

"Our roads, where the Law of the Jungle rules, should be made safer,
say by enforcing passing on the left only."

See http://webspawner.com/users/elections2008

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 9:55 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "donquijote1954" who? wrote:
> > ...
> > Thank you for explaining so well what I have in mind. Actually that's
> > the idea behind...
>
> >http://www.cafepress.com/burncalories
>
> I think a better solution would be two jerseys [1]. In the morning [2],
> the jersey worn would say in large letters on the back "RIDING TO WORK".
> The afternoon jersey would say "RIDING HOME FROM WORK".
>
> [1] Or a reversible sign for recumbents.
> [2] Reverse for night shift workers.

Yeah, but then you need more like, "RIDING TO THE MARKET," "RIDING TO
HAVE A DATE," etc.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 10:01 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "donquijote1954" who? wrote:
> > ...
> > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVE[L]S TO THE DUTCH
> > OR DANISH LEVELS?...
>
> The Danes have almost a 100% tax on new automobiles, high gas taxes, and
> (in the cities) very limited and expensive parking. They also have a
> beautiful cool spring to fall climate, and winters that can be mostly
> handled with proper raingear.
>
> Ride to work even a short distance at a slow pace in much of the U.S.
> during summer and you will be soaked in sweat.

You know some bikes do have an electric motor? We can use some of
those. Where I live is real hot, but doable in the early morning and
late afternoon.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 10:22 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] aka Joshua Putnam wrote:
>
> > ...
> > Even the limited-access freeway near me has its shoulder open to
> > bicycles -- bikes are allowed on many miles of Interstates, boring and
> > noisy, but safe and direct....
>
> Do the drivers look for cyclists crossing their path when merging and
> exiting?

They only talking on the phone. But then again, we need to retire them.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 2, 12:02 am, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Pat who? wrote:
> > ...If you don't like it, go talk to the lawmakers.
>
> That is not a practical suggestion for those of us who can not afford to
> attend $1000/plate fund-raising dinners.
>

That's only the price to get in. To get listened to you need at least
100 times that amount.

 

[Amy Blankenship]

"William" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 1, 2:28 pm, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Aug 1, 11:12 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
>> > > > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at
>> > > > > > you, but
>> > > > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the
>> > > > > > paintwork. If you
>> > > > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more
>> > > > > > maligned
>> > > > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice
>> > > > > > to use
>> > > > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>>
>> > > > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them
>> > > > > > not
>> > > > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>>
>> > > > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW
>> > > > > DO WE
>> > > > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE
>> > > > > DUTCH
>> > > > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>>
>> > > > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong
>> > > > direction.
>> > > > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
>> > > > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and
>> > > > address
>> > > > that.
>>
>> > > > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to
>> > > > bike
>> > > > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
>> > > > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
>> > > > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>>
>> > > > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for
>> > > > football
>> > > > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
>> > > > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I
>> > > > just
>> > > > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately,
>> > > > there's
>> > > > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually
>> > > > because
>> > > > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
>> > > > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
>> > > > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So
>> > > > at
>> > > > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at
>> > > > 9
>> > > > hour bike ride.
>>
>> > > I don't blame you, biking works best
>> > > when everything is
>> > > more central and dense like a metro area.
>>
>> > > > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
>> > > > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way
>> > > > issue.
>> > > > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to
>> > > > people,
>> > > > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
>> > > > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
>> > > > trip.
>>
>> > > > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place
>> > > > to
>> > > > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
>> > > > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage
>> > > > shopping
>> > > > by bike.
>>
>> > > Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
>> > > from nowhere land.
>>
>> > I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
>> > nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
>> > background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
>> > nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
>> > What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
>> > worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
>> > Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
>> > version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
>> > somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
>> > underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
>> > Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
>> > me, because I don't wear a watch.
>>
>> > You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
>> > virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
>> > You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
>> > hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
>> > I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
>> > that's what makes it nice.
>>
>> > On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
>> > Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
>> > excitement around here.
>>
>> > Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
>> > youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
>> > of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
>> > any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
>> > stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>>
>> > So what about this "quality" thing?
>>
>> Pat, Walmart is McDonalds department stores. In every way. If you wanna
>> call that quality go right ahead. Just keep that bull **** out of the
>> city.
>
> To be more specific, ever notice how a lot of things, not
> ALL things but a lot, are a heck of a lot crappier at walmart as
> apposed to the other extreme like William-sanoma or crate and barrel?
> I'm not saying that every place should be as expensive and *high tech*
> for a lack of a better word as those places are. But ever notice how
> theres a lot of poor people at Walmart? I guess you would'nt since
> thats all you have in nowhere land but here in the cities when people
> have more options then the lowest and crappiest, we tend to shoot for
> the happy medium between excessive and contemptible.

I'm not sure that it's the best argument against Wal-Mart that it gives the
poor a place that they can afford. BTW, hope you're ok.

 

[Pat]

On Aug 2, 12:02 am, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Pat who? wrote:
> > ...If you don't like it, go talk to the lawmakers.
>
> That is not a practical suggestion for those of us who can not afford to
> attend $1000/plate fund-raising dinners.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

Weird. Our State Assemblyman and Senator are both VERY accessible.
I've met with them often on things. You call, make an appointment and
you go see them. If you're in Albany on a trip or whatever, it's
easier to get in because they have so few constituents see them there.

It takes a bit longer to get into see our Congressman, but he does set
up "Town Hall" meetings once-a-year that are well publicized. He
stops makes 6 or 7 stops in the county in the day he is there, so you
never have to go very far to see him. But few people bother to show
up. But he makes the effort. I don't terribly like the guy, but he is
accessible and he tries to get out into the district (which is quite
large).

Our Senators, though, are a bit more distant. Schumer travels the
state pretty regularly. I think you it's pretty easy to get to see
Hillary, too, as long as you travel to Iowa to do it -- but still
under the $1000 ticket threshold.

I did pay to go to an event to see Spitzer, but it was only $60 for
the conference. He's shorter than he looks.

 

[Pat]

On Aug 1, 5:49 pm, William <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 2:28 pm, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 11:12 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> > > > > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> > > > > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> > > > > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> > > > > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> > > > > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> > > > > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> > > > > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> > > > > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> > > > > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> > > > > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
> > > > > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
> > > > > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
> > > > > that.
>
> > > > > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
> > > > > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
> > > > > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
> > > > > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>
> > > > > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
> > > > > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
> > > > > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
> > > > > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
> > > > > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
> > > > > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
> > > > > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
> > > > > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
> > > > > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
> > > > > hour bike ride.
>
> > > > I don't blame you, biking works best
> > > > when everything is
> > > > more central and dense like a metro area.
>
> > > > > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
> > > > > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
> > > > > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
> > > > > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
> > > > > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
> > > > > trip.
>
> > > > > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> > > > > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> > > > > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> > > > > by bike.
>
> > > > Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
> > > > from nowhere land.
>
> > > I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
> > > nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
> > > background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
> > > nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
> > > What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
> > > worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
> > > Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
> > > version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
> > > somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
> > > underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
> > > Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
> > > me, because I don't wear a watch.
>
> > > You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
> > > virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
> > > You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
> > > hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
> > > I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
> > > that's what makes it nice.
>
> > > On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
> > > Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
> > > excitement around here.
>
> > > Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
> > > youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
> > > of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
> > > any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
> > > stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>
> > > So what about this "quality" thing?
>
> > Pat, Walmart is McDonalds department stores. In every way. If you wanna
> > call that quality go right ahead. Just keep that bull **** out of the
> > city.
>
> To be more specific, ever notice how a lot of things, not
> ALL things but a lot, are a heck of a lot crappier at walmart as
> apposed to the other extreme like William-sanoma or crate and barrel?
> I'm not saying that every place should be as expensive and *high tech*
> for a lack of a better word as those places are. But ever notice how
> theres a lot of poor people at Walmart? I guess you would'nt since
> thats all you have in nowhere land but here in the cities when people
> have more options then the lowest and crappiest, we tend to shoot for
> the happy medium between excessive and contemptible.
>
> I prove via internet: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2403033
>
> Wal*Mart:Lowest Common Denominator
> Look at this cool set of pots and pans and the mounted rack. Only
> 34.32!!!
> But in reality,look at cheap and thin the metal on the cooking
> utensils and the pots is. Don't expect those to get through a
> thanksgiving dinner....
>
> Kohls: A Happy Mediumhttp://www.kohls.com/products/product_page_vanilla0.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3E...
> A good medium, not to bad it gets the job done. 170$ is pretty
> reasonable, closer on the low end of things but again it will get the
> job done.
>
> William-Sonoma: When brains collide with class and stlye Bet you don't
> have one of these at "The Rez" do you Pat?http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/sku9639873/index.cfm?pkey=cck...
> 600 dollars and just for the pots. Yea I would say this would out live
> the competition in ever way by a large margin. Still, nothing to there
> 1,400$$$ one. ttp://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/sku8991465/index.cfm?pkey=cckwseti
> Hey, you get what ya pay for!
>
> Now, cheap prices may seem all good, but why not just pay a little
> extra for the one that will last?
> (Ahem* because your either poor or have no options or you just have no
> sense of quality)
>
> Now Pat, you may be saying to yourself that those other sets of pots
> are expensive only for more profit, but if that was true, do you
> REALLY think William-Sonoma would still be around?

Umm, eh eh, shhh, but go look again. For Walmart, you compared the
price of the pot RACK to the cost of the pots in the other stores.

Second, I've hear of Kohls but have no idea what they sell. Sorry.
I've never hear of William-whatever and there probably isn't one with
a few hundred miles of here. Sounds like one of those too-much-money
and too-little-brains stores for people who have a cook do their
cooking for them.

$1200 for pots is ridiculous. Anyway, you wouldn't believe the stuff
I use. On the rare occasion that I need to buy cookware, I swing by a
restaurant supply store in Buffalo and get what I need. Strictly
utilization, but great quality. You can beat on the stuff with no
damage. My teflon frying pan, which I use all the time, is probably
over 5 years old and the teflon is still perfect. Oh, and the stuff
is pretty cheap.

My tea pot is from K-Mart and is probably going on 10 years old. It's
Revereware. Great stuff.

What you have to understand about rural areas is the simplicity of the
place. If you wanted $1200 pots, you wouldn't live here. You can get
almost anything you want at Walmart. You just want different things.

Here's a better comparision for you:
http://www.kohls.com/products/produ...LDER<>folder_id=436514383&bmUID=1186080661287
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5673563
But I suppose the ones from Walmart are somehow inherently inferior..