Can you make it to the market on a bike?

[Clive George]

"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> donquijote1954 wrote:
>
>> You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
>> BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
>> OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> Level all the hills and change history so we'd never lost our bike
> culture.

There are other ways, but most are not what would be acceptable in a
civilised culture - eg the one which was responsible for a large increase in
riding in London unfortunately involved killing 52 people...

cheers,
clive

 

[Peter Clinch]

Clive George wrote:
> "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> donquijote1954 wrote:
>>
>>> You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
>>> BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
>>> OR DANISH LEVELS?
>>
>> Level all the hills and change history so we'd never lost our bike
>> culture.
>
> There are other ways, but most are not what would be acceptable in a
> civilised culture - eg the one which was responsible for a large
> increase in riding in London unfortunately involved killing 52 people...

Even that's not enough, and nor are "punitive measures in a war against
the motorist" like the Congestion Charge. Yes, cycling is up in London
by an amazing amount, but to "Dutch or Danish levels" as asked for?
Nowhere near it, AFAICT.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Pat]

On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> OR DANISH LEVELS?

You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
that.

Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
& no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.

For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
hour bike ride.

So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
trip.

So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
by bike.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 9:11 am, DougC <[email protected]> wrote:
> donquijote1954 wrote:
> > ... I can ride leisurely my cruiser with huge baskets to the
> > supermaket through some quiet, safe streets, about 0.7 mile.
>
> > Regrettably, my happiness ends at this point as going any further
> > places me right on major roads, where the major predators rule....
> > ... Great places are within biking
> > distance, up to 15 miles, along parks, beaches and scenic places, but
> > NO BIKE LANES are provided, and I just play it safe.....
>
> The problem with this plan is that typically "the squeaky wheel gets the
> grease". The only way that gov't would know that a bike lane was even
> necessary was if there were lots of complaints of motorists being held
> up by bicyclists.
>
> Where I live the only roads prohibited for bicycles are interstate
> highways; every other road is legal and free. Get a good rear-view
> mirror, get out there, and get in the way. Every motorist that gets
> ****** off at you for slowing them down is one more "advocate" for bike
> lanes.
> ~

Thank you for explaining so well what I have in mind. Actually that's
the idea behind...

http://www.cafepress.com/burncalories

In other words, we need an identifying, conspicuous and explanatory T-
shirt that makes us part of an ORGANIZED CAMPAIGN. "In union there's
strength," you know. If I currently "play it safe" is because there's
nobody else out there challenging the status quo in significant
numbers or in an organized way. And Critical Mass doesn't cut it for
me, as they try to block the road, not just TAKE THE LANE and let
drivers pass you on the next lanes. You want to make friends, not
enemies. And Critical Mass doesn't do it regularly either, like we
need in real life situations such as getting to the market, work, etc.
Once we get it going though I'll be the first one in the line of duty.
As for the profits, we can set up ALL of it to create more bike lanes
--adjacent or separated from the road. So everybody should be happy,
bikers and drivers, pro bike lanes and anti bike lanes. Well, these
last ones are hard to please.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 9:54 am, "George Conklin" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "DougC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:qE%[email protected]...
>
> > donquijote1954 wrote:
> > > ... I can ride leisurely my cruiser with huge baskets to the
> > > supermaket through some quiet, safe streets, about 0.7 mile.
>
> > > Regrettably, my happiness ends at this point as going any further
> > > places me right on major roads, where the major predators rule....
> > > ... Great places are within biking
> > > distance, up to 15 miles, along parks, beaches and scenic places, but
> > > NO BIKE LANES are provided, and I just play it safe.....
>
> > The problem with this plan is that typically "the squeaky wheel gets the
> > grease". The only way that gov't would know that a bike lane was even
> > necessary was if there were lots of complaints of motorists being held
> > up by bicyclists.
>
> Based on the bicycle militants posting here, bicycles do not "hold up"
> cars.

More often than not stupid drivers hold up other smart drivers. As for
the bikes, MORE BIKES MEANS FEWER CARS!

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> In other words, we need an identifying, conspicuous and explanatory T-
> shirt that makes us part of an ORGANIZED CAMPAIGN. "In union there's
> strength," you know.

Within the union, yes, but you're trying to address people outside it.
One way of putting off "normal people", IME, is being a strident
activist. Look at recycling: green evangelists go on about it and not
much happens, but if the Normal People next door are doing it then other
Normal People will join in.

> You want to make friends, not enemies.

Absolutely. See above.

> As for the profits, we can set up ALL of it to create more bike lanes
> --adjacent or separated from the road.

Even though we know they don't help. You still haven't taken that on
board, but it's still true. Bike lanes are not the answer to anyone
except the road paint industry.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> No it's not, unless you're into pointless exaggeration.
>
> One thing you can do to encourage more people onto bikes is stop
> routinely exaggerating the dangers. Why are people going to want to go
> cycling if it's a "war zone"?
>
> What you need to do is tell it like it /actually is/: a relatively safe
> and remarkably efficient, cheap and healthy way to get about. As
> opposed to some ridiculous story where folks will run over them for the
> sake of it, where they need to be civilly disobedient to get their
> rights, and where there's a war going on. That really sounds like a
> good reason to start using a bike! (not)
>

Would you tell the people going into Iraq that it's a piece of cake?
No, I guess... You tell them IT'S A WAR ZONE, and then you give them
proper armor and ammunition to survive, right? Well, the armor and
ammunition here is your strategy, ie. A NONVIOLENT CAMPAIGN TO TAKE
THE LANE. I doubt the terrorists are ready for that.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> One thing you can do to encourage more people onto bikes is stop
> routinely exaggerating the dangers. Why are people going to want to go
> cycling if it's a "war zone"?
>
> What you need to do is tell it like it /actually is/: a relatively safe
> and remarkably efficient, cheap and healthy way to get about. As
> opposed to some ridiculous story where folks will run over them for the
> sake of it, where they need to be civilly disobedient to get their
> rights, and where there's a war going on. That really sounds like a
> good reason to start using a bike! (not)

Peter Clinch is absolutely right.

"Donquijote1954" returns time and again, whining loudly about the
terrible dangers of riding a bicycle. He cries and pleads for a
complete redesign of the world's infrastructure. Meanwhile, millions
of us are using this existing world, riding our bikes for
transportation and recreation, enjoying it immensely, and suffering
none of the horrors he imagines.

What is it that makes characters like "Donquijote" portray bicycling
as dangerous? How can they remain so ignorant of the real data
showing how safe it is? Why do they try so hard to scare people away
from a beneficial activity they pretend to love?

Since I can't think of a gentler metaphor, pardon me - but
"Donquijote," you need to grow some balls! Some people are going to
occasionally honk their horns at you or yell at you, whether you walk,
ride your bicycle, ride your motorcycle or drive your car. It's true
whether there are bike lanes or no, whether the road is wide or
narrow, whether you're on a street or path or bike lane or crosswalk
or sidewalk.

Don't expect the police to take the role of your Mommy, to hold your
hand and tell the other guy he's being bad. You've got a right to the
road. Use it! Don't give any satisfaction to the jerks, and don't
let them worry you.

And for God's sake, stop whining!

- Frank Krygowski

 

[William]

On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
> You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
> Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
> that.
>
> Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
> & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
> sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
> partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>
> For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
> practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
> shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
> need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
> a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
> I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
> bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
> about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
> 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
> hour bike ride.

I don't blame you, biking works best
when everything is
more central and dense like a metro area.
>
> So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
> community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
> But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
> the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
> SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
> trip.
>
> So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> by bike.

Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
from nowhere land.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:

> So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> by bike.

Pat, a big underlying cause of it all is called THE SPRAWL. Our cities
have been designed around the car, and, regrettably, we often have to
rely on it to get places, say, over 5 miles. Nobody is saying to ban
cars here. A car makes sense sometimes, and it doesn't in others. We
are trying to address here those instances where the bike is both
doable and desirable. And connecting shopping areas by bike lanes and
bike paths is a good way to encourage people to get out there and do
something for the environment and for themselves.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> >http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/physically-separated-bike-lanes/
>
> They don't really help. And they've been shown not to help and we can
> see them not helping in practice.

Are you saying that those committed cyclists are stupid and that they
don't know what they are asking for? Remember they are not kids, but
real cyclists that tell you the real problems out there. How more real
can you get?

 

[Pat]

On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
> > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
> > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
> > that.
>
> > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
> > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
> > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
> > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>
> > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
> > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
> > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
> > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
> > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
> > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
> > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
> > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
> > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
> > hour bike ride.
>
> I don't blame you, biking works best
> when everything is
> more central and dense like a metro area.
>
>
>
> > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
> > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
> > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
> > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
> > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
> > trip.
>
> > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> > by bike.
>
> Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
> from nowhere land.

I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
me, because I don't wear a watch.

You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
that's what makes it nice.

On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
excitement around here.

Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.

So what about this "quality" thing?

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:48 am, [email protected] wrote:

> Don't expect the police to take the role of your Mommy, to hold your
> hand and tell the other guy he's being bad. You've got a right to the
> road. Use it! Don't give any satisfaction to the jerks, and don't
> let them worry you.
>
> And for God's sake, stop whining!
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Oh sure. And what you got to show for it, 1% of ridership? I guess 99%
of Americans don't have the balls to go and out there and ride either.
Actually, they go for the biggest SUV they can possibly find just to
play it safe. "Mom, I want an SUV!"

http://www.beststuff.com/images/articles/042604a.jpg

 

[Amy Blankenship]

"Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you,
>> > > > but
>> > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork.
>> > > > If you
>> > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more
>> > > > maligned
>> > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to
>> > > > use
>> > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>>
>> > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
>> > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>>
>> > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO
>> > > WE
>> > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
>> > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>>
>> > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
>> > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
>> > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
>> > that.
>>
>> > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
>> > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
>> > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
>> > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>>
>> > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
>> > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
>> > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
>> > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
>> > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
>> > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
>> > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
>> > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
>> > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
>> > hour bike ride.
>>
>> I don't blame you, biking works best
>> when everything is
>> more central and dense like a metro area.
>>
>>
>>
>> > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
>> > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
>> > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
>> > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
>> > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
>> > trip.
>>
>> > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
>> > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
>> > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
>> > by bike.
>>
>> Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
>> from nowhere land.
>
> I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
> nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
> background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
> nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
> What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
> worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
> Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
> version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
> somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
> underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
> Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
> me, because I don't wear a watch.
>
> You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
> virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
> You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
> hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
> I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
> that's what makes it nice.
>
> On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
> Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
> excitement around here.
>
> Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
> youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
> of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
> any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
> stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>
> So what about this "quality" thing?

If you had a Wal-Mart right there they would immediately start four-laning
the road in front of it and put in access roads. That would make it far
less bike friendly. Most ordinary sized grocery stores, however, do not
insist on four lane highways. Cluster a number of smaller shops around it
and you have most of the selection of Wal-Mart, probably better quality, and
a more bike-friendly environment.

-Amy

 

[Pat]

On Aug 1, 12:39 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you,
> >> > > > but
> >> > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork.
> >> > > > If you
> >> > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more
> >> > > > maligned
> >> > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to
> >> > > > use
> >> > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> >> > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> >> > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> >> > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO
> >> > > WE
> >> > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> >> > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> >> > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
> >> > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
> >> > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
> >> > that.
>
> >> > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
> >> > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
> >> > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
> >> > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>
> >> > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
> >> > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
> >> > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
> >> > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
> >> > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
> >> > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
> >> > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
> >> > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
> >> > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
> >> > hour bike ride.
>
> >> I don't blame you, biking works best
> >> when everything is
> >> more central and dense like a metro area.
>
> >> > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
> >> > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
> >> > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
> >> > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
> >> > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
> >> > trip.
>
> >> > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> >> > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> >> > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> >> > by bike.
>
> >> Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
> >> from nowhere land.
>
> > I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
> > nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
> > background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
> > nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
> > What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
> > worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
> > Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
> > version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
> > somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
> > underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
> > Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
> > me, because I don't wear a watch.
>
> > You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
> > virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
> > You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
> > hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
> > I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
> > that's what makes it nice.
>
> > On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
> > Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
> > excitement around here.
>
> > Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
> > youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
> > of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
> > any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
> > stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>
> > So what about this "quality" thing?
>
> If you had a Wal-Mart right there they would immediately start four-laning
> the road in front of it and put in access roads. That would make it far
> less bike friendly. Most ordinary sized grocery stores, however, do not
> insist on four lane highways. Cluster a number of smaller shops around it
> and you have most of the selection of Wal-Mart, probably better quality, and
> a more bike-friendly environment.
>
> -Amy

Man, I am dating myself, but remember the days when a few bigger
grocery stores out build next to a department store and share a common
entrance. It was like a Jamesway next to a Shop Rite. Jamesway,
Barkers and others all did that, here and there. You could go between
the stores, up at the front.

Now, all of those departments stores are closed. Must not have been
such a good idea.

The thing is, people LIKE Walmart. Maybe you don't and William
doesn't, but there are sure a whole lot of people out there who do.

We'd like one here. The sales tax revenue would help the city coffers
and people wouldn't have to drive so far to buy skivies.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 12:12 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
> Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
> excitement around here.
>

Though I live next to glamorous South Beach in Miami, I still find the
canoe the most exciting thing, and I got one ready to launch...

In South Beach you find quite a bit of biking particulary because
parking is so limited. Hardly any bike lanes, but people enjoy the
"safety in numbers," I guess. Same situation in Key West. So limited
parking is a good thing for biking. Scooters too are a good option for
some --like me-- beyond the distance doable in a bike. MULTIMODAL
TRANSPORTATION IS THE WAY TO GO, meaning bicycles, public
transportation, fast trains and, of course, cars, which include
carpooling, car sharing, etc.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:07 am, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:

> There are other ways, but most are not what would be acceptable in a
> civilised culture - eg the one which was responsible for a large increase in
> riding in London unfortunately involved killing 52 people...
>
> cheers,
> clive

In what way? It sounds like terrorism to me...

 

[Clive George]

"donquijote1954" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 1, 11:07 am, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> There are other ways, but most are not what would be acceptable in a
>> civilised culture - eg the one which was responsible for a large increase
>> in
>> riding in London unfortunately involved killing 52 people...
>>
>
> In what way? It sounds like terrorism to me...

There's a good reason for that...

(what it did was put people off using PT, so they gave bikes a try - it was
summer.)

cheers,
clive

 

[Mike Clark]

In message <[email protected]>
donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/physically-separated-bike-lanes/
> >
> > They don't really help. And they've been shown not to help and we can
> > see them not helping in practice.
>
> Are you saying that those committed cyclists are stupid and that they
> don't know what they are asking for? Remember they are not kids, but
> real cyclists that tell you the real problems out there. How more real
> can you get?
>

Lessons in life are often counter-intuitive.

Separated bike lanes are fine where they are separated, it's just that
sooner or later you have to have a junction and if you have more
separated lanes you end up with more complex junctions and that's where
the accidents happen.

What good is it if you decrease the accident rate at point 'a' along
a route and at the same time increase it at point 'b' along a route such
that the overall accident rate is higher?

In contrast to the 'idea' of ever more separate lanes being good for
improved safety there is the contradictory data that shows that in
places where you remove all the lane markings, signs and junction
priorities you often get a measurable increase in safety.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

 

[Amy Blankenship]

"Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 1, 12:39 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> >> > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at
>> >> > > > you,
>> >> > > > but
>> >> > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork.
>> >> > > > If you
>> >> > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more
>> >> > > > maligned
>> >> > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > use
>> >> > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>>
>> >> > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
>> >> > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>>
>> >> > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW
>> >> > > DO
>> >> > > WE
>> >> > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE
>> >> > > DUTCH
>> >> > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>>
>> >> > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong
>> >> > direction.
>> >> > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
>> >> > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
>> >> > that.
>>
>> >> > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to
>> >> > bike
>> >> > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
>> >> > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
>> >> > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>>
>> >> > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for
>> >> > football
>> >> > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
>> >> > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I
>> >> > just
>> >> > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately,
>> >> > there's
>> >> > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually
>> >> > because
>> >> > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
>> >> > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
>> >> > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
>> >> > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
>> >> > hour bike ride.
>>
>> >> I don't blame you, biking works best
>> >> when everything is
>> >> more central and dense like a metro area.
>>
>> >> > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
>> >> > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way
>> >> > issue.
>> >> > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to
>> >> > people,
>> >> > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
>> >> > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
>> >> > trip.
>>
>> >> > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
>> >> > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
>> >> > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage
>> >> > shopping
>> >> > by bike.
>>
>> >> Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
>> >> from nowhere land.
>>
>> > I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
>> > nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
>> > background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
>> > nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
>> > What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
>> > worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
>> > Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
>> > version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
>> > somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
>> > underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
>> > Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
>> > me, because I don't wear a watch.
>>
>> > You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
>> > virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
>> > You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
>> > hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
>> > I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
>> > that's what makes it nice.
>>
>> > On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
>> > Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
>> > excitement around here.
>>
>> > Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
>> > youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
>> > of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
>> > any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
>> > stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>>
>> > So what about this "quality" thing?
>>
>> If you had a Wal-Mart right there they would immediately start
>> four-laning
>> the road in front of it and put in access roads. That would make it far
>> less bike friendly. Most ordinary sized grocery stores, however, do not
>> insist on four lane highways. Cluster a number of smaller shops around
>> it
>> and you have most of the selection of Wal-Mart, probably better quality,
>> and
>> a more bike-friendly environment.
>>
>> -Amy
>
> Man, I am dating myself, but remember the days when a few bigger
> grocery stores out build next to a department store and share a common
> entrance. It was like a Jamesway next to a Shop Rite. Jamesway,
> Barkers and others all did that, here and there. You could go between
> the stores, up at the front.
>
> Now, all of those departments stores are closed. Must not have been
> such a good idea.
>
> The thing is, people LIKE Walmart. Maybe you don't and William
> doesn't, but there are sure a whole lot of people out there who do.
>
> We'd like one here. The sales tax revenue would help the city coffers
> and people wouldn't have to drive so far to buy skivies.

About that sales tax revenue...

http://www.newrules.org/retail/policefactsheet.pdf
http://amiba.net/pdf/barnstable_fiscal_impact_report.pdf
http://edlabor.house.gov/publications/WALMARTREPORT.pdf