Angry cyclist!



Originally Posted by jhuskey .

1. I think you have our permission to go ahead and expire today if you wish.
2. If you know anyting about safety you might consider a concept called risk reduction.
3. By the way I take offense to the playing God reference. You have lost all credibility in my world.
1. Thank you for your permission God... you do enjoy playing that role don't you.

2. Actually in the safety field we call it "risk management".

3. See #1.

Look... I have nothing against you or the pure heartfelt desire to be helpful that I am sure you have. But... IF you want to "save" postpone the death of all cyclist and hang the cost. It's simple! Post those "share the road" and the "beware of cyclists" signs every mile of every road, street, and highway in America.I bet that move alone could save half of the 600 cyclist deaths in America alone (I can just feel what the results would be). And I bet it would not cost much more than about 800 billion dollars to put up those signs. We'd never have to actually pay for the signs... just pay the interest on the bonds. I bet that wouldn't cost my wife and I together more than about $235 dollars a year... or would that be $235 each (who wants to screw with math... math is HARD). Of course later... we as tax payers can re-coop that money... by new special taxes for cyclist!!!

OR.... We could "save" 600 lives a year (that is well over 60,000 people saved by 2100) if we just make bicycles illegal. And while we're at it... make private cars against the law as well (that could save the entire PLANET). We all know the oceans would stop rising and the polar ice would refreeze if there was no private ownership. Er no private ownership of CARS I mean. Yeah... that's the ticket... government controlled mass transit... and nothing less (or more).

I know you mean well... I do. But your just wrong. Risk isn't what you think it is... risk isn't a process. Risk can't be managed (reduced as you say) with signs, taxes, or laws. A certain amount of risk in life... AS IN LIFE ITSELF... must be accepted.
 
Originally Posted by qdc15 .


1. Dave, your experience in the field of safety does not appear to have left you with a lot of insight on bicycling safety specifically. Your comments seem to be based more on emotion than knowledge.

2. I disagree that nothing that can be done to improve the safety of bicycling or that attempts to improve conditions for cyclists are not worth the effort or money.
1. True... many of my comments are in responce to what I read (your posts). Your posts are pure emotion... nothing else. I am not trying to teach you about safety management. I asked... where is your math?

2. Disagree with WHO and about what costs? I certainly never said NOTHING can be done... and I merely pointed out that unlimited costs are silly. Unless it is YOUR checkbook those UNLIMITED costs are going to be paid from... I'd like to actually talk dollars and cents.
 
Originally Posted by alienator .


Well said.
Yes it is!!!!

He completely diverted the conversation from the facts, figures, and the science of risk management... and made me the topic. Then he attempted to use his own misfortunes as credible experience. Well said for a forum post... even if a high school debate coach would have given that a failing grade.

Look... I am all for doing good work. I also have a big heart. But... this isn't about doing what feels right. We need to think and act like sane intelligent adults with concern to these problems.
 
Sheesh....


....In other news, here is a good example to have a recording device handy:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/us/2012/09/19/dnt-co-cyclists-harassed-kmgh.cnn



I am all for efforts to educate the public to make a cultural shift towards alternate, active modes of transportation. Efforts to improve cycling policy and infrastructure are welcome as well.
 
maydog said:
Sheesh.... ....In other news, here is a good example to have a recording device handy: http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/us/2012/09/19/dnt-co-cyclists-harassed-kmgh.cnn I am all for efforts to educate the public to make a cultural shift towards alternate, active modes of transportation. Efforts to improve cycling policy and infrastructure are welcome as well.
According to what I read, the police were going to "visit" the driver of the SUV in that video. There apparently was at least one other incident with that driver/vehicle.
 
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .


1. Thank you for your permission God... you do enjoy playing that role don't you.

2. Actually in the safety field we call it "risk management".

3. See #1.

Look... I have nothing against you or the pure heartfelt desire to be helpful that I am sure you have. But... IF you want to "save" postpone the death of all cyclist and hang the cost. It's simple! Post those "share the road" and the "beware of cyclists" signs every mile of every road, street, and highway in America.I bet that move alone could save half of the 600 cyclist deaths in America alone (I can just feel what the results would be). And I bet it would not cost much more than about 800 billion dollars to put up those signs. We'd never have to actually pay for the signs... just pay the interest on the bonds. I bet that wouldn't cost my wife and I together more than about $235 dollars a year... or would that be $235 each (who wants to screw with math... math is HARD). Of course later... we as tax payers can re-coop that money... by new special taxes for cyclist!!!

OR.... We could "save" 600 lives a year (that is well over 60,000 people saved by 2100) if we just make bicycles illegal. And while we're at it... make private cars against the law as well (that could save the entire PLANET). We all know the oceans would stop rising and the polar ice would refreeze if there was no private ownership. Er no private ownership of CARS I mean. Yeah... that's the ticket... government controlled mass transit... and nothing less (or more).

I know you mean well... I do. But your just wrong. Risk isn't what you think it is... risk isn't a process. Risk can't be managed (reduced as you say) with signs, taxes, or laws. A certain amount of risk in life... AS IN LIFE ITSELF... must be accepted.
Actually I have been a risk manager for 17 years and risk reduction is part of my theme. As far as playing God I leave that to others, as far as sane exchange I invite you to start first. As far as you.... I am done with you!
 
Originally Posted by jhuskey .
As far as you.... I am done with you!
Done with me? You mean... you admit I am right... correct in my assessment of safety. Thank You. But let me assure you that your approval isn't required.

I know that no amount of signage, laws, or tax money ether spent or collected will ever be enough for some people. You have your belief system... and so you believe. Logic and reason isn't a part of what you think should be the "standard".

We can plaster our bicycles with warning stickers (instead of paint jobs), add pounds of legally required bicycle safety devices to our bicycles, cover the roads, streets, and paths with warning signs for both motorist and cyclist, require bicycle licenses, bicycle training, bicycle insurance.... but to what end? What would be the result? Where is your data?


More laws. more government control, more bullcrap... to what end? Please.... answer me that one question... to what end? How many lives/injuries would your ideas help... and how? Where would it stop.... how would that work?
 
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter ....We can plaster our bicycles with warning stickers (instead of paint jobs), add pounds of legally required bicycle safety devices to our bicycles, cover the roads, streets, and paths with warning signs for both motorist and cyclist, require bicycle licenses, bicycle training, bicycle insurance.... but to what end?
Interesting ideas but none are on par with the actual improvements that have been implemented in Washington DC in recent years. You can rail against progress or work for change. Come visit the nation's capitol and see how we do it.

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .


... this isn't about doing what feels right. We need to think and act like sane intelligent adults with concern to these problems.
When do you propose we begin? Why don't you start?
 
By the way I take offense to the playing God reference.

Hey! Work yer own side of the street, bub! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif



Ohio has this useless and ignored blurb in our Digest of Motor Vehicle Laws: http://publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/hsy7607.pdf

[SIZE= 14px]Maintain a safety zone of approximately three feet between the car and [/SIZE][SIZE= 14px]the bicyclist.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 14px]Pass a bicyclist only when it can be done safely.[/SIZE]


[SIZE= 14px]It is not worth the ink and paper it took to print it.[/SIZE]
 
Originally Posted by qdc15 .

Interesting ideas but none are on par with the actual improvements that have been implemented in Washington DC in recent years. You can rail against progress or work for change. Come visit the nation's capitol and see how we do it.
Oh yes, of course you must be part of those great big brained central planners in DC! I would be shocked if you didn't know better than the entire world. There in our nations capital all you smart people have figured out just how everything should be done. Please.... preach to us small minded bicycle riders and enlighten us with how we should live. Tell us stories of how the people in DC found the true meaning of life and how to live it.

Teach us! What program in DC has saved the most cyclist. So I can save the life of cyclists here in my small town where we just aren't as learned as you in DC. What progressive and futuristic uses have you come up with for a machine invented 150 years ago.
 
Calm down. No reason to get emotional. Regrettably I'm not responsible for the improved conditions for cyclists in DC. My only contribution to the cycle life of DC is to follow the lead of Mike Bailey and Mike Pierce by providing transportation of goods that traditionally would require the use of a motor vehicle. Before that, I spent many years as a messenger with a longish commute which may have influenced some drivers to try bike commuting. I don't know. I try to lead by example. I've been doing the same longish commute with a longish trailer in tow for a few years now and I can tell you, people notice. I get inquiries about the trailer. Everyone wants one. People recognize me when I'm away from my bike, introduce themselves.

I do think my mere presence in traffic 40hrs/wk has marginally improved the safety of other riders in the city and helped cyclists gain the respect of drivers. You're right though. I should do more.
 
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

By the way I take offense to the playing God reference.

Hey! Work yer own side of the street, bub! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif



Ohio has this useless and ignored blurb in our Digest of Motor Vehicle Laws: http://publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/hsy7607.pdf

[SIZE= 14px]Maintain a safety zone of approximately three feet between the car and [/SIZE][SIZE= 14px]the bicyclist.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 14px]Pass a bicyclist only when it can be done safely.[/SIZE]


[SIZE= 14px]It is not worth the ink and paper it took to print it.[/SIZE]
Get it repealed, save taxpayer's money on ink and paper. Vote Republican.
 
Originally Posted by qdc15 .

I do think my mere presence in traffic 40hrs/wk has marginally improved the safety of other riders in the city and helped cyclists gain the respect of drivers. You're right though. I should do more.
Being on the roads is IMHO is the best thing that the cyclist can do to increase safety.... for themselves and other cyclist. There are some stats that suggest... as risk-feeling as cycling can feel... it is safer to cycle than drive. So you can actually increase your actual safety by being on a bicycle [or so some stats suggest]. But that doesn't mean the cyclist will feel safer.

The situation in traffic is called 'low risk high consequence". Meaning that even though the odds of being in a car-bicycle crash is pretty low.... the consequence is often deadly. That can be scarey. Of course... we all know how to deal with that part.

As for helping other cyclist be safer... being on the roads and being seen by the motorist... helps remind the motorists that bicycles are sharing the roads. And yes... it is that stupid simple.

No signs are really all that helpful... most motorist can not tell you what the posted speed limit is even after only driving a few feet past the speed limit sign. This has been tested many times by police officers using radar. There are so many traffic laws police and lawyers have to hit the books regularly... just to "look-up" what laws may apply to what case. Jury's no longer expect anyone to know all the hundred of thousands of traffic laws. More useless laws... really are wasted ink.
 
Get it repealed,

No one knows it exists and it has had zero effect on drivers in my state.

save taxpayer's money on ink and paper.

It would just be wasted on some other worthless law. 2010 saw 40,627 new laws on the books in the USA. Another 40,000 useless feel-good laws will make no difference.

Vote Republican.

Of course!

The other choice is socialism!





More useless laws... really are wasted ink.

Exactly. They. Just. Don't. Get. It.
 
Cutter, so we agree on something! Now, how can we increase the number of bicycles on the road?

I'm not buying the argument that traffic laws, traffic signs, speed limits, etc. are worthless. But we don't have to agree on everything. :)
 
Originally Posted by qdc15 .

Cutter, so we agree on something! Now, how can we increase the number of bicycles on the road?

I'm not buying the argument that traffic laws, traffic signs, speed limits, etc. are worthless. But we don't have to agree on everything. :)

http://dvice.com/archives/2007/09/a-town-with-no-traffic-signs.php

Buy this.
 
Cool. I wonder if that would work here where nearly 500,000 commuters enter the city from nearby states every working day. Angry American wage slaves sitting for hours in snarled traffic, not happy small town Dutch folks. I think we have a way to go before we can get rid of traffic laws here.

What's working here is increased enforcement, targeting aggressive driving. Public service messages illustrating consequences of aggressive driving. Speed cameras and red light cameras.

If you think repeal of three foot laws will result in fewer unsafe passes, we disagree.
 
Laws mean nothing without enforcement. And the reality is that we have far more laws than could ever be equitably enforced. And we add to that number as a nation by about 40,000 each year.

I was taught in driver's ed many years ago to pass cyclists with enough room that I wouldn't hit them if they tipped over--which is more than 3 feet, it's more like 6+ feet.

By "angry American wage slaves" did you really mean "cagers"?

Maybe if they only had to be courteous on their drive instead of following a zillion nanny-state traffic laws they wouldn't be so angry.
 
Originally Posted by jpr95 .By "angry American wage slaves" did you really mean "cagers"?
Maybe if they only had to be courteous on their drive instead of following a zillion nanny-state traffic laws they wouldn't be so angry.
No, many of us use public transportation and/or bicycles. Very few American localities have greater percentage of public transportation users or bicycle commuters.

Sometimes the power goes out and we see how well unregulated traffic works. Gridlock. Doesn't make anyone less angry. About 700000 commuters. Just leave them to their own ways? I admire your utopian vision. It is appealing.
 
I didn't know there was a problem of too many laws. Maybe instead of paper and ink they could store them on digital media. Regardless, the idea that there are too many laws isn't a good argument against any one of them. Having too much of something isn't a reason to have none of it.