A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????



Oh sorry you didn't mean it that way :)

"Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Heh, again.
>
> --
> --Scott
> "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> Metaphorically speaking, if you bring your dog over to my lawn to
> >> defecate on it, I will put on rubber gloves and toss the feces back

over
> >> the fence into your yard.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tom Sherman - Earth

> >
> > Watching Freewheeling defecate on his own dog might be amusing :)
> >
> >

>
>
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
> > ...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The

more we
> > kill, the better....

>
> EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
> OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
> ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth


It appears the loony left is starting to emerge from Mr Sherman
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....

>
> SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
> SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
> YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>

That was never my justification for the war, nor should it have been yours.
In fact, I said explicitly that Iraq did not have strategic WMD else they'd
have used them to deter an invasion. The possibility that they were
developing such a capability concerned me, as it ought to have concerned any
rational person (which leaves out the French, I guess)... In fact, as the
Kay report makes clear, they *were* developing strategic WMD. The argument
that WMD stockpiles were not found after the fact (though their clear
designs to produce them were) is not a valid argument that the invasion
wasn't justified, because it fails to take into account both the
pre-invasion uncertainty (including Saddam's actions) and the other reasons
for an invasion, including the mass destructive character of the regime
itself, as well as Saddam's documented support for terrorism. France has
WMD, and I'm not worried about that. England has them, as does Israel.
That doesn't worry me.

Far more importantly, I was correct that the US presence was the catalyst
for a counter-wave, or opposing vanguard to that of the terrorists, a
counter-wave that can ultimately make us secure. That was, and is, the
essential argument. That was always sufficient justification. I can repost
some of my arguments if you like, but they're also in the archives.

The core issue is whether you're in active opposition to the totalitarian
wave that's sweeping the world, or choose to disregard or ignore it, which
is another way of empowering it. You're clearly in the latter category, no
matter the status of WMD. If they remain viable, they'll eventually obtain
those devices. Wiping them out before they obtain such a capability is the
only option we have. And that doesn't mean just killing the terrorists, it
means changing the nature of the authoritarian swamp that breeds terrorists.

I was right. And furthermore, that was never really in any doubt. Which
leaves the question of why you opposed it, and still apparently oppose it,
unanswered.


> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> ...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The
>> more we kill, the better....

>
> EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
> OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS ALLIED
> TO THE UNITED STATES?


This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars of
soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye on what
Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two generations. What
sort of moral high ground do you think you're standing on?

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
>
 
Zach:

In all seriousness, Tom is full of ****. Reasoning with him doesn't
accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more is
there to say?

I can understand, after a fashion, why people hate the US, or why they hate
the authority it represents. In a sense I understand the resentment
expressed by people like Ward Churchill about all those "little Eichmans" in
the World Trade Center. But subtract the resentment, the rage, that modern
therapy says we ought to acknowledge for our own mental health, and it seems
reasonable to ask is he right that those financial planners in the WTC were
"little Eichmans?" The first hurdle would seem to be whether it were true
that their actions impoverished, rather than enriched, people that were
deemed their "victims." The research consensus on this is quite clear:
although there are losers and winners as a result of any policy, the net
effect of trade is a welfare benefit, which is born out by a documented net
transfer of wealth from developed to developing nations for the last fifty
years.

But assuming that was not the case, and there were a net harm... is it the
case that the people in the WTC were knowledgable about this, as one might
expect the bureoucrats in the Third Reich were about the effect of their
actions on the Jews? That's not very likely, since the literature (as I
pointed out) points in the very opposite direction. At most, they were
duped by the literature into believing they were helping... which suggests
they were never appropriate targets for anything.

What have we left? Human injustice (which we've admittedly failed to
eliminate), poverty (likewise), and an understandable resentment about the
human condition. So, should we take Ward Churchill's allegations seriously,
or should we pity him and those who sympathize with his arguments? Should
we join his cause, or should we seek to develop those undeveloped economies,
free people from the grip of authoritarianism and tyranny, and expand
economic opportunity through trade, making his cause a moot point?

There is a great deal wrong in the world. The "haves" are far more self
absorbed than they ought to be. But I see no reason to give the slightest
legitimacy to the Ward Churchills or the Michael Moores of the world. They
could be addressing real and actual wrongs, but have instead taken an old
tried and not-very-true shortcut, followed by the Stalinists before them.
They deserve not the slightest respect, no matter the respect earned or
unearned by George Bush and Company.
--
--Scott
"Zach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>> Metaphorically speaking, if you bring your dog over to my lawn to
>> defecate on it, I will put on rubber gloves and toss the feces back

> over
>> the fence into your yard.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Earth

>
> Why not just dig a small hole for them in your yard and bury them in
> your yard? After all the feces have been produced, that is a fact that
> you can't change and whatever odours they produce as they decay will be
> near enough your yard to smell whether you throw them over your
> neighbours fence or not. Plus by just burying them in your yard you
> won't have to get your rubber gloves soiled. All metaphorically
> speaking, of course.
>
> Zach
>
 
Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>...About Iraq, I *was* right....

>>
>>SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>>SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>>YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>

>
> That was never my justification for the war, nor should it have been yours....


Then why did you argue the point so strenuously? Just admit you were
wrong. Sheesh!

> I was right. And furthermore, that was never really in any doubt....


Pound that chest! Blow your trumpet! All hail the MIGHTY
FREEWHEELING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Johnny NoCom and Fabrizio Mazzoleni should be taking notes on
self-promotion.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth
 
Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The
>>>more we kill, the better....

>>
>>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
>>OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS ALLIED
>>TO THE UNITED STATES?

>
>
> This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars of
> soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye on what
> Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two generations. What
> sort of moral high ground do you think you're standing on?


When did I even claim Castro was a model of human rights leadership?
Never, of course. (But of course Castro is still better than the fascist
Battista would have been.)

Typical right-wing tactic - accuse people of supporting a position they
have never taken. I could just as well ask. "Why do you support crushing
puppies and kittens, Mr. Talkington?" And it would be just as ridiculous.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth
 
Freewheeling wrote:

> Zach:
>
> In all seriousness, Tom is full of ****. Reasoning with him doesn't
> accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more is
> there to say?...


That of course is a misrepresentation (well DUH!).

However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments
that the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
populations.

All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they
effect their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or
willfully not looking.

And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public
forum devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you get.

--
Tom Sherman -
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....

>
> SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
> SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
> YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>


I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war movies,
as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I know
from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6 to 8
months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to me
anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD knowing
what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to the war what
would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD? Common sense
would indicate almost none.

After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage, and
then leave?

skip
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>>>
>>>SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>>>SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>>>YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>>

>>
>> That was never my justification for the war, nor should it have been
>> yours....

>
> Then why did you argue the point so strenuously? Just admit you were
> wrong. Sheesh!


I argued that your reasoning wasn't sound, and it still isn't. And my
primary argument was that the doubt that existed ought to be on the side of
security, rather than a presumption of innocence. There was nothing wrong
with that logic. There still isn't. The only difference is that the
uncertainty about whether he had WMD has been *mostly* removed. I say
*mostly* because there still seems to be some doubt about a large number of
truck shipments that went over the Syrian border, while the UN inspectors
were apparently boozed up.

>
>> I was right. And furthermore, that was never really in any doubt....

>
> Pound that chest! Blow your trumpet! All hail the MIGHTY
> FREEWHEELING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I said that the primary objective was to liberalize and democratize the
middle east and that Iraqis were capable of such a social transformation.
That happened to be correct, but most of the Kudos goes to the Iraqis who
made it happen (and who are still making it happen). Zero kudos goes to
you, my friend. None at all. Not only did you not believe in those people,
but you believed that their continued subjugation under a brutal
authoritarianism was just fine. Furthermore, I daresay you still think that
about Darfur, although if you've changed your tune on that it might be about
time to let the UN know they're full of it.

>
> Johnny NoCom and Fabrizio Mazzoleni should be taking notes on
> self-promotion.


The principle was correct. That's all I've ever said. It's not really that
complicated, or "personal." That stuff's in your head.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
 
skip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>...About Iraq, I *was* right....

>>
>>SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>>SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>>YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>
>>--
>>Tom Sherman - Earth
>>

>
>
> I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war movies,
> as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I know
> from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
> advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6 to 8
> months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to me
> anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD knowing
> what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to the war what
> would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD? Common sense
> would indicate almost none.


So if Hussein had disarmed, and the presence of the UN inspectors and
sanctions was preventing Iraq from rearming, what was the necessity to
invade?

> After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
> search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
> sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage, and
> then leave?


You are 50% of the way there. Apologize to the Iraqi people for all
those killed and injured, leave, and then pay them compensation so they
can fix the damage.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The
>>>>more we kill, the better....
>>>
>>>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
>>>OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
>>>ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?

>>
>>
>> This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars
>> of soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye
>> on what Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two
>> generations. What sort of moral high ground do you think you're standing
>> on?

>
> When did I even claim Castro was a model of human rights leadership?
> Never, of course.


I said you cast a blind eye, which your very next statement reveals as
accurate.

> (But of course Castro is still better than the fascist Battista would have
> been.)


I rest my case. Castro has killed at a rate at least an order of magnitude
greater than Batista, not to mention the fact that during that regime people
were free to emigrate. Not even a close call. Although authoritarian
regimes of the right can be brutal, their murdering ways don't hold a candle
to the record of tyrannies of the left. A recently published book on the
Stalinist era speculates that the reason why his excesses were never equated
with those of ****** was that the left was embarassed by them, and there
were few pictures to hold their feet to the fire. But as everyone knows
Stalin murdered five times as many people as ******. (And no, this doesn't
excuse Nazism, it indicts the left. Big difference.)

>
> Typical right-wing tactic - accuse people of supporting a position they
> have never taken.


Er, precisely what *you* did, my friend. I just said you cast a blind eye
on Castro, and you've proved my point.

> I could just as well ask. "Why do you support crushing puppies and
> kittens, Mr. Talkington?"


Ah well, because there are just too many puppies and kittens, of course.

> And it would be just as ridiculous.


I accused you of precisely what you've done, in this very post. Nothing
more.


>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
 
Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>>>>
>>>>SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>>>>SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>>>>YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>>>
>>>
>>>That was never my justification for the war, nor should it have been
>>>yours....

>>
>>Then why did you argue the point so strenuously? Just admit you were
>>wrong. Sheesh!

>
>
> I argued that your reasoning wasn't sound, and it still isn't. And my
> primary argument was that the doubt that existed ought to be on the side of
> security, rather than a presumption of innocence. There was nothing wrong
> with that logic. There still isn't....


Other than tens of thousands of dead and injured Iraqis, 1500+ dead US
service personnel, tens of thousands of injured (and many more
psychologically damaged) US service personnel, billions of dollars of
damage in Iraq, 200+ billion dollars of US national debt, and the
credibility of the US government when a real threat occurs. As you said,
nothing wrong at all.

The only difference is that the
> uncertainty about whether he had WMD has been *mostly* removed. I say
> *mostly* because there still seems to be some doubt about a large number of
> truck shipments that went over the Syrian border, while the UN inspectors
> were apparently boozed up....


I see the right-wing has its own goofy conspiracy theories.

>>>I was right. And furthermore, that was never really in any doubt....

>>
>>Pound that chest! Blow your trumpet! All hail the MIGHTY
>>FREEWHEELING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>
>
> I said that the primary objective was to liberalize and democratize the
> middle east and that Iraqis were capable of such a social transformation.
> That happened to be correct, but most of the Kudos goes to the Iraqis who
> made it happen (and who are still making it happen). Zero kudos goes to
> you, my friend. None at all. Not only did you not believe in those people,
> but you believed that their continued subjugation under a brutal
> authoritarianism was just fine. Furthermore, I daresay you still think that
> about Darfur, although if you've changed your tune on that it might be about
> time to let the UN know they're full of it....


I believe that the Iraqis are perfectly capable of taking care of
themselves, which is why the US forces should be gone from Iraq as soon
as the available transpiration allows.

By the way, reportedly Sistani is barely more progressive than Ruhollah
Khomeini was.

>>Johnny NoCom and Fabrizio Mazzoleni should be taking notes on
>>self-promotion.

>
> The principle was correct. That's all I've ever said. It's not really that
> complicated, or "personal." That stuff's in your head.


Yes, someone had to prove he was manlier than his father was. Maybe that
is why it appeals to you.

--
Tom Sherman – Pissing Contest Hell
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> Zach:
>>
>> In all seriousness, Tom is full of ****. Reasoning with him doesn't
>> accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more
>> is there to say?...

>
> That of course is a misrepresentation (well DUH!).


<quote>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?</quote>

>
> However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
> unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
> civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments that
> the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
> populations.


Millions of civilians? But even if these allegations were true, the
justification for them within the context of the Cold War (whether the left
deliberately killed not just millions, but hundreds of millions) was the
policy or "realpolitik" and "stability" which your sound now tacitly
supports as the alternative to the stated Bush policy of democratization.
By adopting the position you decry, you've sacrificed any moral high ground
you might have claimed.
>
> All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
> people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
> population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they effect
> their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or willfully not
> looking.


I might be open to some actual proof of this, were not your proposed cure so
discredited. If I had to choose between the corruption and avarice of the
Politburo and that of the US Congress and Executive together with "big
business" the choice wouldn't be a difficult one to make.
>
> And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public forum
> devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you get.


Why would I apologize for someone else's actions over whom I have little
control?

The avarice in western society is circumscribed, and you have both a vote
and political voice to oppose it (if you could figure out how to do so
effectively and convincingly). Those who live under the avarice of leftist
totalitarian regimes are not so lucky.

It's not that I'm in favor of the avaricious and opposed to the poor. It's
that your diagnosis and proposed cures are worse than the disease.
Demonstrably, a lot worse. But believe it or not, I do understand your
anger. I just don't think you've accurately assessed the situation at all.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman -
>
 
Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The
>>>>>more we kill, the better....
>>>>
>>>>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
>>>>OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
>>>>ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?
>>>
>>>
>>>This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars
>>>of soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye
>>>on what Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two
>>>generations. What sort of moral high ground do you think you're standing
>>>on?

>>
>>When did I even claim Castro was a model of human rights leadership?
>>Never, of course.

>
>
> I said you cast a blind eye, which your very next statement reveals as
> accurate.
>
>
>>(But of course Castro is still better than the fascist Battista would have
>>been.)

>
>
> I rest my case. Castro has killed at a rate at least an order of magnitude
> greater than Batista, not to mention the fact that during that regime people
> were free to emigrate. Not even a close call. Although authoritarian
> regimes of the right can be brutal, their murdering ways don't hold a candle
> to the record of tyrannies of the left. A recently published book on the
> Stalinist era speculates that the reason why his excesses were never equated
> with those of ****** was that the left was embarassed by them, and there
> were few pictures to hold their feet to the fire. But as everyone knows
> Stalin murdered five times as many people as ******. (And no, this doesn't
> excuse Nazism, it indicts the left. Big difference.)


And exactly how was the Soviet Union "communist"? The number of worker
run enterprises was approximately zero. And if all on the political left
are equivalent to Stalin, then all on the political right must logically
be equivalent to ******. Like than comparison?

There is much more to it then the number of people murdered. Under the
fascist regimes such as Battista's, life is a living hell for most
people, as they are effectively economic slaves worked relentlessly by
the elite in return for bare subsistence wages. And just where could
they emigrate to where they would have a better life?

>>Typical right-wing tactic - accuse people of supporting a position they
>>have never taken.

>
>
> Er, precisely what *you* did, my friend. I just said you cast a blind eye
> on Castro, and you've proved my point.


I am not your friend.

Why blind eye? By implication, I stated that Castro's human rights
record left much to be desired. Do you disagree with that, and believe
Castro is a human rights exemplar?

>>I could just as well ask. "Why do you support crushing puppies and
>>kittens, Mr. Talkington?"

>
>
> Ah well, because there are just too many puppies and kittens, of course.


So you believe the puppies and kittens should be killed in a manner that
causes a great deal of pain. I am glad we clarified this matter.

--
Tom Sherman – Pissing Contest Hell
 
Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Zach:
>>>
>>>In all seriousness, Tom is full of ****. Reasoning with him doesn't
>>>accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more
>>>is there to say?...

>>
>>That of course is a misrepresentation (well DUH!).

>
>
> <quote>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
> OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
> ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?</quote>
>
>>However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
>>unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
>>civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments that
>>the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
>>populations.

>
>
> Millions of civilians? But even if these allegations were true, the
> justification for them within the context of the Cold War (whether the left
> deliberately killed not just millions, but hundreds of millions) was the
> policy or "realpolitik" and "stability" which your sound now tacitly
> supports as the alternative to the stated Bush policy of democratization.
> By adopting the position you decry, you've sacrificed any moral high ground
> you might have claimed.


If Cheney/Rove et al truly believe in freedom and opportunity for all,
the moon is made of green cheese. I am not that gullible.

>>All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
>>people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
>>population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they effect
>>their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or willfully not
>>looking.

>
>
> I might be open to some actual proof of this, were not your proposed cure so
> discredited. If I had to choose between the corruption and avarice of the
> Politburo and that of the US Congress and Executive together with "big
> business" the choice wouldn't be a difficult one to make.


What do you suppose my proposed cure is?

Typical right wing - anyone who disagrees with Rove/Norquist/Strauss et
al is a supporter of murderous, totalitarian, command economy regimes
exemplified by Stalin and Brother No. 1.

Have you noticed how all the people in Scandinavia and Benelux are
living miserable lives in abject poverty surrounded by violence? Yes, I
am a horrible person for wishing the living conditions in those
countries on other people.

>>And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public forum
>>devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you get.

>
>
> Why would I apologize for someone else's actions over whom I have little
> control?


I was using apology in the sense of providing support for a position.

> The avarice in western society is circumscribed, and you have both a vote
> and political voice to oppose it (if you could figure out how to do so
> effectively and convincingly). Those who live under the avarice of leftist
> totalitarian regimes are not so lucky.
>
> It's not that I'm in favor of the avaricious and opposed to the poor. It's
> that your diagnosis and proposed cures are worse than the disease.
> Demonstrably, a lot worse. But believe it or not, I do understand your
> anger. I just don't think you've accurately assessed the situation at all.


You of course deliberately misrepresent what my "proposed cure" is. And
you were the one to whine about debating tactics.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I really don't care what you
think, and have no interest in changing your mind. But I am happy to
fling the **** right back when someone else dumps it in an inappropriate
space. So if you don't want to see any more political posts from me, two
solutions are really obvious.

--
Tom Sherman – Pissing Contest Hell
 
"skip" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....

>>
>> SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>> SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>> YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>>

>
> I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war movies,
> as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I know
> from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
> advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6 to 8
> months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to me
> anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD
> knowing what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to the
> war what would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD? Common
> sense would indicate almost none.


The Left was rather inconsistent on this. One of their arguments was that
Saddam would loose some sort of doomsday weapon if we invaded (like
smallpox). As you say, it was clear that they had no *strategic* WMD at the
time, but almost everyone believed they had tactical weapons of some sort,
and were probably developing a strategic capability. Those were both
reasonable suppositions, and it would have been decidedly unreasonable to
assume otherwise given the stakes.

Consider that the main reason that we never felt compelled to attack the
Soviets was that we knew, because of the eavesdropping on the transatlantic
cable, exactly what their plans were at all times. Uncertainty is what
compels us to act, not certainty.

But as I said at the time, those weren't the only reasons to change that
regime. We knew that Saddam was bankrolling terrorists. We now also know
that there was an ongoing relationship with Al Qaeda, although there is
little evidence of outright collaboration. (But since it was Osama who was
seeking collaboration, there was also no good reason to assume that a
collaboration wouldn't occur sooner or later.)

The primary reason to change regimes, however, was to start a counter-wave
that opposed the "vanguard" of the Salafist totalitarians. Absent a
vanguard to oppose their vanguard, the only thing standing in their way was
a few authoritarian regimes that, every day, gave renewed justification for
their movement. Paul Berman wrote a book about this, and it was always job
one from my perspective. Had the Democrats proposed it, along with a plan
(note that Bush never did actually have a plan, just an idea) I'd have voted
for them. So would a lot of others.

But the fact is that because the Democrats have been so heavily influenced
by their left wing they've been tone deaf on this issue. And they still
are, as far as I can tell.

>
> After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
> search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
> sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage,
> and then leave?


I'll tell you the truth, and I've said it before, as far as I'm concerned
both the oil and the WMD might as well have been excuses for doing the right
thing. Assuming we weren't about to do the right thing for the right
reasons, we might as well do it for the wrong reasons. The important thing
is that the freedom vanguard now has a foothold. And that really *is* the
important thing.

Honest, Tom. It's ultimately the only thing that matters.

Wars aren't won by the side that makes no mistakes. They're won by the side
that makes the fewest mistakes.

>
> skip
>
>
 
--
--Scott
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> skip wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>>>
>>>SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>>>SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>>>YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Tom Sherman - Earth
>>>

>>
>>
>> I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war
>> movies, as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick.
>> What I know from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with
>> a huge advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6
>> to 8 months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to
>> me anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD
>> knowing what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to
>> the war what would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD?
>> Common sense would indicate almost none.

>
> So if Hussein had disarmed, and the presence of the UN inspectors and
> sanctions was preventing Iraq from rearming, what was the necessity to
> invade?


OK, assuming that was the case, and assuming we could determine it with
certainty (which wasn't really possible, but we'll assume it for the sake of
argument), how about the fact that he was, according to Freedom House, the
most evil murderous tyrant on the planet. How about that?

Not that even this was the best reason. The best reason is that we needed a
democratic demonstration project in the heart of the Middle East, for
reasons that you apparently can't comprehend.

>
>> After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
>> search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
>> sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage,
>> and then leave?

>
> You are 50% of the way there. Apologize to the Iraqi people for all those
> killed and injured, leave, and then pay them compensation so they can fix
> the damage.


Oops sorry, we're only here for the weapons. Since there aren't any, here's
a fiver so you can rebuild that polluted shack you were living in. Never
mind about the thugs in your midst who will swoop down like the hand of
Lucifer once we're gone, and never mind about the domain of the Swamp Arabs,
which Saddam destroyed, and about the slaughterhouses in Fallujah which will
spread from one end of the country to the other in a nonce. Drop us a line
once in awhile to let us know how you're doing.

Yeah, right. Great plan.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
 
Freewheeling wrote:

> "skip" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>>>
>>>SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>>>SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>>>YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Tom Sherman - Earth
>>>

>>
>>I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war movies,
>>as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I know
>>from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
>>advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6 to 8
>>months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to me
>>anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD
>>knowing what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to the
>>war what would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD? Common
>>sense would indicate almost none.

>
>
> The Left was rather inconsistent on this. One of their arguments was that
> Saddam would loose some sort of doomsday weapon if we invaded (like
> smallpox). As you say, it was clear that they had no *strategic* WMD at the
> time, but almost everyone believed they had tactical weapons of some sort,
> and were probably developing a strategic capability. Those were both
> reasonable suppositions, and it would have been decidedly unreasonable to
> assume otherwise given the stakes.
>
> Consider that the main reason that we never felt compelled to attack the
> Soviets was that we knew, because of the eavesdropping on the transatlantic
> cable, exactly what their plans were at all times. Uncertainty is what
> compels us to act, not certainty.


This is why you should always take blind corners and traverse
intersections with poor sight distances at full speed.

> But as I said at the time, those weren't the only reasons to change that
> regime. We knew that Saddam was bankrolling terrorists. We now also know
> that there was an ongoing relationship with Al Qaeda, although there is
> little evidence of outright collaboration. (But since it was Osama who was
> seeking collaboration, there was also no good reason to assume that a
> collaboration wouldn't occur sooner or later.)


Osama bin Laden used to cooperate with the CIA, and was one of Reagan's
"freedom fighters". Should we have bombed the CIA offices and the Reagan
ranch?

> The primary reason to change regimes, however, was to start a counter-wave
> that opposed the "vanguard" of the Salafist totalitarians. Absent a
> vanguard to oppose their vanguard, the only thing standing in their way was
> a few authoritarian regimes that, every day, gave renewed justification for
> their movement. Paul Berman wrote a book about this, and it was always job
> one from my perspective. Had the Democrats proposed it, along with a plan
> (note that Bush never did actually have a plan, just an idea) I'd have voted
> for them. So would a lot of others.
>
> But the fact is that because the Democrats have been so heavily influenced
> by their left wing they've been tone deaf on this issue. And they still
> are, as far as I can tell.


Democrats heavily influenced by the left wing? Is that why most of them
voted for the conquest of Iraq. Bahahahahahaha! Get real!

>>After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
>>search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
>>sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage,
>>and then leave?

>
>
> I'll tell you the truth, and I've said it before, as far as I'm concerned
> both the oil and the WMD might as well have been excuses for doing the right
> thing. Assuming we weren't about to do the right thing for the right
> reasons, we might as well do it for the wrong reasons. The important thing
> is that the freedom vanguard now has a foothold. And that really *is* the
> important thing.


The freedom to obey the Fatwahs of Sistani? Freedom like the US brought
to Iran in 1953 when the firm of Dulles and Dulles engineered a coup
against the democratic government of Mossadegh and installed the
despotic Reza Pahlavi to the throne? Or the freedom that Dulles and
Dulles brought to Guatemala, Kissinger and Nixon brought to Chile, or
that Kissinger and Ford brought to East Timor? Not to mention the
freedom the US supports in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, and the
former Soviet states in Central Asia.

> Honest, Tom. It's ultimately the only thing that matters....


No, the only thing that matters is power. Great wealth by itself is not
enough, having much more than others and dominating them is what counts.

> Wars aren't won by the side that makes no mistakes. They're won by the side
> that makes the fewest mistakes.


So far the neo-cons are following bin Laden's game plan more closely
that he could have believed possible. Every Iraqi and Palestinian death
and injury at the hands of the US military and IDF, every house
destroyed and tree uprooted by the same forces, every new Israeli
settlement in the West Bank, and every report of torture, violation of
human rights, and murder from Guantonomo Bay, Abu Ghraib, Bahgram, and
Diego Garcia, and every person sent by the US to a client state to be
tortured is a political victory for bin Laden.

--
Tom Sherman – Pissing Contest Hell
 
Freewheeling wrote:

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>> So if Hussein had disarmed, and the presence of the UN inspectors and
>>> sanctions was preventing Iraq from rearming, what was the necessity to
>>> invade?

>
>
> OK, assuming that was the case, and assuming we could determine it with
> certainty (which wasn't really possible, but we'll assume it for the sake of
> argument), how about the fact that he was, according to Freedom House, the
> most evil murderous tyrant on the planet. How about that?


Donald Rumsfeld went to Iraq, and smiled as he shook Saddam Hussein's
hand, so his human right's record must not be too objectionable to the
Cheney/Rove administration. Most of the deaths that could be considered
Hussein's responsibility occurred as a result of the Iraq/Iraq war, in
which he was supported by a Republican US administration.

> Not that even this was the best reason. The best reason is that we needed a
> democratic demonstration project in the heart of the Middle East, for
> reasons that you apparently can't comprehend.


The US wanted caucuses, where they could influence the outcome (see Loya
Jirga that appointed Karzai in Afghanistan). Elections were held because
Sistani insisted on them. Can the revisionist history.

Besides, Cheney/Rove et al never talked about bring democracy to Iraq
until Plan A (WMD), Plan B (9/11/2001 connection) and Plan C (al Qaida
cooperation) fell through. Stating the true objective of controlling
Mideast oil production as part of “full spectrum dominance” would not
sell that well to the US public would it?

I comprehend the true motive of PNAC et al perfectly well.

>>>>> After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
>>>>> search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
>>>>> sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage,
>>>>> and then leave?

>>
>>>
>>> You are 50% of the way there. Apologize to the Iraqi people for all those
>>> killed and injured, leave, and then pay them compensation so they can fix
>>> the damage.

>
>
> Oops sorry, we're only here for the weapons. Since there aren't any, here's
> a fiver so you can rebuild that polluted shack you were living in. Never
> mind about the thugs in your midst who will swoop down like the hand of
> Lucifer once we're gone, and never mind about the domain of the Swamp Arabs,
> which Saddam destroyed, and about the slaughterhouses in Fallujah which will
> spread from one end of the country to the other in a nonce. Drop us a line
> once in awhile to let us know how you're doing.


Most Iraqis (except the quislings) view the US as a conqueror and want
ALL the US forces out of the country? The presence of the US forces is
the main cause of violence in Iraq. If the US is not intent on creating
a client state, why not let the UN take over with an international
peacekeeping force?

--
Tom Sherman – Pissing Contest Hell