Quoted message said:Subject: Re: "lies" vs "errors" From: "Peter Moran"
[email hidden] Date: 5/16/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Standard
Time Message-id: <40a7f415$0$20567$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
"Henry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:Many posters here claim that Jan tells "lies", and google
offers hundreds
if
Quoted message said:not thousands of references offered as proofs of her
deceptions and falsehoods. Well, folks, I'm here to tell
you that she is not nearly the liar, cheat, deceiver that
you think she is, and this explanation applies equally to
many here - I use Jan as an example because... because...
well, she's just such a perfect example.
To be a "lie", the liar must know at the moment of
utterance that the statement is false. However, history
has shown us that when a liar repeats
a
Quoted message said:falsehood enough times, it becomes indistinguishable from
truth - to that liar. Eventually it becomes more of an
error than a lie, and is honestly offered to inform
rather than to deceive or mislead. Though factually
wrong,
Quoted message said:and with its origins in deception, it evolves into a
passionate statement
of
Quoted message said:[truth as I know it!]. So what would you call that
statement? It's no
longer
Quoted message said:a lie... but an error, an honest mistake.
I don't wish to exalt the liars here by comparing them to
famous prevaricators of history, but history teaches us
that many of them began with self-serving lies, then
eventually perfected and adopted their falsehoods as
[truth as I know it!]. During that process, their
statements became sincere, their arguments took on the
self-righteous fervor of the absolutely correct, their
rebuttals were perfected.... and their constituencies
voted for them. I suppose one example will help make this
point. There was a moment somewhere between 1923 and 1945
when Corporal Adolf [censored] began believing his own
rhetoric, and from that time on he
was
Quoted message said:perhaps the most persuasive and convincing
sociopath alive.
So, based on the above, here's an interesting question:
what percentage of intelligent and educated (naturopaths,
homeopaths, chiropractors, iridologists, yada yada)
actually *believes* the diagnostic and
therapeutic
Quoted message said:claptrap on which such quacks' incomes depend?
A most interesting question. I have often pondered it. The
problem is that it is not just quacks who can become misled
by by the crazy quilt of influences that can determine
perceived outcomes within day-to-day medical practice
(spontaneous events, answers of politeness, patient
subordination, true placebo effects, reversion to the mean,
observer biases etc ).
These are powerful enough to impress sincere and eminent
doctors. Three examples of this: glomectomy for asthma,
gastric freezing for duodenal ulcer and internal mammary
artery ligation for angina. These and many other
experimental mainstream procdures were claimed to have 80-
90 per cent success rates by enthusiatic pioneers, whereas
subsequent controlled trials showed that sham procedures
performed just as well. It took no less than eleven
controlled trials using sham procedures to dispose of all
the hype surrounding glomectomy. Chelation is I am sure a
similar case, where the promoters are convinced they are
seeing dramatic results, largely because of the erratic
behaviour and placebo responsiveness of the things they are
treating. The ability to overlook or find excuses for
failures, as in the recent Kadile chelation case, helps. .
So I am inclined to give most alt. practitioners the
benefit of the doubt. "Therapeutic illusions" are
prevalent and powerful. I am sure you are right that other
factors can be involved such as habituation. A tentative
belief can become entrenched if you are motivated to
emphasise all supportive evidence and blind yourself
anything that opposes.
The real liars/frauds are probably more strongly
represented within MLM schemes and spammers. There are some
alt cancer therapists who I think are quite deluded rather
than liars.
Peter Moran
This is proof of how Peter judges, and thinks.what's more
most if no all of the *gang* jumped in and lied for him.
msnbc.com809196.aspOpen ↗
Peter Moran wrote:
All medical advances have entailed risk, ever since the
first caveman said"I wonder what this berry does?".
Using retroviruses to try and correct lethal and potentially
lethal gene defects is a very legitimate and logic alavenue
of medical research. So this is nothing to do with
"conspiracies", "coverups" .
It is a matter of the quality of informed consent that was
applied. It would be unusual these days for such issues to
not be addressed carefully by the researchers and the ethics
committees to which all clinical trials are submitted
thesedays. We cannot know how culpable the doctors are from
this rather emotive news item.
Peter Moran
==============================
Years earlier, a scientist just a few miles away from the
Gelsinger’s home in Tucson had raised serious questions
about whether the experiment was safe.
Documents
• Feb. 8, 2002: FDA letter, attempt to ban Dr. Wilson
from other experiments. • March 3, 2000: FDA Warning
Letter, original findings about the gene therapy
experiment.
(SEE ANY COVER-UPS THERE, PETER??)
The trouble is, Paul Gelsinger says, Dr. Wilson’s team
had never told him that anyone had ever raised questions
about safety
(That's fine and dandy according to organized medicine
member, Peter Moran.)
AND PETER BOWDITCH!!
ADVERSE REACTIONS WERE NOT REPORTED And that was just the
beginning. Federal investigators, pouring through Penn’s
records, announced at the conference that they had made a
series of startling discoveries, raising questions about
whether the doctors had covered up problems and broken basic
test rules.
In fact, just a few months before Jesse had signed up for
the experiment, several monkeys given viruses similar to
Jesse’s got sick. And two of them died.
(SEE ANY COVER-UP THERE PETER??))
The rules for the experiment said: Even if volunteers
didn’t get visibly ill, if tests showed that any of them
had a significant reaction called “grade 3,†the
experiment was supposed to be “halted†immediately.
Records show there were “grade 3†reactions in more than
one patient. The first time, doctors stopped, called the
government and got permission to continue, saying an unusual
condition with the patient might have been the cause. The
second time, they stopped, called and got permission again,
citing another unusual condition. But when it happened a
third time, they didn’t stop, didn’t call. Then, a
fourth time. They didn’t stop or call then either
(FOUR TIMES PETER!!!!!)
For their own safety, volunteers weren’t supposed
to have a blood ammonia level higher than 50. But
people were coming in with higher levels and without
proper approval. The limit was raised to 70. When
Jesse signed up over the summer, he was within the
limits, but records show that when Penn doctors
tested him, just days before the experiment, his
reading was 114 — more than double the original
safety limit.
(That's way cool huh Peter???)
HIGH FINANCIAL STAKES With so many red flags from the monkey
deaths to the reactions in other volunteers, even to
Jesse’s own ammonia levels, Why had Dr. Wilson’s team
allowed the experiment to continue?
(Wonder if Peter can answer this question?)
At the University of Pennsylvania, the conflict
committee approved Dr. Wilson’s arrangement with
Genovo. In fact, the university itself owned a piece
of his company and stood to profit, too.
(Hmmmmmmmmm).
In a statement, the university acknowledged that some
information “should have been shared with the FDA
sooner.â€
(Just a minor little slip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
There was no information given to Jesse or his family about
the monkey deaths. There was no information given to Jesse
or his family about toxic results in prior patients. There
was no information that would allow Jesse and his family to
make any kind of informed decision.â€
(Peter STILL can't see any coverup!!!! NO dishonesty!)
CONFIDENTIAL REPORTS
He told congress that other private companies in the
race for cures had also been doing gene therapy
experiments and had also gotten adverse reactions.
But instead of sharing the information, government
rules allowed them to stamp those reactions
“confidential,†classifying them as trade secrets
to protect their research investments. So, while the
government knew about them, other researchers like
Dr. Wilson and volunteers like Jesse Gelsinger were
never allowed to see them.
(TRust the government!!!)
“I was outraged,†says Paul. “I had a right to know.
Jesse had a right to know.
(Oh my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,emotions).
***In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that
because Dr. Wilson filed “false and misleading†reports
and “repeatedly and deliberately violated regulations***
REPEAT FOR THE HARD HEADED!!!
Dr. Wilson filed “false and misleading†reports and
“repeatedly and deliberately violated regulations
(No coverups,,,,,,,,,,no fraud,,,,,,,,,,no deliberate
violations,,,,,,,,,,,,)
HOW DOES THAT GRAB YOU PETER BOWITCH?????
This week marks the third anniversary of Jesse
Gelsinger’s death. At the University of
Pennsylvania, Dr. Wilson
****is still on the faculty****
(Soooooooooo in organized medicine,,,,,,,,,,,)
****Filing *false and misleading reports* is A
OK,,,,,,,,,,,,****
****REPEATED and DELIBERATE
violations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is A OK.***
but no longer in charge of its gene therapy program. And, in
Congress, lawmakers are still debating legislation to
provide more protection for medical volunteers.
******in the end, whether Jesse was betrayed by the doctors
he and his family thought they could trust.*********
====
Nuff said.
Jan
