First Rucksac

"marc" <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

depends what they are carrying. Tent, cooking equipment, or just sleeping bag and clothing?

"marc" <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

One that's too small to fit in everything they *think* they'll need to take.

marc bashed at the keyboard and said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

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"marc" <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> wrote in
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Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

My last Rucksac, was an 85Litre job. It had an rigid frame, a main compartment, also compartments
for sleeping bag (at the bottom), two side pockets, top pocket (in lid). Also on top were straps for
a sleeping mat. There was a waist strap which bore, with quick release buckle, and a smaller strap
to stop the padded shoulder straps from slipping.

It wasn't a bad piece of kit, and served me well whilst in the Army Cadets. (As you can imagine, it
got abused regularly) However, it didn't have a long life span.

From the experience gained from it, I've got some suggestions. All pretty much common sense.

1. Material quality. Get something where the material looks strong, and will take alot of wear.
2. Workmanship. Every rucksac is different, even two of the same model. Take some time to inspect
the stitching, and make sure that there arn't any potential problems laying in wait. The chances
are that if it's going to split, it'll happen in wet weather, right out in the middle or nowhere,
when you need it most. Pay extra attention to the places where the main straps meet the body.
Also that the fastenings will be secure and not get ripped off by accident.
3. Get one that's big enough to carry all the stuff that you want to put in.
4. Check for water resistance. No point getting a canvas bag that'll soak up the rain and get
everything wet. Even though you should pack stuff in a bin liner to help keep it dry. The more
water resistant layering the less chance of stuff getting wet. If packed properly of course ;-)

Unfortunatly, I can't give any suggestions of a good make brand, as I'll be looking myself in the
not to distant future.

Colin.

marc <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> said...

Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

Something cheap! (I've got a teenage boy; I certainly wouldn't buy anything expensive...) If your
local supermarket sells rucksacks that's probably the best bet. Oh, and do get the parents to put
the lads' names on them - 20 identical rucksacks, all unmarked... no thanks!

--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

"marc" <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

The rough size guidelines I follow are: 30L (Daysack); 65L (Camping/Small Expedition); 85-100L+
(Expedition).

You'll find that a 30L sack will be unsuitable and incapable of carrying all the necessary gubbins,
especially camping equipment. In fact they'll struggle with anything less than 45L (a very tight
squeeze for a hike with camping).

With a 100L sack you'll find they'll brink the kitchen sink with them!

The size you're looking to recommend is the 65L (or roughly thereabouts 55-70L say, but you'll find
that 65L is a "standard" size).

This should be more than adequate to see a yp through most outdoor activities such as hiking and
camping they'll do in the Troop.

Most kids, certainly those 11/12, will disappear under a 100L sack! Be aware though some junior
Scouts may be slightly on the small side for a 65L and may be better suited to a 55L. (The key
fitting measure is from the nape of the neck to the small of the back - outside of this is too big.)

So 65L is the one to go for as that capacity is the most appropriate for the intended use. I take it
they'll be carrying camping gear - hike tent, cooking eqpt, etc? Best method is to pair-up the
Scouts and share "team" equipment between them, e.g. one takes the tent, the other takes cooking
stuff and food, etc.

Other basic requirements of the sack: made from waterproof fabric (closures as well as material) -
lightweight 600d polyester is okay though you'll still need a liner; sits comfortably with the load
held high and close to the back; well padded and well-attached (that's a key requirement) and easily
adjustable straps; a hip belt allows for weight distribution onto the hips; a reasonable number of
external pockets (so you can carry things such as fuel and food separately); a zip opening to the
lower sack is useful
(i.e. dividing internal compartments), double stitching and reinforced corners, an air mesh back is
nice for some, internal alloy frame is useful for yp; among others.

I've had some very good budget priced bags and I certainly wouldn't recommend that they spend out on
an expensive brand-name bag. How many times are they going to use it?

You can get a reasonably good bag of this sort for about £30.

How a sack is packed can make an amazing difference to the ease and comfort of carrying it, so don't
forget to give them a lesson on this and what to pack before you go!

Also don't forget to stress the importance of not carrying too much weight. The general guideline
IIRC for adults is one-third body weight, but for yp the absolute maxiimum is accepted to be 15kg
(33lbs? in "old money"😉. This is an absolute though; a good working maximum that I've always used is
11kg (25lbs). When I was leading a Troop we used to do a lot of these weekender hikes with o/n camp.
I invested in a spring balance just to check the weight - the heaviest one in my records was 17 kg
(38lbs): tent, food, spare clothing, f.a. kit........mars bars, more mars bars, 2L fizzy drink,
radio, spare batteries for radio.................!!

GAGS

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

depends what they are carrying. Tent, cooking equipment, or just sleeping bag and clothing?

3 man tent between 3 , sleeping mat, one Trangia and one gas stove between 3 clothes, food and
sleeping bag

marc said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

Not suggestions of what "brand" to look for - but

* Look at the waist strap - make sure it can be done up, cheaper rucksacs often have the strap
coming out of the end of the padding - and smaller Scouts may find that they can't tighten the
waist belt to be able to get the weight transfered to the hips

* If you are expecting them to carry tents/carry mats - look for equipment straps on the top of
the rucksac so they can carry tent or poles or carry mats on the top of the rucksac - rather
than at the bottom (it gets in the way)

- A 40-50 litre rucksac with top straps should be sufficient

* Look for decent amount of wide padding on the shoulders - as thin straps will cause problems.

* In some ways the straps - fixings and joints to the rucksac are the most important bit - if the
canvas gets a small tear its not a problem - if a fixing breaks or a strap comes off the Scout
will have serious problems...

Obviously if you have the money - I would recommend Karrimor as the best brand, followed by people
like Berghaus, MacPac, ...

Brands like Blacks own come in on the next rung ...

Euro Hike, etc next...

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

When I was leading a Troop we used to do a lot of these weekender hikes with o/n camp. I invested
in a spring balance just to check the weight - the heaviest one in my records was 17 kg (38lbs):
tent, food, spare clothing, f.a. kit........mars bars, more mars bars, 2L fizzy drink, radio,
spare batteries for radio.................!!

Good point! Note: Buy spring scales !

GAGS said:

When I was leading a Troop we used to do a lot of these weekender hikes with o/n camp. I invested
in a spring balance just to check the weight - the heaviest one in my records was 17 kg (38lbs):

Ha! I never used to travel that light. I typically carried 45 pounds or so.

Paul
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"AndyP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"marc" <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

One that's too small to fit in everything they *think* they'll need to

take.

Quoted message said:

LOL!

"James Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:N4Q_b.855$44.800@newsfe1-win...

Quoted message said:

marc wrote:

* Look at the waist strap - make sure it can be done up,

Don't need one for normal walking - that's only useful over very rough terrain, and then I don't
always use it, so don't discount a model if it hasn't got a waist belt.

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

GAGS said:

When I was leading a Troop we used to do a lot of these weekender hikes with o/n camp. I
invested in a spring balance just to check the weight - the heaviest one in my records was 17 kg
(38lbs):

Ha! I never used to travel that light. I typically carried 45 pounds or so.

You ARE joking, aren't you?

marc marccdimspamremovedimspamto said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

When I was leading a Troop we used to do a lot of these weekender hikes with o/n camp. I invested
in a spring balance just to check the weight - the heaviest one in my records was 17 kg (38lbs):
tent, food, spare clothing, f.a. kit........mars bars, more mars bars, 2L fizzy drink, radio,
spare batteries for radio.................!!

Quoted message said:

Good point! Note: Buy spring scales !

What's wrong with the bathroom scales many already have?
--
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IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Fran <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

marc <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> said...

Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

Something cheap! (I've got a teenage boy; I certainly wouldn't buy anything expensive...) If your
local supermarket sells rucksacks that's probably the best bet. Oh, and do get the parents to put
the lads' names on them - 20 identical rucksacks, all unmarked... no thanks!

Beware of cheap rucksacs. Okay, don't go buying expensive ones, but you need to make sure that the
padding on the shoulder straps is adequate.

I've seen what a cheap rucksac that was purchased in a supermarket did to the kid wearing it. It was
a hot weekend so the kid was wearing only a t-shirt. There was so little padding on the straps that
after only a few hours, her skin was red-raw and before the end of the day, I had to swap it for
mine - any more with hers and her skin would have been worn away and down to bone!

I know we don't know where Marc is taking his scouts, But when I was a VSL and on the district
activities team, we would have had reservations about the suitability of someone to lead a walk if
they had to ask somebody elses' advice about rucksacks ...

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

marc marccdimspamremovedimspamto said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

When I was leading a Troop we used to do a lot of these weekender hikes with o/n camp. I
invested in a spring balance just to check the weight - the heaviest one in my records was 17
kg (38lbs): tent, food,

spare

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

clothing, f.a. kit........mars bars, more mars bars, 2L fizzy drink,

radio,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

spare batteries for radio.................!!

Quoted message said:

Good point! Note: Buy spring scales !

What's wrong with the bathroom scales many already have?

Absolutely nothing!

I guess that many Scout Leaders probably use a set of bathroom scales to check the weight of bags
before a hiking competition (in which there is a bag weight limit). I certainly did before I got my
hands on a spring balance!

Of course it's not very accurate using bathroom scales. For a start it's impossible to weigh the bag
directly with any great accuracy as many are not big enough to position the bag centrally without
some support. Moreover, most bathroom scales (even accurately calibrated ones) only read to the
nearest 2lb/1kg. The usual trick is to weigh the Scout first, then the Scout plus bag, and take the
difference.

Perfectly okay if you're at least 2-4lb under the weight limit, however, not so good if you're close
to the limit.

Note I'm only talking about weighing bags on balances here when there is a need to do so, i.e. when
Scouts are entering a hiking competition in which there is a prescribed weight limit. (On other
occasions there's no need to be so accurate and a simple lift and estimate suffices.) If you turn up
to these events with an overweight bag then you either get heavily penalised or ultimately
disqualified. (And sometimes at large events with maybe 300/400+ teams to be processed in just a few
hours, losing your place due to an enforced bag check can often mean you miss your start-time as
well; even more penalities!) The first thing that marshals at these events do when coming across an
overweight bag is to send the kids to one side and ask them to either re-distribute some items (e.g.
a team of two with say bags of 27lb and 20lb, with a weight limit of 25lb each, can move some stuff
from one to the other and meet the limit) or to get rid of some items.

The former involves a delay of only a few minutes and of course no penalties, however, the latter is
more problematic. Many inexperienced Scouts stand and argue over what items to ditch. They also tend
to ditch items which they think are superfluous and don't refer to the list of penalities which
should guide them to ditching items in order from the least penalties up. I did actually see one
time a team decide to ditch their first aid kit in preference to a 1.5L bottle of coke. (Ditched
items are marked and retained by the weighing marshals to prevent them being added later.) That got
them under the weight limit, however, when they moved on to the next table - kit check - they were
deducted 200 points for not having an adequate first aid kit (there would have been no deduction for
losing the coke bottle!) and then instantly disqualified because they did not have what the marshals
considered was a necessary item of kit to let them go on the hike. Their Leader was..........with
them! On another occasion I saw a pair decide to ditch their tent, but luckily their Leader got to
them in time to prevent disqualification.

In my old Troop I had two pairs entering in senior section events (14-15.5 yo) that were "big lads"
(Adult size 13 trainers weighing nearly 1-1.5lb each - required for o/n basecamp). 25lb was quite a
challenging limit for these teams! Their packs were generally just a few ounces shy of the limit.
(On one occasion they were over and so the size 13 clodhoppers were ditched along with 50 points;
they missed out on a prize by 40 points!) Bathroom scales weren't accurate in this case, hence the
use of a spring balance.

Bathroom scales are perfectly okay to use where you're clearly under a competition weight limit or
when there's no competition and they're just a check on bag weights to ensure no one is
overburdened. Spring balances are handy and simple to use if you have one to hand and maybe only
necessary if you face tight competition limits like I used to face with my old Troop.

One final point, be careful using the bathroom scales technique when you have girls in the Troop
(generally the ones nearer 14 yo). Many are sensitive to being weighed, particularly by a male adult
leader! The use of a spring balance to directly weigh packs avoids any possible sensitivities.

GAGS

jacko said:

I know we don't know where Marc is taking his scouts, But when I was a VSL and on the district
activities team, we would have had reservations about the suitability of someone to lead a walk if
they had to ask somebody elses' advice about rucksacks ...

Did Marc "have to ask"? Or did he "choose to ask", to make sure his knowledge of the market was
current, and to check with his peers that he was up with current best practice? I'm sure that,
when you were on the district activities team, you would have regarded the latter as correct,
even laudable.

Of course, it could be said that he should have anticipated the question from parents and did
whatever updating he wanted to do *beforehand*.

--
John Russell CSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon pinhoescouts.org.ukcubsOpen ↗ Cubs don't care how
much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

"marc" <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We have just told the troop that they are going on a 11 mile hike with over night camp and that
they will all need a rucksac , straight afterwards parents started asking what would be a good
rucksac to buy. Suggestions?

I see you've got plenty of suggestions, but as an aside is it more difficult these days to do these
things? Are there not numerous regulations etc to work through. I enjoyed this kind of thing when I
was a boy with the scouts and cadets. My boy goes to scouts but it's all trendy now - no uniform,
which I think is a shame, though I'm not sure he'd go if he had to, teenagers are so image conscious
these days. Aren't girls allowed in the Scouts these days, which begs the question are boys allowed
in the Guides! :-)

KRO