vo2 max intervals.

MintID said:

I've been wondering...
in the trainingPeaks software it tells me that my Vo2max zone is 372-424watt based on a FTP of 351.
But when I'm doing 5x5min or 5x3 I'm able to hold 469watts. Which is defined as Anaerobic capacity in TrainingPeaks.
Should I aim for the zone set by TrainingPeaks as vo2max or should i go as hard as possible?

Thanks in advance.

Re-test your FTP benchmark. You're fitter than you think. When did you last test?

Impressive numbers, BTW.

MintID said:

But when I'm doing 5x5min or 5x3 I'm able to hold 469watts. Which is defined as Anaerobic capacity in TrainingPeaks.

Just to be sure I understand, during a set of 5-minute intervals you're averaging 469w during each of 5 reps with ~3-5 minutes rest in between intervals?

That's pretty stout, and if I'm reading you correctly then I agree with the post above that your FTP is dramatically understated. That interval workout alone is nearly an hour at nearly 350w, and that's including the rests. Surely you could push 400w during a steady effort if that's the case.

frenchyge said:

Just to be sure I understand, during a set of 5-minute intervals you're averaging 469w during each of 5 reps with ~3-5 minutes rest in between intervals?

That's pretty stout, and if I'm reading you correctly then I agree with the post above that your FTP is dramatically understated. That interval workout alone is nearly an hour at nearly 350w, and that's including the rests. Surely you could push 400w during a steady effort if that's the case.

Stout? What a beautifully understated way of describing the workload! 😄

grahamspringett said:

Re-test your FTP benchmark. You're fitter than you think. When did you last test?

Impressive numbers, BTW.

Me thinks this was all he was looking for with his post...

grahamspringett said:

Re-test your FTP benchmark. You're fitter than you think. When did you last test?

Impressive numbers, BTW.

last time I "tested" my FTP was 2 months ago at a 45minute TT avg. 354Watts. Maybe I'm not pushing hard enough, or maybe I'm just not able to keep focus.
I have to admit holding the 469 is very hard...
my 3x5 intervals looks a bit like this...
first interval 450watts
second interval ~ 470
third usually only 3 minutes and at 430 - 450 depending on how I'm feeling that day.

a month ago I didn't produce a 3 or 5 minute over 430watts, but then again, I don't know if I was pushing hard enough.

tonyzackery said:

Me thinks this was all he was looking for with his post...

I wasn't looking for a pad on the back at all... The 469 is my 5minute power not my FTP.

MintID said:

last time I "tested" my FTP was 2 months ago at a 45minute TT avg. 354Watts. Maybe I'm not pushing hard enough, or maybe I'm just not able to keep focus.
I have to admit holding the 469 is very hard...
my 3x5 intervals looks a bit like this...
first interval 450watts
second interval ~ 470
third usually only 3 minutes and at 430 - 450 depending on how I'm feeling that day.

a month ago I didn't produce a 3 or 5 minute over 430watts, but then again, I don't know if I was pushing hard enough.

I wasn't looking for a pad on the back at all... The 469 is my 5minute power not my FTP.

what do ya weigh?

Jono L said:

what do ya weigh?

i'm 192cm (about 6"3? ) and i weigh 78kg

Well, if power is dropping off on the third interval and the interval/workout gets cut short as a result then that indicates to me that you're going out too hard. My suggestion would be to lower the power to the L5 range that the software suggests and see if you can complete a set of 5-6 reps at that level.

If that's too easy then by all means raise the power target, but the target should be based on completing a full set within ~5-10% of that power for each rep. An FTP retest would probably help find the appropriate target for your other interval workouts.

frenchyge said:

Well, if power is dropping off on the third interval and the interval/workout gets cut short as a result then that indicates to me that you're going out too hard. My suggestion would be to lower the power to the L5 range that the software suggests and see if you can complete a set of 5-6 reps at that level.

If that's too easy then by all means raise the power target, but the target should be based on completing a full set within ~5-10% of that power for each rep. An FTP retest would probably help find the appropriate target for your other interval workouts.

Will Vo2Max always depend on FTP ? Isn't it possible to have a relatively low FTP but a high Vo2Max or vice verca.

MintID said:

Will Vo2Max always depend on FTP ? Isn't it possible to have a relatively low FTP but a high Vo2Max or vice verca.

They are strongly related, but there is some variance between individuals -- typically much less than the magnitude you're seeing.

What you've described above (2 strong intervals and then cutting the third short or seeing power drooping) sounds like a pretty typical case of pushing into your anaerobic capacity early on, and then falling off once it's been depleted and you're having to pay as you go on aerobic power alone.

Like I said above, if you're truly working at/near pVO2max you should be able to do at least 20-25 minutes of work within the course of a workout. If not, then you'd probably be better served by dropping the intensity slightly.

frenchyge said:

They are strongly related, but there is some variance between individuals -- typically much less than the magnitude you're seeing.

What you've described above (2 strong intervals and then cutting the third short or seeing power drooping) sounds like a pretty typical case of pushing into your anaerobic capacity early on, and then falling off once it's been depleted and you're having to pay as you go on aerobic power alone.

Like I said above, if you're truly working at/near pVO2max you should be able to do at least 20-25 minutes of work within the course of a workout. If not, then you'd probably be better served by dropping the intensity slightly.

thanks. I'll back off a bit...
I'll probably shoot for 440-450 for my next session. been reading a bit about Vo2max, it seems that it takes about 180 seconds before you even begin to train vo2max, so it may be better to go longer and easier?

MintID said:

thanks. I'll back off a bit...
I'll probably shoot for 440-450 for my next session. been reading a bit about Vo2max, it seems that it takes about 180 seconds before you even begin to train vo2max, so it may be better to go longer and easier?

Individual "zones" may differ, and should perhaps overlap in a continuum (like RST zones). You might be able to do 140% FT over 5 minutes and repeat it...then do so.

Do your 5x5 where you can complete each interval at target, for all intervals. Look at your power distribution chart afterwards, get 25 minutes in Zone 5 or better.

You are very strong in this zone, ever go to a track and do a pursuit?

Spunout said:

You are very strong in this zone, ever go to a track and do a pursuit?

Yep, my thoughts exactly. It would be also very interesting to hear well rested all out 1min power.

Spunout said:

Individual "zones" may differ, and should perhaps overlap in a continuum (like RST zones). You might be able to do 140% FT over 5 minutes and repeat it...then do so.

Do your 5x5 where you can complete each interval at target, for all intervals. Look at your power distribution chart afterwards, get 25 minutes in Zone 5 or better.

You are very strong in this zone, ever go to a track and do a pursuit?

If he's able to complete 5 x 5 min @ 140% FTP then I'd suggest concentrating on raising his FTP to a higher percentage of VO2max as that may be his weakness (or re-testing). OTOH, if he has an unusually high anaerobic capacity I'd suggest lengthening his VO2max intervals to 6-8 min each.

As the OP correctly states the VO2max state is only reached at around 180 fromt he start. So he has 2 options complete the 5*5' properly (not cutting them short as this indicates he's working on his AWC instead) or lengthening the intervals to max 8-10 min's but with a slightly lower power to complete 3 of them. The desired overall duration of a VO2Max interval should be 22-30 mins. And the average power per interval should not vary over more than 5-10% as already stated.

Being able to go harder is normal but more isn't better here. Getting it right is the issue. But that's what we have the PM's for, right? And the zone for VO2Max gives a range that usually covers all extremes, being the weak and the strong "pursuiters" alike. So it's 105 - 120% of ones FTP. Only if you're able to complete all the intervals (5*5 or 3*10) at the given range (or if you aren't) then you need to take another percentage. Because then you're either a talented pursuiter or the other way round a whimp as L5 workouts are both mentally and physically hard to complete 😉

Piotr said:

...I'd suggest concentrating on raising his FTP to a higher percentage of VO2max as that may be his weakness (or re-testing).....

If I could repeat 5x5s at 470 watts, I wouldn't worry about any other weakness just yet 😉

Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but are you sure that your power meter is giving accurate numbers?

If you have a Power Tap, have you checked for zeroed out the torque? Have you ever done a stomp test? If you have an SRM, has it been calibrated?

Here's another test: on flat ground (or as close as you can get), what is your time and average speed for 5 minutes or 20 minutes (or something in that range)?

Steve_B said:

Here's another test: on flat ground (or as close as you can get), what is your time and average speed for 5 minutes or 20 minutes (or something in that range)?

ehy, my time for that kind of test is, in order, exactly 5 and 20 minutes 😄

Steve_B said:

Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but are you sure that your power meter is giving accurate numbers?

If you have a Power Tap, have you checked for zeroed out the torque? Have you ever done a stomp test? If you have an SRM, has it been calibrated?

Here's another test: on flat ground (or as close as you can get), what is your time and average speed for 5 minutes or 20 minutes (or something in that range)?

I have a SRM PRO FSA. I zero it everytime i start, and I know it's accurate (been comparing it to other riders).
I will do a FTP test tomorrow, even though I don't feel completely rested.