vo2 max intervals.

robkit said:

i was wondering what is the best way to estimate VO2 max power, besides doing a VO2 max test on an ergometer. i'm thinking when the motivation is not for determination of a smart interval workload but rather to come up with the best estimate for comparing oneself against the power profile (5 min power.)

You might try doing a simulated pursuit, in which you "burn off" all of your anaerobic capacity during the first 1.5-2.5 min, then continue "pay as you go" style for the remainder of the time/distance. Getting the pacing just right may take a bit of practice, but the quasi-plateau power will be very close to that requiring 100% of VO2max.

(See Alex's blog for entries on "MAOD" for more detail.)

acoggan said:

(See Alex's blog for entries on "MAOD" for more detail.)

That would be the Darth Vader entry ...
🙂
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/02/darth-vader-rides-teams-pursuit.html

Alex Simmons said:

That would be the Darth Vader entry ...
🙂
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/02/darth-vader-rides-teams-pursuit.html

thanks for the pointer. i had a look at the blog but the link to the excel file seems to be broken?

frenchyge said:

2) You could start a poll, but I'd be surprised if almost everyone here were able to regularly do sets of at least 4min intervals above 115% FTP, assuming at least 5 intervals in the set and a work:rest ratio of 1:1 or higher. I feel really satisfied if I can hold >115% on the last reps of a 6x4 set.

I do 6-8x5min @ 115-120% of FTP and I know that my FTP is not undersetimated

Dave

robkit said:

thanks for the pointer. i had a look at the blog but the link to the excel file seems to be broken?

Hmmm, at first I thought it might be because you need a google sign on to view Wattage forum but then I see Andy has cleaned out his files from the Wattage forum files page, so if you are interested, suggest asking Andy direct about the file.

I did an L5 training yesterday and tried to follow the advice given here with interval to rest period being 1:1. Man, that was hard! :eek: Are you guys serious that this is correct? Up to now I alway did a ratio of 1:2 or 1:2.5. Although that wasn't easy it was more "comfortable" 🙄 . I did the intervals with 5*5mins and 110% btw. I kept the wattage in a normal range (with growing mental determination) but my HR was not going into the predicted range anymore. My threshold HR is 167 and according to Andys model my HR for L% should be >175. it was "only" max 172 for the first interval and for the 5th it was only max 167.

Two questions I have:
1) What's the reasoning behind the advice of 1:1 ratios? 😕
2) is HR at all an iondicator or shall I forget about HR in L% intervals?

bigwillie013 said:

1) What's the reasoning behind the advice of 1:1 ratios? 😕

Limited recovery forces the intervals to be more aerobic than if you simply recovered fully between the intervals. This is because the longer recoveries gives your body time to replenish (to some degree) its anaerobic capacity. If you go hard again before your body has fully recovered, the energy used will have to come more from aerobic sources rather than anaerobic sources.

bigwillie013 said:

2) is HR at all an iondicator or shall I forget about HR in L% intervals?

The time lag is too large to give any meaningful information with shorter intervals. You might get something useful from 4/5-minute intervals but if you try to pace yourself based upon HR, you will end up very much over cooking the effort level. Bottom line, I would say forget about HR.

Hi BW

bigwillie013 said:

I did an L5 training yesterday and tried to follow the advice given here with interval to rest period being 1:1. Man, that was hard! :eek: Are you guys serious that this is correct? Up to now I alway did a ratio of 1:2 or 1:2.5. Although that wasn't easy it was more "comfortable" 🙄 . I did the intervals with 5*5mins and 110% btw. I kept the wattage in a normal range (with growing mental determination) but my HR was not going into the predicted range anymore. My threshold HR is 167 and according to Andys model my HR for L% should be >175. it was "only" max 172 for the first interval and for the 5th it was only max 167.

Two questions I have:
1) What's the reasoning behind the advice of 1:1 ratios? 😕
2) is HR at all an iondicator or shall I forget about HR in L% intervals?

Great fun aren't they, just so that you know your weren't alone this morning I thought I'd let you know that I was doing the same thing, crazy isn't it. If you would like to see what happens to my HR during the efforts (fixed wattage) and see how it steadily creeps up with each effort click here.

I'm doing 4x4s @ 115% of my FTP (340W, FTP 296W) and I just seem to be able to get to the end with a real struggle. I'd previously done this sort of training at 320W but don't think I was working hard enough to make a real difference. I, like you, have read the wisdon here, hence the current torture arrangements! I'll be waiting to see if I get any improvements, I'm going to give it 3 months doing them at least twice a week and will see what happens.

Not sure of the answer to your first question but I reckon Steve_B has it taped, with time you do recover to an acceptable level after 4-5 minutes after an effort of the same length, just takes time. I would completely ignore HR for L5 training, just get the power/load right and bash on and ignore it. I've come to the conclusion that comfort doesn't really come into it!

My advice re setting your load it to ride a 5 min TT and produce the maximum (without killing yourself) average wattage you can. Then, to start with, do 4 minute efforts at that power. You are then working at the right intensity but for a slightly shorter period which is within your capabilities and you can build on it as you adapt, that's what I'm doing anyway. VO2 max intervals do not need to be done to exhaustion to deliver benefits, that's my understanding.

Cheers,

PBUK

bigwillie013 said:

I did an L5 training yesterday and tried to follow the advice given here with interval to rest period being 1:1. Man, that was hard! :eek: Are you guys serious that this is correct? Up to now I alway did a ratio of 1:2 or 1:2.5. Although that wasn't easy it was more "comfortable" 🙄 . I did the intervals with 5*5mins and 110% btw. I kept the wattage in a normal range (with growing mental determination) but my HR was not going into the predicted range anymore. My threshold HR is 167 and according to Andys model my HR for L% should be >175. it was "only" max 172 for the first interval and for the 5th it was only max 167.

Two questions I have:
1) What's the reasoning behind the advice of 1:1 ratios? 😕
2) is HR at all an iondicator or shall I forget about HR in L% intervals?

If you need more than a 1:1 ratio for Z5 intervals it may mean you have gone out to hard especially during the 1st interval or simply overestimated your Z5 power range. This is important especially during the longer Z5 intervals (5-7)mins where you want to be progressing to 20mins plus overall work.

bigwillie013 said:

1) What's the reasoning behind the advice of 1:1 ratios? 😕

You'll find reference to significantly shorter work:rest ratios in the archives. About all you really need for recovery is ~2.5 min's (something about the half-life of something or the other). I typically do 5 min L5's (at ~115%+ FTP) with ~3 min's rest (easier for me to keep track than 2.5 min's rest).

bigwillie013 said:

2) is HR at all an iondicator or shall I forget about HR in L% intervals?

As others have said, forget about it. Just go by power for L5 & shorter intervals.

Dave

one more thing to consider is that you haven't recovered from the training camp and therefore hr doesn't act "as it should" (even HR doesn't matter,I think it should go up close to your max after couple of first intervals).

What is your TSB?

Alex Simmons said:

NP for a planned workout will give you a good idea as to whether the workout is feasible or not.

it also helps weed out some potential b/s - like the one about doing L5 workouts of 5x5'@140% FTP on with 1:1 w/r ratio.

When I plug that into an NP calculator (assuming 50% FTP on the rest intervals), I get an IF of 1.17 x 50-min.

I have to politely call b/s on that one :p ...

frost said:

one more thing to consider is that you haven't recovered from the training camp and therefore hr doesn't act "as it should" (even HR doesn't matter,I think it should go up close to your max after couple of first intervals).

What is your TSB?

My current TSB (as of yesterday after the intervals) is 0.1. 🙂 and I have thought by myself that the camp still might influence my legs too.
But even in previous efforts of L5 I never even came close to my HRmax being 186. HRmax in all L5 intervals was at 174 :eek: (I did only 4 L5 exercises up to now - including the one yesterday). HRmax per set alway declined. It's like I'm totally different from the rest who always say that over time the HR increases with the same workload. With me it looks like HR decreases over time in hard intervals. It's the same with L6 intervals (never tried L7 yet). Over normal L2/L3 rides HR does increase slightly towards the end with a given wattage, though.😎

Porkyboy said:

Hi BW

Great fun aren't they, just so that you know your weren't alone this morning I thought I'd let you know that I was doing the same thing, crazy isn't it. If you would like to see what happens to my HR during the efforts (fixed wattage) and see how it steadily creeps up with each effort click here.
Cheers,

PBUK

The file looks great.😉 I assume you did the workout on a roller? I haven't been on mine for 4 months now. Weather always allowed me to do my scheduled workouts outdoors. What I recall though is that while on the roller (Tacx I-Magic) it seemed "easier" and my HR went up per set of intervals which it doesn't outdoors. Does this tell me something?..... Maybe someone wiser than me? 😕
Maybe one more hint: I'm doing my L5 always on hills - I have two hills back to back with a small flat between them, so I go uphill on the interval, turn and come down when finished then cycle along to the other hill (within a total of 5 mins) and then hammer it again.😄

Somebody asked for my 1 MP.
I tried today. wasn't feeling too good plus I have to do them seated due to my broken elbow. so I'll def. try again soon.
Avg. 693 for 1 minute, my guess is my NP is the same. Haven't loaded the data yet.

Hi

bigwillie013 said:

The file looks great.😉 I assume you did the workout on a roller? I haven't been on mine for 4 months now. Weather always allowed me to do my scheduled workouts outdoors. What I recall though is that while on the roller (Tacx I-Magic) it seemed "easier" and my HR went up per set of intervals which it doesn't outdoors. Does this tell me something?..... Maybe someone wiser than me? 😕
Maybe one more hint: I'm doing my L5 always on hills - I have two hills back to back with a small flat between them, so I go uphill on the interval, turn and come down when finished then cycle along to the other hill (within a total of 5 mins) and then hammer it again.😄

I'm doing my L5 work on a CompuTrainer. I pre-programme a .erg file which sets all the wattages at the right times so when say my 340W effort starts the loads goes automatically from 175W to 340W over about 7-10 seconds (bit of a shock) and then it keeps the load at 340W no matter how fast or slow I pedal as it's running in ergo mode, the slower I pedal the higher the torque. Doing it this way I cannot ease off at all during the effort, if I do I just grind to a halt, session over, quite an incentive to keep going!

You sure when outdoors that you are riding at steady power for the whole of the effort? Must admit I find I can control these things and concentrate better on a turbo than outdoors, very easy outdoors to slack off and recover a bit without really realising it and this would explain your HR observations. Worth posting a power file of one of your sessions to help people be clear about things?

These sessions sure don't feel easier on a CompuTrainer 🙁

Cheers,

PBUK

MintID said:

Somebody asked for my 1 MP.
I tried today. wasn't feeling too good plus I have to do them seated due to my broken elbow. so I'll def. try again soon.
Avg. 693 for 1 minute, my guess is my NP is the same. Haven't loaded the data yet.

NP for that short effort is insignificant. Sounds much less than I expected. Monod estimates with 470w 5MMP/388 18MMP whopping 924w for 1 min but as said it is not accurate in very short and very long efforts.

Still, I am not even near your 5MMP with FTP a bit lower (which would indicate that you either have higher AWC or even less developed FTP) and I can put out >800W (though out of the saddle into mild uphill, which probably increases it quite a bit)

frost said:

NP for that short effort is insignificant. Sounds much less than I expected. Monod estimates with 470w 5MMP/388 18MMP whopping 924w for 1 min but as said it is not accurate in very short and very long efforts.

Still, I am not even near your 5MMP with FTP a bit lower (which would indicate that you either have higher AWC or even less developed FTP) and I can put out >800W (though out of the saddle into mild uphill, which probably increases it quite a bit)

As I said, I'm not feeling to good at the moment.
I'm feeling a bit sick and probably should have skipped todays training. I will try to do a 1MP again once my arm heals.
I don't think I can manage 930w though.
You still think my FTP is underestimated compared to my 5min?
As said I averaged 392 for 18minutes, then I had a spill.

Alex Simmons said:

Hmmm, at first I thought it might be because you need a google sign on to view Wattage forum but then I see Andy has cleaned out his files from the Wattage forum files page, so if you are interested, suggest asking Andy direct about the file.

yikes i dont have the option to PM mr coggan, would anyone be kind enough to send me a copy they might have to rob AT k1tch DOT com , i would really like to see this spreadsheet: "analysis of individual and team pursuit.xls"

Mmh, I guess that 6x4' intervals do their damn job 🙂. Today I set my 5MAP at 4,74 W/kg, and this makes me really happy because, looking at this table, it could potentially yield to a 20MAP greater than 4 W/Kg, that is my target wattage for starting racing in granfondos 😄

The strangest thing to me is that 5" MAP is almost on the same line as the 5MAP and 20MAP (that is, actually, a little lower) while 1MAP is greatly down that level.. what could be the issue? Am I a little too OT?