vo2 max intervals.

Simone@Italy said:

...The strangest thing to me is that 5" MAP is almost on the same line as the 5MAP and 20MAP (that is, actually, a little lower) while 1MAP is greatly down that level.. what could be the issue? Am I a little too OT?

Yeah a bit OT, but it's really common for folks to rank low on the 1 minute MMP column of the power profile charts. Have you actually gone out and tried to hit your best possible 1 minute effort on a well rested day? Most folks don't 'cause it aint much fun. It's pretty typical to feel like losing your breakfast after a full out maximal 1 minute effort and it's pretty unusual for folks to hit during longer rides and even races. If you hit your max one minute in most races (with the exception of a kilo on the track) you'll probably get dropped in the next minute as you attempt to recover.

Don't forget the power profiles are also pinned at the top by specialists for those durations. So the top of the 1 minute column really represents world class kilo riders and many very strong roadies won't end up very high in that column.

-Dave

Tried the 4min on / 2min off intervals today for 4 sets (will go to 5 sets in a week or so). My wattage was steady, but out of curiousity I checked my hr at the end of each effort: 162, 165, 168, 170 (Max 195). I know I should just be focusing on just the wattage and I am, but should I be at all concerned with the HR numbers? Are they telling me anything? Unfit and going to blow in another set or 2? Or probably right on for the effort? Thanks.

Meek One said:

...but should I be at all concerned with the HR numbers? Are they telling me anything? ....

No, and no.

You don't need the numbers to tell you when you're finished with a set of intervals and it's not surprising the numbers crept up during the session, especially with your 2:1 work to rest ratio. Sure if you do the same set at the same power in a few months and your HR is much lower you might conclude that you've gotten fitter and you need to bump your power up for the subsequent session, but again you won't need the HR numbers to tell you that.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

No, and no.

You don't need the numbers to tell you when you're finished with a set of intervals and it's not surprising the numbers crept up during the session, especially with your 2:1 work to rest ratio. Sure if you do the same set at the same power in a few months and your HR is much lower you might conclude that you've gotten fitter and you need to bump your power up for the subsequent session, but again you won't need the HR numbers to tell you that.

-Dave

What I thought. Thanks Dave.

Hi

Meek One said:

Tried the 4min on / 2min off intervals today for 4 sets (will go to 5 sets in a week or so). My wattage was steady, but out of curiousity I checked my hr at the end of each effort: 162, 165, 168, 170 (Max 195). I know I should just be focusing on just the wattage and I am, but should I be at all concerned with the HR numbers? Are they telling me anything? Unfit and going to blow in another set or 2? Or probably right on for the effort? Thanks.

My only query is whether you have got the intensity right and the effort:recovery ratio right. I ask because on the last interval of a VO2 max interval session I would have thought your HR would be quite a bit closer to it's maximum. I just wonder whether your legs have gone way before the end and can't do the work to raise your HR higher. I'd have expected you to have been much closer to your MHR by the end of the session than 25BPM below it. My MHR is about 187 and if I was 25BPM below that my power output would put me at about SST/threshold level rather than VO2 max.

Problem is we are all so different! 😄

Cheers,

PBUK

speaking about HR again re my next L5 session. This time I also concentrated on not going too low on W for the recovery as this is rightly spotted from pbuk on descents. AVG W were 337, 329, 319 and 326 (6mins for the 1st and 5 mins for the other 3), recovery 5min each at avg 171, 171 and 166W.

HR btw looks a bit better but still for the last interval considerable lower instead of higher HR (1st interval HRmax 170, 2nd 171, 3rd 169 and last interval HRmax 167). HRmax for 2007 was 186 and for 2008 until now 178.
Can someone tell me how to best create attachable files from WKO+?

Porkyboy said:

Hi

My only query is whether you have got the intensity right and the effort:recovery ratio right. I ask because on the last interval of a VO2 max interval session I would have thought your HR would be quite a bit closer to it's maximum.
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Problem is we are all so different! 😄

One question is of course (to Meek One) that how did you end up your MHR? Calculation or test and if test when and was it with a bicycle?

Even though I agree that HR doesn't matter, if it is that much below Max then it could be indicative that there's still something in the reserve.

frost said:

One question is of course (to Meek One) that how did you end up your MHR? Calculation or test and if test when and was it with a bicycle?

Even though I agree that HR doesn't matter, if it is that much below Max then it could be indicative that there's still something in the reserve.

I hope you're not right with that one. If there'd still be something in the reserve I'm dead! :eek: I'm breathing like I'll fall off the bike any second. If it was the case I can't push myself enough, oh dear...what a whimp I am 🙁

HRmax was based on finish line HRmax at races. And this year it was only 178 (in May).:o

bigwillie013 said:

I hope you're not right with that one. If there'd still be something in the reserve I'm dead! :eek: I'm breathing like I'll fall off the bike any second. If it was the case I can't push myself enough, oh dear...what a whimp I am 🙁

[img]cyclingforums.comtongue.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Well I was more referring to the poster who has 25 beats between MHR and 5th interval max, it sounds like a big gap but as Porky said we're all different.

frost said:

referring to the poster who has 25 beats between MHR and 5th interval max, it sounds like a big gap but as Porky said we're all different.

It sounds like a big gap because it is. If the MHR number is correct I doubt being 25 beats off max means that maximal cardiac output is being achieved, or even close.

Hi

bigwillie013 said:

I hope you're not right with that one. If there'd still be something in the reserve I'm dead! :eek: I'm breathing like I'll fall off the bike any second. If it was the case I can't push myself enough, oh dear...what a whimp I am 🙁

If that's the case, and as you say it is it must be, and if you have nothing in reserve and your HR is miles below your HRMax your legs are your limiting factor. They are either too weak (untrained) , too tired, or have gotten too anaerobic too quickly (likely and common) to allow you to continue to work hard enough aerobically to raise your HR further and reach a higher % of your available cardiac output.

My gut feeling, again, is that you may have not got your intensities right to effectively, consistently, and repeatably target your VO2 max, which is I think what your are trying to achieve. I'd go back to the drawing board and rework your training zones from recent, controlled, and reliable tests and relaunch :eek:

But then, I like relaunches 😉

Cheers,

PBUK

Hi BW

bigwillie013 said:

Can someone tell me how to best create attachable files from WKO+?

With the exercise open in WKO+ go to "file" - "export copy as", and save as a WKO file.

PBUK

bigwillie013 said:

I hope you're not right with that one. If there'd still be something in the reserve I'm dead! :eek: I'm breathing like I'll fall off the bike any second. If it was the case I can't push myself enough, oh dear...what a whimp I am 🙁

HRmax was based on finish line HRmax at races. And this year it was only 178 (in May).:o

For the same wattage and perceived exertion, high HR = fresh, low HR = tired. And there are all those in-betweens. Trust your PE more than your HR. Since your PE seems to be high I would venture to say that you might be fatigued and may need an easy week or two. How's your resting HR upon waking? If it's higher by a few BPM than your normal RHR then again you may need some rest.

Porkyboy said:

Hi

My only query is whether you have got the intensity right and the effort:recovery ratio right. I ask because on the last interval of a VO2 max interval session I would have thought your HR would be quite a bit closer to it's maximum. I just wonder whether your legs have gone way before the end and can't do the work to raise your HR higher. I'd have expected you to have been much closer to your MHR by the end of the session than 25BPM below it. My MHR is about 187 and if I was 25BPM below that my power output would put me at about SST/threshold level rather than VO2 max.

Problem is we are all so different! 😄

Cheers,

PBUK

I feel that my legs right now are limiting me. I've noticed similarly low HRs relative to max in my L3 and L4 sessions as well. FWIW my max HR was achieved on the bike about...wow... two years ago (seems like yesterday), I know I have seen 190-192 this year though...

If my legs are the limiting factor, what should I do to remedy this?

I know when I am riding well it seems that my heart/lungs and legs are at parity, now it seems my hrt/lungs are stronger than the old legs... 🙁

Hi M-O

Meek One said:

I feel that my legs right now are limiting me. I've noticed similarly low HRs relative to max in my L3 and L4 sessions as well. FWIW my max HR was achieved on the bike about...wow... two years ago (seems like yesterday), I know I have seen 190-192 this year though...

If my legs are the limiting factor, what should I do to remedy this?

I know when I am riding well it seems that my heart/lungs and legs are at parity, now it seems my hrt/lungs are stronger than the old legs... 🙁

I have no idea of your training history or objectives which makes this difficult/impossible!

With no other information available if someone came to me and said they were trying to do L5 intervals and their legs were holding them back I'd first of all be trying to establish whether they were overtrained and also what their reason for targetting their VO2 max with L5 work was.

If they were not overtrained I'd then want to establish whether they had a very good base of L3/SST/L4 work under their belts and in their legs, if they had fine, if they hadn't I'd start there.

If there was no evidence of overtraining, if there was a good base of L3/SST/L4 work, and if there was a good reason to be doing L5 work I'd do the following:

1. Have 48 hours rest, a high carbohydrate diet, a proper hydration strategy, and plenty of sleep.
   
2. After warming up well for about 20 minutes ride 2x5 minute TTs on a turbo with a 5 minute recovery period between them, producing the best average power for each TT, save the data.
   
3. Establish the average power for the 2nd TT and use this as the target power for future L5 intervals, initially these L5 intervals would be done for 4 minutes and I would suggest starting with 4x4 minute intervals.
   

So, that's what I would suggest as a way of starting L5 work BUT my gut feeling from what you have said is that you may well need to do a good solid block of L3/SST/L4 work first, I just don't know. You may also need more rest or even be CHO deficient or dehydrated.

Oh yes, and I'm no expert so treat my advice with caution and take it with plenty of salt!

PBUK

Porkyboy said:

Hi M-O

I have no idea of your training history or objectives which makes this difficult/impossible!

With no other information available if someone came to me and said they were trying to do L5 intervals and their legs were holding them back I'd first of all be trying to establish whether they were overtrained and also what their reason for targetting their VO2 max with L5 work was.

If they were not overtrained I'd then want to establish whether they had a very good base of L3/SST/L4 work under their belts and in their legs, if they had fine, if they hadn't I'd start there.

If there was no evidence of overtraining, if there was a good base of L3/SST/L4 work, and if there was a good reason to be doing L5 work I'd do the following:

1. Have 48 hours rest, a high carbohydrate diet, a proper hydration strategy, and plenty of sleep.
   
2. After warming up well for about 20 minutes ride 2x5 minute TTs on a turbo with a 5 minute recovery period between them, producing the best average power for each TT, save the data.
   
3. Establish the average power for the 2nd TT and use this as the target power for future L5 intervals, initially these L5 intervals would be done for 4 minutes and I would suggest starting with 4x4 minute intervals.
   

So, that's what I would suggest as a way of starting L5 work BUT my gut feeling from what you have said is that you may well need to do a good solid block of L3/SST/L4 work first, I just don't know. You may also need more rest or even be CHO deficient or dehydrated.

Oh yes, and I'm no expert so treat my advice with caution and take it with plenty of salt!

PBUK

Thanks. Been playing with my diet lately 🙄 . Got any proven numbers for pro/carb/fat per kg? I thought I just needed to

Meek One said:

...I know when I am riding well it seems that my heart/lungs and legs are at parity, now it seems my hrt/lungs are stronger than the old legs... 🙁

I guess we'll be beating this dead horse well into the next century, but it's highly unlikely that either your heart or your lungs are limiting your performance in any way. Heart stroke volume increases are one of the fastest and earliest adaptations to endurance training and if you've been riding with any regularity (gotta guess you have been if you're doing L5 intervals) then that particular adaptation has long since happened. And short of some serious respritory issues it's very unlikely that your lungs are a limiter.

The limiter is almost always in the working muscles themselves (your legs) and in the O2 transport (hence the incentive to blood dope) but not your lungs or your heart.

Don't start messing with your L5 efforts because your HR did or didn't match up to some preconceived expectation or someone else's experience. Do your L5 efforts on steady power or lacking a PM do them based on steady efforts for 3 to 5 minutes each. It doesn't matter whether your HR hits a certain level, what matters is how much O2 you exchange, how far you push your muscles into oxidative stress and how close you toe the line to purely anaerobic metabolism while still stressing the high end of your aerobic energy systems. You've gotta walk that fine line, really close to blowing and you've gotta hold the effort for at leat 3 minutes at that level to push your muscles to adapt.

The discussion entropy in these forums is fascinating. Everyone can agree, sure HR doesn't matter. Then someone says "gee your HR didn't behave like mine" and next thing ya know you're looking to alter your workouts to get a certain HR response. Work these intervals on power if you can and simply on steady hard efforts for the duration if you don't have a PM. Make sure you're breathing absolutely maximally for the last minute or two of each effort (you're trying to stress VO2 Max after all). They won't start with maximal breathing but you should reach that point after a minute and a half to two and a half minutes and that's one of the best indications that you're stressing the right processes and encouraging increased mitochondrial and capillary densities.

Good luck,
-Dave

Meek One said:

I know when I am riding well it seems that my heart/lungs and legs are at parity, now it seems my hrt/lungs are stronger than the old legs... 🙁

If you wish for your hrt/lungs to have a harder time of things, then you can accomplish this by riding on a trainer inside a sauna or steam room at a very high cadence. Suddenly your legs will feel like a million bucks compared to your chest. :p

Disclaimer: The above was for entertainment purposes only. DO NOT actually do this. It's not healthy and doesn't accomplish anything useful. 😎

Hmm..

Meek One said:

Thanks. Been playing with my diet lately 🙄 . Got any proven numbers for pro/carb/fat per kg? I thought I just needed to

Methinks you probably already knew that your weren't eating right to train optimally?

Recommened CHO intake for daily recovery, moderate duration/low intensity training 5-7g/kg/day. 7-12 for moderate to heavy training.

Recommendation from the IOC consensus on sports nutrition. Remember that a high percentage of athletes in training are chronically energy deficient. Sad, but true.

PBUK

daveryanwyoming said:

I guess we'll be beating this dead horse well into the next century, but it's highly unlikely that either your heart or your lungs are limiting your performance in any way. Heart stroke volume increases are one of the fastest and earliest adaptations to endurance training and if you've been riding with any regularity (gotta guess you have been if you're doing L5 intervals) then that particular adaptation has long since happened. And short of some serious respritory issues it's very unlikely that your lungs are a limiter.

The limiter is almost always in the working muscles themselves (your legs) and in the O2 transport (hence the incentive to blood dope) but not your lungs or your heart.

Dave I like 'most all of what you say all the time so sorry to quibble, but the heart is intimately connected with O2 transport. Peak cardiac output is a strong determinant of VO2max, which puts a ceiling on aerobic workload. (I'm sure you already know this... but it isn't evident from your phrasing).

More subtle:
(i) Early adaptation of a parameter (eg cardiac output) does not mean that parameter is not a limiter to exercise capacity.
(ii) Early adaptation is not the same as maximisation.