650Beware?

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:51:55 -0500, [email hidden] (Michael

Baldwin) said:

many of today's
pick-up trucks and cars are available with 3 rim/wheel sizes...Triple
YIKES! ...and then enter the lowly 650B...WOW!

Ah... the difference being that there are significant advantages to
some changes in auto/truck wheel sizes with corresponding adjustments
to tire profiles depending on the application.

It's also worth noting that people who run at the extremes suffer from
a significantly smaller number of choices. Most of these people are
making changes for appearance, although a small minority are into
serious performance sports.

Now, explain to me what 650B does to improve my bicycle performance.

still just me said:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:51:55 -0500, [email hidden] (Michael

Baldwin) said:

many of today's
pick-up trucks and cars are available with 3 rim/wheel sizes...Triple
YIKES! ...and then enter the lowly 650B...WOW!

Ah... the difference being that there are significant advantages to
some changes in auto/truck wheel sizes with corresponding adjustments
to tire profiles depending on the application.

It's also worth noting that people who run at the extremes suffer from
a significantly smaller number of choices. Most of these people are
making changes for appearance, although a small minority are into
serious performance sports.

Now, explain to me what 650B does to improve my bicycle performance.

In ~98% of cases, nada/zip/zilch/zero. With potentially serious
downsides.

OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

still just me said:

It's also worth noting that people who run at the extremes suffer from
a significantly smaller number of choices. Most of these people are
making changes for appearance, although a small minority are into
serious performance sports.

Now, explain to me what 650B does to improve my bicycle performance.

Probably nothing. But it may increase your enjoyment, which may or may
not be a consideration for you.
Phil Brown

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
profitable!

IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
Bombadil - a 650B mtb!

What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
block to be "put to sleep" next.

bfd said:

On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <[email hidden]> wrote:
OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
profitable!

IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
Bombadil - a 650B mtb!

What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
block to be "put to sleep" next.

The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.

And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.

"Hank Wirtz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

bfd said:

On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <[email hidden]> wrote:
OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
profitable!

IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
Bombadil - a 650B mtb!

What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
block to be "put to sleep" next.

The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.

And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.

Yes, the AHH is a 700c bike, but its only comes in large sizes like 57 or
58cm. If you need something smaller, then Riv prefers you get on a 650B
bike. I can see Grant making the Atlantis a 650B bike, why not! That way
he only has to stock 650B tires and rims. Simplifying inventory always seems
to work....

bfd said:

"Hank Wirtz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

bfd said:

On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <[email hidden]> wrote:
> OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
profitable!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
Bombadil - a 650B mtb!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
block to be "put to sleep" next.

Quoted message said:

The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.

Quoted message said:

And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.

Yes, the AHH is a 700c bike, but its only comes in large sizes like 57 or
58cm.

You say that as if that disqualifies its existence...

Quoted message said:

If you need something smaller, then Riv prefers you get on a 650B
bike. I can see Grant making the Atlantis a 650B bike, why not!

Because it's their "Expedition-level" touring bike. tire and rim
availability is an issue for tourists, and ONLY offering 650B would be
seriously dumb. There are people in the Surly LHT owners group who
argue that 700c has too little availability to be good for loaded
touring. They argue that since you can get 559 tires at Wal-Mart and
in Timbuktu, that's the size you want.

Quoted message said:

That way
he only has to stock 650B tires and rims. Simplifying inventory always seems
to work....

And that's your argument for INTRODUCING an arcane size? Do you
actually believe what you're saying?

In article
<[email hidden]
egroups.com>,

Hank Wirtz said:

bfd said:

On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <[email hidden]> wrote:
OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
profitable!

IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
Bombadil - a 650B mtb!

What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
block to be "put to sleep" next.

The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.

And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.

No 622 wheels on AHH smaller than 57 cm seat tube.

"it is impossible to properly design a 700C wheel bike
with these clearances (for fat tires and fenders) below about 57cm."

Here endeth the first lesson.

NB: A 54 cm Raleigh International with 630 wheels, 32 mm tires,
and room for mud guards does not falsify the lesson.

--
Michael Press

bfd said:

On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <[email hidden]> wrote:
OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
profitable!

Yep, "niche marketing" works. Pity about all those customers who will
be left in the lurch when the 650B fad blows over, eh? Of course, by
then The Grant will have moved on to the Next Thing.

Quoted message said:

IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
Bombadil - a 650B mtb!

What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
700c Rambo.

Sure, because the pipe line is filled and sales on those models have
slowed to a trickle. Time for "something new" to flog to the faithful!
Rivensell survives by selling multiple bikes to the same small
customer base. The switch from 700c and 26" to 650B has allowed Riv to
sell essentially the same bike all over again to the same customers
(who think they are getting "something new"😉.

Quoted message said:

About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
block to be "put to sleep" next.

You are forgetting the Homer Hilsen, which is really just a re-warmed
Rambo.

On Nov 18, 8:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email hidden]> changed a thread title to:

Quoted message said:

"Rivendell uses customers as pawns in quest to increase profits."

Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.
Imagine, taking money from willing customers!

No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
he uses slave labor!

No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
bike mechanic in the same class as [censored]! [censored]! [censored]!

There. That ought to end the thread. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

On Nov 18, 8:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email hidden]> changed a thread title to:

Quoted message said:

"Rivendell uses customers as pawns in quest to increase profits."

Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.
Imagine, taking money from willing customers!

No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
he uses slave labor!

No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
bike mechanic in the same class as [censored]! [censored]! [censored]!

There. That ought to end the thread. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski......always an [censored]!

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

On Nov 18, 8:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email hidden]> changed a thread title to:

Quoted message said:

"Rivendell uses customers as pawns in quest to increase profits."

Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.
Imagine, taking money from willing customers!

No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
he uses slave labor!

No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
bike mechanic in the same class as [censored]! [censored]! [censored]!

There. That ought to end the thread. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski......always an [censored]!

Quoted message said:

Where is the "0% Attitude"?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

On Nov 18, 8:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email hidden]> changed a thread title to:

Quoted message said:

"Rivendell uses customers as pawns in quest to increase profits."

Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.
Imagine, taking money from willing customers!

No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
he uses slave labor!

No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
bike mechanic in the same class as [censored]! [censored]! [censored]!

There. That ought to end the thread. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski......always an [censored]!

Quoted message said:

Where is the "0% Attitude"?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

It's like listening to the grumbling over at the blacksmith's
when that newfangled horseless carriage goes past.
The self proclaimed experts with their nuggets of wisdom
sniggering with self satisfaction while the rest of the world
moves on.

And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers a decent product,
stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In China."

Maybe that is what makes the Bentonville butt-kissers so irate.
It's the exact opposite of everything they do.

JP

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Nb_%i.2280$7T.1771@trndny09...

<And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers a decent product,
stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In China.">

Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so, then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.

Hank Wirtz said:

And that's your argument for INTRODUCING an arcane size? Do you
actually believe what you're saying?

It's not actually introducing an arcane-not really that arcane-size
but making it available in the US. The French used it for many years
as their main size for wired on tires and only recently has it been
superceded by the 559 wheel. And in the mid 80s Raleigh sold a 650B
touring bike-the Portage of saintred memory-so it's not as out of the
mainstream as might be imagined. And today with the net and overnight
delivery oddball stuff suddenly becomes viable again. No longer are
you dependent on your LBS to carry 650B or order irt from Mel Pinto or
someone else. Call up Riv, give 'em your credit card and if you do it
before 5pm you can have it next morning. Might even make it possible
to tour on them here on the good old USA. So let's all lighten up.
Phil Brown

In article
<[email hidden]
groups.com>,

philcycles said:

Hank Wirtz said:

And that's your argument for INTRODUCING an arcane size? Do you
actually believe what you're saying?

It's not actually introducing an arcane-not really that arcane-size
but making it available in the US. The French used it for many years
as their main size for wired on tires and only recently has it been
superceded by the 559 wheel. And in the mid 80s Raleigh sold a 650B
touring bike-the Portage of saintred memory-so it's not as out of the
mainstream as might be imagined. And today with the net and overnight
delivery oddball stuff suddenly becomes viable again. No longer are
you dependent on your LBS to carry 650B or order irt from Mel Pinto or
someone else. Call up Riv, give 'em your credit card and if you do it
before 5pm you can have it next morning. Might even make it possible
to tour on them here on the good old USA. So let's all lighten up.

You did not chime in with "lighten up" in response to the
puff pieces and cheerleading.

ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size.
It predominates in France. It is the norm there.
Here where ISO 622 and 559 are widely available
it is unnecessary. Grant Peterson goes on all day

"it is impossible to properly design a 700C wheel bike
with these clearances (for fat tires and fenders) below about 57cm."

but I am not having it. A great road frame
in almost all sizes can be designed to run
fat 622 tires. And smaller frames with 559.
What is wrong with 559 tires? Answer: nothing.
If you want to build a smaller frame with
fat tires, then 559 is superior to 584.

--
Michael Press

Ozark Bicycle said:

bfd said:

On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <[email hidden]> wrote:
OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
profitable!

Yep, "niche marketing" works. Pity about all those customers who will
be left in the lurch when the 650B fad blows over, eh? Of course, by
then The Grant will have moved on to the Next Thing.

You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?

Wayne

"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Nb_%i.2280$7T.1771@trndny09...

<And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers a decent product,
stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In China.">

Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so, then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.

Yeah, the Chinese claim it's China and when they reacquire control the label may read "Made in China."
Taiwan sees itself as separate from the mainland. I personally side with the Taiwanese.