Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

650Beware?

Started by Michael Baldwin · · Last activity · 220 posts · 4,225 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Cycling Equipment
Published
17 November 2007
Last activity
12 January 2008
Original author
Michael Baldwin
Posts
220
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
4,225
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 21–40 of 220
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Quoted message said:

    "JP" <[email hidden] <[email hidden]>> wrote
    And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
    a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,
    offers a decent product,
    stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In
    China."

    bfd said:

    Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so,
    then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on
    China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long
    Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.

    Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
    Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  2. On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:20:52 -0800, Michael Press <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    "it is impossible to properly design a 700C wheel bike
    with these clearances (for fat tires and fenders) below about 57cm."

    Here endeth the first lesson.

    NB: A 54 cm Raleigh International with 630 wheels, 32 mm tires,
    and room for mud guards does not falsify the lesson.

    Aw [censored]. Excuse me, I have to go toss out some bikes that I used to
    think we nice comfortable rides - But I realize now they all suck.

    I wouldn't even Ebay to someone, it would be deceptive!

  3. On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:02:05 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
    Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
    --

    Holding on to that, eh?

  4. JP said:

    And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
    a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,

    I thought the original mission was a little bit different than where
    they've gone in the last few years. Maybe I was mistaken.

    Not that I care...but I might occasionally enjoy noting the 650B!

  5. Quoted message said:
    A Muzi said:

    Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
    Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.

    still just me said:

    Holding on to that, eh?

    yep.
    Freedom is always the right answer.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  6. ...there's definitely some phobia attached to tire/rim/wheel sizing,
    regardless the vehicle...and then there's lowly 650B!

  7. still just me said:
    JP said:

    And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
    a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,

    I thought the original mission was a little bit different than where
    they've gone in the last few years. Maybe I was mistaken.

    No, you're not mistaken. "In the beginning" Grant Petersen railed
    against oddball, hard-to-source, non-standard stuff. IOW, stuff like
    650B wheels and tires. He made a very strong case for 559/26" due to
    their easy availability.

    Then, he discovered the "bottom line advantages" of niche marketing,
    customer well-being be damned.

    Sad.

    Quoted message said:


    Not that I care...but I might occasionally enjoy noting the 650B!

  8. Wayne Pein said:
    Ozark Bicycle said:

    On Nov 17, 7:44 pm, bfd <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
    >in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
    dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
    profitable!

    Quoted message said:

    Yep, "niche marketing" works. Pity about all those customers who will
    be left in the lurch when the 650B fad blows over, eh? Of course, by
    then The Grant will have moved on to the Next Thing.

    You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?

    How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
    demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
    through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
    *absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
    559/26" and 622/700C?

  9. A Muzi said:
    Quoted message said:

    "JP" <[email hidden] <[email hidden]>> wrote
    And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
    a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,
    offers a decent product,
    stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In
    China."


    bfd said:

    Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so,
    then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on
    China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long
    Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.

    Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
    Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
    --

    You are one of the reasons?

  10. Ozark Bicycle said:

    On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?

    How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
    demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
    through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
    *absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
    559/26" and 622/700C?

    If there are no advantages to 650B as compared to both 559 and 700C,
    then based on your logic 559 and 700C confer no advantage over 650B.
    Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
    people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?

    It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
    two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
    person.

    Wayne

  11. Wayne Pein said:
    Ozark Bicycle said:
    Wayne Pein said:

    You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?

    Quoted message said:

    How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
    demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
    through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
    *absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
    559/26" and 622/700C?

    If there are no advantages to 650B as compared to both 559 and 700C,
    then based on your logic 559 and 700C confer no advantage over 650B.

    Other than being widely and easily available and well priced due to
    competition in the marketplace.

    Quoted message said:

    Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
    people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?

    Why don't you tell me?

    Quoted message said:


    It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
    two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
    person.

    "Replace two bikes with one"?

  12. In article <Nb_%i.2280$7T.1771@trndny09>, "JP" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing a
    dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers
    a decent product, stands behind everything it sells, nothing of
    which is "Made In China."

    It's always hi-larious watching the anti-Rivendell dudgeon some people
    get themselves worked into. It's just a small bike company. They just
    sell they stuff they like. All people have to do is not buy it if they
    don't agree.

  13. Ozark Bicycle said:
    Wayne Pein said:
    Ozark Bicycle said:

    On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?

    Quoted message said:

    How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
    demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
    through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
    *absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
    559/26" and 622/700C?

    If there are no advantages to 650B as compared to both 559 and 700C,
    then based on your logic 559 and 700C confer no advantage over 650B.

    Other than being widely and easily available and well priced due to
    competition in the marketplace.

    Quoted message said:

    Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
    people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?

    Why don't you tell me?

    Don't play dumb. It's for mt. bikes and road bikes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
    two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
    person.

    "Replace two bikes with one"?

    650B is between 559 and 700C in diameter. You claim that 650B offers no
    advantages over either. Obviously some people do.

    Wayne

  14. Wayne Pein said:
    Ozark Bicycle said:

    On Nov 18, 6:03 pm, Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ozark Bicycle wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >>You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
    >demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
    >through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
    >*absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
    >559/26" and 622/700C?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If there are no advantages to 650B as compared to both 559 and 700C,
    then based on your logic 559 and 700C confer no advantage over 650B.

    Quoted message said:

    Other than being widely and easily available and well priced due to
    competition in the marketplace.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
    people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?

    Quoted message said:

    Why don't you tell me?

    Don't play dumb. It's for mt. bikes and road bikes.

    That ain't necessarily so. You need to get out more.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
    two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
    person.

    Quoted message said:

    "Replace two bikes with one"?

    650B is between 559 and 700C in diameter. You claim that 650B offers no
    advantages over either. Obviously some people do.

    Do you? If so, please do list them!

  15. On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:32:37 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    still just me said:

    Holding on to that, eh?

    yep.
    Freedom is always the right answer.

    Seems to me that capitalism has trumped any concerns about freedom.

  16. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing a
    dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers
    a decent product, stands behind everything it sells, nothing of
    which is "Made In China."

    It's always hi-larious watching the anti-Rivendell dudgeon some people
    get themselves worked into. It's just a small bike company. They just
    sell they stuff they like. All people have to do is not buy it if they
    don't agree.

    That about sums it up. It's not as if Grant Peterson has the kind of
    marketing clout that's going to change the world. He markets to a network of
    people who already believe in his ideas & products. He writes well & spins a
    good yarn, so even those who disagree with a lot of what he says still enjoy
    the Rivendell Reader.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

  17. Wayne Pein said:
    Ozark Bicycle said:

    On Nov 18, 6:03 pm, Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ozark Bicycle wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
    people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?

    Quoted message said:

    Why don't you tell me?

    Don't play dumb. It's for mt. bikes and road bikes.

    I don't think Ozark's playing, Wayne. ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
    two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
    person.

    Quoted message said:

    "Replace two bikes with one"?

    650B is between 559 and 700C in diameter. You claim that 650B offers no
    advantages over either. Obviously some people do.

    The one advantage of 650B that makes sense to me is this: In the last
    10 years, it's been very difficult to find 700c bikes with sufficient
    clearance for fenders and tires wider than 28mm. I've battled that
    problem when helping others try to make their "good bikes" more
    useful.

    650B offers a possible solution. Changing to that rim & tire size
    allows more clearance. Yes, building wheels (and probably changing
    brakes) isn't cheap. But it's probably cheaper than changing the
    entire bike.

    BTW, the first I heard of 650B was back in, oh, 1974 or so. Fred
    DeLong recommended that as the optimum wheel size for touring
    tandems.

    Now, Fred DeLong was generally known as a) extremely knowledgeable
    about bike technology b) not connected in any way with bike
    marketing. He wasn't making such a recommendation to delude the poor
    people reading his writing. He was making the recommendation because
    he thought it made sense. And he clearly wasn't worried about 650B
    vanishing from the world.

    Of course, it may be that discount bike mechanics also rail against
    Fred DeLong just like they do against Grant Peterson, Jobst Brandt,
    and anyone else who makes them feel inferior.

    - Frank Krygowski

  18. A Muzi said:
    Quoted message said:

    "JP" <[email hidden] <[email hidden]>> wrote
    And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
    a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,
    offers a decent product,
    stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In
    China."


    bfd said:

    Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so,
    then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on
    China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long
    Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.

    Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
    Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.

    I don't even consider Hong Kong and Macau to be a part of China on the
    grounds that any place which requires you to pass through customs and
    use a passport to enter, speaks a different language, and uses a
    different currency is NOT THE SAME COUNTRY no matter what the
    governments of both sides say.

    Regarding the whole Taiwan issue ...

    At the Tour of Qinghai Lake the organizers refuse to use the flag of
    Taiwan or the flag for Chinese Taipei (the official Olympic
    designation) when hanging flags of all the countries of the teams
    participating so because Giant Asia Racing is based out of Taiwan in
    amongst more well known countries like the United States, Portugal,
    Japan, Germany, England, Denmark, Russia and the like you also get the
    country of Giant Bicycles.

    For the Tour of Hainan we didn't go down that road though it was a
    regular issue that we had to correct people who had called it Taiwan
    in the English (always must be referred to as Chinese Taipei) and that
    in the Chinese it was always Zhonghua Taibei instead of Zhongguo
    Taibei.

    This especially stuck out because I was usually the one who made the
    mistake in the English. Sometimes, however, some of the PRC Chinese
    people also mistakenly referred to it as Taiwan in English. One
    person I know made a gaffe and called them Taiwan on the radio in
    Chinese.

    It's good that we also had Hong Kong participating because it made it
    that much easier to cloud the issue when deciding where to put Chinese
    Taipei in the various lists. If you squint you can't really tell
    whether we stuck it with the national teams or if we stuck it with the
    professional teams.

    -M

  19. On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:32:37 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    A Muzi said:

    Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
    Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.

    still just me said:

    Holding on to that, eh?

    yep.
    Freedom is always the right answer.

    And in my experience, the stuff from Taiwan usually has fewer QC
    problems. They've been catering to the more demanding Western market
    for longer than the mainland, and it shows. In the PRC, the customer
    only gets good stuff if the customer knows how to make sure that is
    what is supplied. Otherwise, they'll ship whatever they've got. This
    applies to more than just toothpaste.

    Plus, the average Taiwanese worker gets paid something closer to a
    living wage for the area.
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  20. "Michael Press" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

    Quoted message said:

    ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size.
    It predominates in France. It is the norm
    there.

    It really isn't.

    There is a large fleet of older utility bikes still running 650B, but *very*
    few bikes built in the last twenty years are 650B. 26" (559mm) and 700c are
    by far the most common sizes. 650C and 20" (406mm) are easy to find. Many
    shops don't stock any 650B tyres, and I haven't seen a single new 650B rim
    in the 6 years I've lived here, though I know they're available from
    Berthoud and the like.

    Last year I renovated an old postman's bike for a friend. After much soul
    searching, I filed off the 650B cantilever mounts and had them replaced for
    559-26". The selection of tyres and rims is far greater, and (in my
    estimation) likely to remain so.

    James Thomson
    Paris 3e

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.