stem backwards ok?

eddie_1 said:

Hi, i bought a 24" bike for my son who is 9 but it is a bit too big
for him. In order to help with the reach to the handle bars, i was
wondering if it would be ok to install the quill stem backwards?
thanks! ~ed

Depends on what you mean by "OK".

Whether the bike will suffer mechanically, I can't say. I'd guess
not.

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement. I don't find that to be a big problem, but then
I ride recumbent bikes, where that arrangement is the norm, and I
already know how to ride "regular" bikes (and still do without
problems switching between them and my recumbents). Your son might be
a different story if he is just learning to ride.

Victor Kan said:

eddie_1 said:

Hi, i bought a 24" bike for my son who is 9 but it is a bit too big
for him. In order to help with the reach to the handle bars, i was
wondering if it would be ok to install the quill stem backwards?
thanks! ~ed

Depends on what you mean by "OK".

Whether the bike will suffer mechanically, I can't say. I'd guess
not.

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement.

Huh?!?

Quoted message said:

I don't find that to be a big problem, but then
I ride recumbent bikes

Ah. That explains it.

Bill Sornson said:

Victor Kan said:

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement.

Huh?!?

Huh what?

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep your
handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now much more
likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in front of it,
especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a 24" kids bike) or
has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless they have a longer
effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars to
the left rather than to the right.

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 10:52 am, eddie_1 <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement. I don't find that to be a big problem, but then
I ride recumbent bikes, where that arrangement is the norm, and I
already know how to ride "regular" bikes (and still do without
problems switching between them and my recumbents). Your son might be
a different story if he is just learning to ride.

Some one please explain this to me. What do you mean turning right you have
to move the handlebars to the left??

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep your
handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now much more
likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in front of it,
especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a 24" kids bike) or
has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless they have a longer
effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars to
the left rather than to the right.

Still doesn't make sense.

Victor Kan said:

Bill Sornson said:

Victor Kan said:

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement.

Huh?!?

Huh what?

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep your
handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now much more
likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in front of it,
especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a 24" kids bike) or
has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless they have a longer
effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars to
the left rather than to the right.

I did go visualize it. Unless it's a rudder (which it isn't), the handlebar
is still turned in the direction of the turn.

Bill "axis schmaxis" S.

DI said:

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 10:52 am, eddie_1 <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement. I don't find that to be a big problem, but then
I ride recumbent bikes, where that arrangement is the norm, and I
already know how to ride "regular" bikes (and still do without
problems switching between them and my recumbents). Your son might
be a different story if he is just learning to ride.

Some one please explain this to me. What do you mean turning right
you have to move the handlebars to the left??

He's a recumby. Plainly nuts. <eg>

DI said:

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep your
handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now much
more likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in front of
it, especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a 24" kids
bike) or has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless they have a
longer effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars to
the left rather than to the right.

Still doesn't make sense.

He's a /recumby/. HTH

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson said:

Victor Kan said:

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement.

Huh?!?

Huh what?

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep your
handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now much more
likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in front of it,
especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a 24" kids bike) or
has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless they have a longer
effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars to
the left rather than to the right.

When I ride and I want to turn right, I move the bars in a clockwise motion,
right hand back, left hand forward, regardless of the stem orientation. A
left turn is just the opposite. The same thing applies to my car. Hands on
the 10-2 position or 8-4 position, I just turn the wheel clockwise to go
right. No retraining necessary.

Chuck Davis

DI said:

Some one please explain this to me. What do you mean turning right you have
to move the handlebars to the left??

It's called counterstering and it's the way single track vehicles turn
above a walking pace BUT it's not really noticable on bicycles due to
bicycle geometry and the low forces involved. On a motorcycle it's a
different story. Just google it and you'll see an explanation.
Phil Brown

Bill Sornson said:

DI said:

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
Some one please explain this to me. What do you mean turning right
you have to move the handlebars to the left??

He's a recumby. Plainly nuts. <eg>

I think this exemplifies why folks who are used to regular bikes have
problems with recumbent bike handling. You're used to moving the bars
to the right to turn right. If you think of moving the bars clockwise
to turn right, it works whether you're riding a regular bike with the
bars ahead of the steering axis, or a recumbent with the bars behind
the steering axis.

Visualize a typical flat bar MTB setup.

When the stem is pointed forward and puts your handlebars and your
hands ahead of the steering axis, steering to turn right has you
sweeping your hands to the right, clockwise, correct?

Now visualize (try harder, Bill, I believe in you, you can do it!) the
stem pointing backwards rather than forwards, as the OP was
considering to bring the handlebars closer to the saddle to accomodate
is 9 year old son. Where are the handlebars now?

They are now behind the steering axis. Now try steering to make a
right turn. You still sweep your hands clockwise, correct? But what
direction are they moving now, to the right? Or to the left?

philcycles said:

DI said:

Some one please explain this to me. What do you mean turning right you have
to move the handlebars to the left??

It's called counterstering and it's the way single track vehicles turn
above a walking pace BUT it's not really noticable on bicycles due to
bicycle geometry and the low forces involved. On a motorcycle it's a
different story. Just google it and you'll see an explanation.
Phil Brown

That's actually not what I was talking about. Countersteering applies
whether the handlebars are ahead of or behind the steering axis and
considers the orientation of the front wheel, right? I'm talking
solely about what the handlebars and your hands do in the two
different configurations, and how they might impact a kid just
learning to ride a bike.

Victor Kan said:

I think this exemplifies why folks who are used to regular bikes have
problems with recumbent bike handling.

I'm used to regular bikes will probably never have a problem with
recumbent bike handling.
--
JT
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"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Victor Kan said:

Bill Sornson said:

Victor Kan wrote:
> But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
> moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
> "usual" arrangement.

Huh?!?

Huh what?

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep your
handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now much more
likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in front of it,
especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a 24" kids bike) or
has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless they have a longer
effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars to
the left rather than to the right.

I did go visualize it. Unless it's a rudder (which it isn't), the
handlebar is still turned in the direction of the turn.

With the stem facing backwards it is a rudder. Sheesh. Visualize.

Greg

"G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Victor Kan said:

On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Victor Kan wrote:
>> But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
>> moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
>> "usual" arrangement.
>
> Huh?!?

Huh what?

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep your
handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now much more
likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in front of it,
especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a 24" kids bike) or
has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless they have a longer
effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars to
the left rather than to the right.

I did go visualize it. Unless it's a rudder (which it isn't), the
handlebar is still turned in the direction of the turn.

With the stem facing backwards it is a rudder. Sheesh. Visualize.

Greg

Gee, now I get it, I think!!! He's talking about the stem moving left
and right, not the handle bars, they are still moving forward and backward.

DI said:

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep your
handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now much more
likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in front of it,
especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a 24" kids bike) or
has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless they have a longer
effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars to
the left rather than to the right.

Still doesn't make sense.

Think of a car steering wheel. You turn right. The part of the wheel at
12 o'clock moves right, the part at 6 o'clock moves left.

With a normal stem the handlebars are like a tangent to the steering
wheel at 12 o'clock, but with a stem pointing backwards they're at 6
o'clock.

In both cases you rotate the bars clockwise, but with a normal stem the
point where the handlebars are attached to the stem moves to the right
of its original position; with a reversed stem it moves to the left.

eddie_1 said:

Hi, i bought a 24" bike for my son who is 9 but it is a bit too big
for him. In order to help with the reach to the handle bars, i was
wondering if it would be ok to install the quill stem backwards?
thanks! ~ed

Wow, how much too big for him is the bike, can he even reach the
pedals. Go buy your son a bike that fits you tight wod! And no it's
not a great idea and no he'll not have to steer in the opposite
direction. Maybe buying a really short stem might help or sliding the
seat as far forward as possible. If the seat post has any layback, you
may think about turning it around.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement. I don't find that to be a big problem, but then
I ride recumbent bikes, where that arrangement is the norm, and I
already know how to ride "regular" bikes (and still do without
problems switching between them and my recumbents). Your son might be
a different story if he is just learning to ride.

It's not a big practical difference, because the same basic arm motions
produce the same result for steering the bike.

Barnard Frederick said:

It's not a big practical difference, because the same basic arm motions
produce the same result for steering the bike.

Maybe yes, probably no. if you use a BMX stem with 35mm of extension,
and clamp in a flat bar, than the arm motions will be sort of the same
whether the stem is oriented forwards or backwards-- with one arm
moving mostly forwards and the other mostly aftwards.

But put a road drop bar on a 135mm stem, and place your hands on the
brake hoods, and your arms will move predominantly sideways together
(rather than forwards/aftwards) towards the direction where you point
the front wheel. Likewise if you attach an 18" tall rear-tilting
'bent bar to a rear-facing stem, your arms will swing in the opposite
sideways direction to make the same turn, e.g. swing your arms to the
left to turn the front wheel to the right.

It's just like steering a car by one of the spokes of a 2-spoke
steering wheel-- which direction of turn is implied by "up" or "down"
depends on which spoke you are holding.

Chalo