stem backwards ok?

Quoted message said:

Victor Kan said:

I think this exemplifies why folks who are used to regular bikes have
problems with recumbent bike handling.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

I'm used to regular bikes will probably never have a problem with
recumbent bike handling.

Right. In order to have a problem with recumbent handling, I would have
to handle a recumbent. Not likely.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Ben C said:

DI said:

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep
your handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now
much more likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in
front of it, especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a
24" kids bike) or has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless
they have a longer effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars
to the left rather than to the right.

Still doesn't make sense.

Think of a car steering wheel. You turn right. The part of the wheel
at 12 o'clock moves right, the part at 6 o'clock moves left.

With a normal stem the handlebars are like a tangent to the steering
wheel at 12 o'clock, but with a stem pointing backwards they're at 6
o'clock.

In both cases you rotate the bars clockwise, but with a normal stem
the point where the handlebars are attached to the stem moves to the
right of its original position; with a reversed stem it moves to the
left.

OK, that at least makes sense. Yes, the STEM would swing left as you turn
right, and vice versa. That's not what Victor claimed originally, however.
("But the handling will be different since turning right will mean moving
the /handlebars/ to the left (and vice versa) rather than the 'usual'
arrangement."😉 Italic added.

G.T. said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Victor Kan said:

On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Victor Kan wrote:
>> But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
>> moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
>> "usual" arrangement.
>
> Huh?!?

Huh what?

Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep
your handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now
much more likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in
front of it, especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a
24" kids bike) or has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless
they have a longer effective reach than the stem length.

Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars
to the left rather than to the right.

I did go visualize it. Unless it's a rudder (which it isn't), the
handlebar is still turned in the direction of the turn.

With the stem facing backwards it is a rudder. Sheesh. Visualize.

Victor's first declaration was, "But the handling will be different since
turning right will mean moving the /handlebars/ to the left (and vice versa)
rather than the 'usual' arrangement."

The handlebar is not a rudder, and is turned the exact same direction as
always. He did not say that the STEM moves left to turn right, which is, of
course, correct.

Sheesh yourself.

Quoted message said:

Greg

Marz said:

eddie_1 said:

Hi, i bought a 24" bike for my son who is 9 but it is a bit too big
for him. In order to help with the reach to the handle bars, i was
wondering if it would be ok to install the quill stem backwards?
thanks! ~ed

Wow, how much too big for him is the bike, can he even reach the
pedals. Go buy your son a bike that fits you tight wod! And no it's
not a great idea and no he'll not have to steer in the opposite
direction. Maybe buying a really short stem might help or sliding the
seat as far forward as possible. If the seat post has any layback, you
may think about turning it around.

Swap the saddle direction then, too. LOL

Bill "poor kid's got enough problems" S.

Bill Sornson said:

OK, that at least makes sense. Yes, the STEM would swing left as you turn
right, and vice versa. That's not what Victor claimed originally, however.
("But the handling will be different since turning right will mean moving
the /handlebars/ to the left (and vice versa) rather than the 'usual'
arrangement."😉 Italic added.

You're still not visualizing it right. I don't think you're going to
believe it unless you actually try it for real on your own bike.

Bill Sornson said:

Victor's first declaration was, "But the handling will be different since
turning right will mean moving the /handlebars/ to the left (and vice versa)
rather than the 'usual' arrangement."

The handlebar is not a rudder, and is turned the exact same direction as
always. He did not say that the STEM moves left to turn right, which is, of
course, correct.

Sheesh yourself.

So you believe that if the stem is behind the steering axis it is
indeed is moving left to turn right, but somehow the handlebar that is
attached to the stem is moving in the opposite direction?

As I said, that may be true IF you have drop bars whose reach is
longer than the stem and the position of your hands would remain ahead
of the steering axis, though as it passes behind the plane of the
steering axis perpendicular to the direction main line of the frame,
the handlebars would be moving left instead. If your hand position on
those handlebars started out behind the steering axis when going
straight, surely the case with flat bars and a backwards pointing
stem, your hands and the bars move left to turn right whether you
believe it or not.

As for rudders, in the bent world, this is referred to as "the tiller
effect". I probably shouldn't have mentioned recumbents in my replies
though--it may have clouded your visualization capabilities since
seeing it would almost bring you to looking at how a recumbent is
commonly setup, and we all know how that disagrees with you.

Victor Kan said:

Bill Sornson said:

OK, that at least makes sense. Yes, the STEM would swing left as
you turn right, and vice versa. That's not what Victor claimed
originally, however. ("But the handling will be different since
turning right will mean moving the /handlebars/ to the left (and
vice versa) rather than the 'usual' arrangement."😉 Italic added.

You're still not visualizing it right. I don't think you're going to
believe it unless you actually try it for real on your own bike.

I get what you mean -- maybe with a weird enough arrangement one would
"slide" the bar (singular, BTW) to the left to steer right, but merely
turning the stem backwards (a crazy thing to do on a diamond-framed bike
BTW) wouldn't by itself drastically change the way one would steer the
thing.

Wanna turn right? Turn the bar to the right.

Out.

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.T. said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Victor Kan wrote:
> On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Victor Kan wrote:
>>> But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
>>> moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
>>> "usual" arrangement.
>>
>> Huh?!?
>
> Huh what?
>
> Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
> bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep
> your handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now
> much more likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in
> front of it, especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a
> 24" kids bike) or has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless
> they have a longer effective reach than the stem length.
>
> Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
> since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars
> to the left rather than to the right.

I did go visualize it. Unless it's a rudder (which it isn't), the
handlebar is still turned in the direction of the turn.

With the stem facing backwards it is a rudder. Sheesh. Visualize.

Victor's first declaration was, "But the handling will be different since
turning right will mean moving the /handlebars/ to the left (and vice
versa) rather than the 'usual' arrangement."

The handlebar is not a rudder, and is turned the exact same direction as
always. He did not say that the STEM moves left to turn right, which is,
of course, correct.

Sheesh yourself.

Are you forgetting that the bars are attached to the stem? If the stem is
moving to the left than how is the bar swinging to the right?

The only time you're getting a pivot around the headset is when you have a
zero length stem.

If the bar is in front of the headset one swings the bars to the right to
turn right (ignoring the initial aspects of counter-steering).

If the bar is behind the headset one swings the bar to the left to turn
right (again, ignoring the initial aspects of counter-steering).

Sheesh x 2.

Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Victor Kan said:

Bill Sornson said:

OK, that at least makes sense. Yes, the STEM would swing left as
you turn right, and vice versa. That's not what Victor claimed
originally, however. ("But the handling will be different since
turning right will mean moving the /handlebars/ to the left (and
vice versa) rather than the 'usual' arrangement."😉 Italic added.

You're still not visualizing it right. I don't think you're going to
believe it unless you actually try it for real on your own bike.

I get what you mean -- maybe with a weird enough arrangement one would
"slide" the bar (singular, BTW) to the left to steer right, but merely
turning the stem backwards (a crazy thing to do on a diamond-framed bike
BTW) wouldn't by itself drastically change the way one would steer the
thing.

Wanna turn right? Turn the bar to the right.

Maybe with a 10mm stem turned backwards, but with a 100mm stem turned
backwards it's a clear swing left to turn right. I just tried it.

Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
> bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep
> your handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now
> much more likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in
> front of it, especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a
> 24" kids bike) or has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless
> they have a longer effective reach than the stem length.
> Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise, but
> since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the bars
> to the left rather than to the right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

DI said:

Still doesn't make sense.

Quoted message said:

Ben C said:

Think of a car steering wheel. You turn right. The part of the wheel
at 12 o'clock moves right, the part at 6 o'clock moves left.
With a normal stem the handlebars are like a tangent to the steering
wheel at 12 o'clock, but with a stem pointing backwards they're at 6
o'clock.
In both cases you rotate the bars clockwise, but with a normal stem
the point where the handlebars are attached to the stem moves to the
right of its original position; with a reversed stem it moves to the
left.

Bill Sornson said:

OK, that at least makes sense. Yes, the STEM would swing left as you turn
right, and vice versa. That's not what Victor claimed originally, however.
("But the handling will be different since turning right will mean moving
the /handlebars/ to the left (and vice versa) rather than the 'usual'
arrangement."😉 Italic added.

Victor's description seemed clear to me the first time and still does.
As Chalo notes, a short stem would make the effect minimal but imagine a
120 stem pointing right at you - get it now? A road bar might even hit
the top tube on its way to the left in a right turn.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 1 May 2007 18:29:21 -0700, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the bar is in front of the headset one swings the bars to the right to
turn right (ignoring the initial aspects of counter-steering).

If the bar is behind the headset one swings the bar to the left to turn
right (again, ignoring the initial aspects of counter-steering).

Sheesh x 2.

Yawn. You're still making the same motion, no retraining necessary.
Might handle a little funky though.

If it was a rudder, it would be steering the back wheel. Then it
really would be opposite. :-)

still me said:

Yawn. You're still making the same motion, no retraining necessary.
Might handle a little funky though.

In the case of a kid's bike, which is what we're discussing at some
level, funky handling, even a little, could be bad. Or it could be a
non-issue--lots of kids switch between Xbox, GameCube and Playstation
controllers all the time without issue.

In the specific case of a bike though, my fixie with a short reach
stem and mustache bars (whoops, I guess I should say "bar"😉 has three
main hand positions that I use. Out front on the hoods my hands are
in front of the steering axis, in the middle of the ends it's purely
rotation, no sweep, and on the extreme of the ends, my hands are
behind the steering axis with the effect we've been discussing.

The difference in handling between the three positions is very
noticeable if I'm climbing out of the saddle on the ends and throwing
the bike side to side. If I'm just cruising, I'd agree that the
difference is toned down to just "a little funky".

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 1 May 2007 18:29:21 -0700, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the bar is in front of the headset one swings the bars to the right to
turn right (ignoring the initial aspects of counter-steering).

If the bar is behind the headset one swings the bar to the left to turn
right (again, ignoring the initial aspects of counter-steering).

Sheesh x 2.

Yawn. You're still making the same motion, no retraining necessary.
Might handle a little funky though.

So you actually tried it? With a 100mm long stem or longer? Yeah, I knew
you hadn't.

The shorter the stem the less retraining necessary.

Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

Quoted message said:

still me said:

Yawn. You're still making the same motion, no retraining necessary.
Might handle a little funky though.

Victor Kan said:

In the case of a kid's bike, which is what we're discussing at some
level, funky handling, even a little, could be bad. Or it could be a
non-issue--lots of kids switch between Xbox, GameCube and Playstation
controllers all the time without issue.

In the specific case of a bike though, my fixie with a short reach
stem and mustache bars (whoops, I guess I should say "bar"😉 has three
main hand positions that I use. Out front on the hoods my hands are
in front of the steering axis, in the middle of the ends it's purely
rotation, no sweep, and on the extreme of the ends, my hands are
behind the steering axis with the effect we've been discussing.

The difference in handling between the three positions is very
noticeable if I'm climbing out of the saddle on the ends and throwing
the bike side to side. If I'm just cruising, I'd agree that the
difference is toned down to just "a little funky".

Although this was enjoyable, the earlier suggestion to just get the kid
a proper fitting bike was good advice.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article <[email hidden]>,

Barnard Frederick said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement. I don't find that to be a big problem, but then
I ride recumbent bikes, where that arrangement is the norm, and I
already know how to ride "regular" bikes (and still do without
problems switching between them and my recumbents). Your son might be
a different story if he is just learning to ride.

It's not a big practical difference, because the same basic arm motions
produce the same result for steering the bike.

If the stem leaves the steering tube an goes forward,
then to turn right you rotate the steering tube
clock-wise. What direction does the stem move?
Answer: right.

If the stem leaves the steering tube an goes backward,
then to turn right you rotate the steering tube
clock-wise. What direction does the stem move?
Answer: left.

--
Michael Press

A Muzi said:

Although this was enjoyable, the earlier suggestion to just get the kid
a proper fitting bike was good advice.

Easier said than done for a 9 year old. If folks lament the reduction
in the number of sizes in adult bikes brought about with the compact
frame with respect to proper fitting, they ain't seen nothin' yet if
they haven't shopped kids bikes.

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Victor Kan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
>> bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep
>> your handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now
>> much more likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in
>> front of it, especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a
>> 24" kids bike) or has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless
>> they have a longer effective reach than the stem length.
>> Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise,
>> but since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the
>> bars to the left rather than to the right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

DI <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Still doesn't make sense.

Quoted message said:

Ben C said:

Think of a car steering wheel. You turn right. The part of the wheel
at 12 o'clock moves right, the part at 6 o'clock moves left.
With a normal stem the handlebars are like a tangent to the steering
wheel at 12 o'clock, but with a stem pointing backwards they're at 6
o'clock.
In both cases you rotate the bars clockwise, but with a normal stem
the point where the handlebars are attached to the stem moves to the
right of its original position; with a reversed stem it moves to the
left.

Bill Sornson said:

OK, that at least makes sense. Yes, the STEM would swing left as
you turn right, and vice versa. That's not what Victor claimed
originally, however. ("But the handling will be different since
turning right will mean moving the /handlebars/ to the left (and
vice versa) rather than the 'usual' arrangement."😉 Italic added.

Victor's description seemed clear to me the first time and still does.
As Chalo notes, a short stem would make the effect minimal but
imagine a 120 stem pointing right at you - get it now? A road bar
might even hit the top tube on its way to the left in a right turn.

Yes...but the BAR still turns in the same direction.

I give up.

REVERSED STEMS FOR EVERYONE! :-D

G.T. said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.T. said:

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Victor Kan wrote:
>> On May 1, 2:08 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> Victor Kan wrote:
>>>> But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
>>>> moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than
>>>> the "usual" arrangement.
>>>
>>> Huh?!?
>>
>> Huh what?
>>
>> Try it, or just visualize it. Turn the stem around on one of your
>> bikes so that it points backwards rather than forwards, but keep
>> your handlebars oriented the same way. Your hand position is now
>> much more likely to be behind the steering axis rather than in
>> front of it, especially if it is a flat bar bike (my guess for a
>> 24" kids bike) or has swept back bars, even on drop bars unless
>> they have a longer effective reach than the stem length.
>>
>> Now try turning right. Your hands still sweep kinda clockwise,
>> but since you're on the other side of the axis, you're moving the
>> bars to the left rather than to the right.
>
> I did go visualize it. Unless it's a rudder (which it isn't), the
> handlebar is still turned in the direction of the turn.
>

With the stem facing backwards it is a rudder. Sheesh. Visualize.

Victor's first declaration was, "But the handling will be different
since turning right will mean moving the /handlebars/ to the left
(and vice versa) rather than the 'usual' arrangement."

The handlebar is not a rudder, and is turned the exact same
direction as always. He did not say that the STEM moves left to
turn right, which is, of course, correct.

Sheesh yourself.

Are you forgetting that the bars are attached to the stem? If the
stem is moving to the left than how is the bar swinging to the right?

The only time you're getting a pivot around the headset is when you
have a zero length stem.

If the bar is in front of the headset one swings the bars to the
right to turn right (ignoring the initial aspects of
counter-steering).
If the bar is behind the headset one swings the bar to the left to
turn right (again, ignoring the initial aspects of counter-steering).

Sheesh x 2.

You say swing, I say TURN.

That's why you go to more fun parties.

SHEESH3.

G.T. said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 1 May 2007 18:29:21 -0700, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the bar is in front of the headset one swings the bars to the
right to turn right (ignoring the initial aspects of
counter-steering). If the bar is behind the headset one swings the bar
to the left to
turn right (again, ignoring the initial aspects of
counter-steering). Sheesh x 2.

Yawn. You're still making the same motion, no retraining necessary.
Might handle a little funky though.

So you actually tried it? With a 100mm long stem or longer? Yeah, I
knew you hadn't.

The shorter the stem the less retraining necessary.

I don't care if the stem's so long you have to stand to protect your
bearings. The /handlebar/ still /turns/ in the direction of the...TURN!
(It's not a control stick in Flight Simulator.)

Swinging Movement (baby) ain't the same as Turning Direction.

Bill "there...it is written" S.

PS: If you turn right, your right hand moves in and your left hand moves
out, no matter how imperceptibly, regardless of stem length or orientation.
That's written too, now. (And yes, we're leaving /lean/ out of it.)

Michael Press said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Barnard Frederick said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

But the handling will be different since turning right will mean
moving the handlebars to the left (and vice versa) rather than the
"usual" arrangement. I don't find that to be a big problem, but
then I ride recumbent bikes, where that arrangement is the norm,
and I already know how to ride "regular" bikes (and still do without
problems switching between them and my recumbents). Your son might
be a different story if he is just learning to ride.

It's not a big practical difference, because the same basic arm
motions produce the same result for steering the bike.

If the stem leaves the steering tube an goes forward,
then to turn right you rotate the steering tube
clock-wise. What direction does the stem move?
Answer: right.

If the stem leaves the steering tube an goes backward,
then to turn right you rotate the steering tube
clock-wise. What direction does the stem move?
Answer: left.

Too bad that's not what Victor was taking about. (Hint: he mentioned the
handlebars, even though most bikes only have one, of course.)