Weight training?

"Janithor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

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Does anyone mix in weight training? I'd like to add weights to complement
my running, not necessarily to improve it. Right now there isn't an ounce
of fat on my legs, but the rest of me is a little bit too soft. I want to
improve my overall fitness level, esp. adding strength to the rest of my
body, not just the muscles that make me move one leg in front of the
other.

I had good success 2-3 sets of 10-15 reps with upper body and lower body
lifting. Focus on the upper body, back, chest, abs/core, quads, and I did
them all in each workout, twice a week on my easy days. The reps were best
done with freeweights, moving at a controlled pace. Intensity was not
high - my performance always improved more if I didn't beat myself up on the
weights so that the next days' hard workout wasn't affected by soreness. I
always skipped the calf raises and lower leg stuff - they left me too sore
for really no benefit.
Unfortunately, the people I've talked to who seem to 'know' weight
training couldn't boil down their advice to a sensible, understandable
recommendation for me. So what I do is what was recommended by my high
school and college coaches.

Dave

Janithor said:

Does anyone mix in weight training?

I used to, but I eventually quit.

Quoted message said:

I'd like to add weights to
complement my running, not necessarily to improve it. Right now there
isn't an ounce of fat on my legs,

Unless you have popup veins on your thighs, there is quite a bit more than an
ounce of fat on your legs. If you do have popout veins on your thighs, you
probably also have good muscle definition everywhere else.

Quoted message said:

but the rest of me is a little bit too
soft.

Yes, because you're fat.

Spot reduction doesn't work. You're not going to make your upper body less
"soft" by lifting weights.

Quoted message said:

I want to improve my overall fitness level, esp. adding strength
to the rest of my body,

OK, but ultimately you have to choose between general fitness and being fit at
running. If you maintain about the same body weight (so most of the gains are
neuromuscular), it won't hurt your running, but you won't be able to lift a
whole lot of weight unless you're prepared to gain some lean body mass. But if
you do that, you'll run slower.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Janithor said:

I want to improve my overall fitness level, esp. adding strength
to the rest of my body,

OK, but ultimately you have to choose between general fitness and being
fit at
running. If you maintain about the same body weight (so most of the gains
are
neuromuscular), it won't hurt your running, but you won't be able to lift
a
whole lot of weight unless you're prepared to gain some lean body mass.
But if
you do that, you'll run slower.

I have found improvements in my running due to weight lifting. The
strength/stamina gained in my upper body and torso more than offset the
slight bulk if any that I gained. In my lifting I didn't make significant
progress if you measured the amount of weight I could lift - but the number
of sets and ability to recover from it improved substantially. My muscle
tone improved. But I'm a generally skinny guy, maybe too skinny to begin
with.
If your softness is related to fat, the lifting can help, but only in
the sense of narrowing the gap of calories burned vs. calories eaten. If
this is the case, I still recommend weight lifting, but remember (like
Donovan said) that doing arm exercises will not target fat there - it is an
overall thing, and unfortunately the parts you want to see disappear will be
the last to go.

Dave

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Spot reduction doesn't work. You're not going to make your upper body less
"soft" by lifting weights.

Why do you guys listen to this dullard? He's completely wrong.
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

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Donovan Rebbechi said:

Janithor said:

Does anyone mix in weight training?

I used to, but I eventually quit.

How come? What were your goals - did you do this in some program or
with a coach, or just on you own?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like to add weights to
complement my running, not necessarily to improve it. Right now there
isn't an ounce of fat on my legs,

Unless you have popup veins on your thighs, there is quite a bit more than an
ounce of fat on your legs. If you do have popout veins on your thighs, you
probably also have good muscle definition everywhere else.

I was speaking casually, not formally. I didn't mean metaphysically
absolute 0% fat. I meant that when you look at my legs, they look firm,
toned, and in good shape, and you don't see any hint of wobbly fat on
them anywhere.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but the rest of me is a little bit too
soft.

Yes, because you're fat.

Spot reduction doesn't work. You're not going to make your upper body less
"soft" by lifting weights.

Yes, I know this. That's why I'm focusing on running (partly) - to burn
lots of calories. I've lost about 10 lbs since I started again - the
problem is:

a.) My upper body strength is weak. I could run from an attacker, but
if I was caught, I couldn't fight worth a damn. (And yes, I was
attacked just last week, fortunately I was in my car and got away.
Something about working alone late at night and having keys to lots of
buildings seems to make me a nice target.)

b.) Even if I lose more weight, my muscles under the skin right now are
not toned. I think working on other muscle groups overall would help
the overall appearance even as (if) I lose more weight.

c.) I've read that muscle burns more calories than fat, even when
resting. So if I have more muscle mass overall, I would think this
would help keep off the weight.

d.) I don't want to be able to just run fast but have anyone be able to
kick sand in my face; I want overall strength too, even though I enjoy
running more than other forms of exercise.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I want to improve my overall fitness level, esp. adding strength
to the rest of my body,

OK, but ultimately you have to choose between general fitness and being fit at
running. If you maintain about the same body weight (so most of the gains are
neuromuscular), it won't hurt your running, but you won't be able to lift a
whole lot of weight unless you're prepared to gain some lean body mass. But if
you do that, you'll run slower.

So, you're saying that if I gain muscle mass in my upper body, this
would be at the expense of speed when I run? That's certainly a
trade-off I'd make. Like I say, I'm not looking to run as fast as
possible at the expense of everything else. I'd rather be more
balanced, while still being able to run at a respectable pace (compared
to the general population) against any other guy in my age range. I
look at running as my base level of fitness, a platform on which to
build. If I didn't have to work, and I had money, I'd be doing a lot
more. But time/money constrains me to running for now.

I was doing good tell last night. I try to do the sky watch thing and
all light pollution happen.and barking dogs fighting cats and all around
They are Not going to let me watch the sky last night happen....
any who. back left leg and all is down again.looks like stretching time
now for me.......
My point is: when you think you got all the variables in sink.They well
pull you back into it again.......

so I am going back to the basic.......again..... [censored] to the macs...

it is like the race and the people get drift or smell. and then BAM
they well do what it takes to wreck your up combing event. by hoo or
crook or lacked sleep..throw on a tombs of work the day before the
race.. make you has to word that day of the race and at the last micro
second they say o.k. you can go race.. because I lost money and more
jobs because of you,. in other word thawy walk out on me so I am on
you..type B.s........

for me. I would tell you, butt then again. I don't run........why
because they did it to them.....so this varible means they do it to
me........

fat upper body trim lower body person......
maybe you are right...and work on the upper body....... and carry a big
stick and walk soft.

Janithor said:

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Donovan Rebbechi said:

Janithor said:

Does anyone mix in weight training?

I used to, but I eventually quit.

How come?

Because I wanted to focus on running, and having big pecs doesn't help you
run faster.

Quoted message said:

What were your goals -

To get bigger and stronger and also get faster. The problem is that these are
conflicting goals. Eventually you have to choose one or the other.

Are you familiar with the decalthlon ? Well, those guys are pretty slow in the
1500m. The reason they're slow is that you can't be big and strong (like a
thrower) and run fast times.

Quoted message said:

did you do this in some program or
with a coach, or just on you own?

One my own.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like to add weights to
complement my running, not necessarily to improve it. Right now there
isn't an ounce of fat on my legs,

Unless you have popup veins on your thighs, there is quite a bit more than an
ounce of fat on your legs. If you do have popout veins on your thighs, you
probably also have good muscle definition everywhere else.

I was speaking casually, not formally. I didn't mean metaphysically
absolute 0% fat. I meant that when you look at my legs, they look firm,
toned, and in good shape, and you don't see any hint of wobbly fat on
them anywhere.

That's just a side-effect of the way your bodyfat is distributed. Most guys
do not get a whole lot of body fat on their legs, and even less on their arms,
especially forearms. For example, it's not unusual for guys (especially old
guys) to have popout veins on their forearms and yet still have a gut. Most
men tend to keep their body fat around their torso and to some degree their
chest/back.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I know this. That's why I'm focusing on running (partly) - to burn
lots of calories. I've lost about 10 lbs since I started again - the
problem is:

a.) My upper body strength is weak. I could run from an attacker, but
if I was caught, I couldn't fight worth a damn. (And yes, I was

Do more running (-; Take martial arts or self-defense. Being able to bench
press a little bit more is not going to help you a whole lot.

Quoted message said:

b.) Even if I lose more weight, my muscles under the skin right now are
not toned.

"Toning" is [censored]. You will not find a physiology book that uses the term.
Having the appearance of "tone" is really just about having less body fat.

Quoted message said:

c.) I've read that muscle burns more calories than fat, even when
resting.

Well that's true, because fat doesn't burn anything (except for the fact that
you have to lug it around and that you may waste some energy synthesising it
from different macronutrients)

It doesn't burn a whole lot. If you gain 5% weight for example, you do not
burn 5% more calories. Proportionately, your brain and kidneys are probably
the biggest energy hogs. Think more and go to the bathroom a lot (-;

Quoted message said:

d.) I don't want to be able to just run fast but have anyone be able to
kick sand in my face; I want overall strength too, even though I enjoy
running more than other forms of exercise.

Take self-defense or similar.

Quoted message said:

So, you're saying that if I gain muscle mass in my upper body, this
would be at the expense of speed when I run?

Yep.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

x-no-archive: yes

Donovan Rebbechi said:

That's just a side-effect of the way your bodyfat is distributed. Most guys
do not get a whole lot of body fat on their legs, and even less on their arms,
especially forearms. For example, it's not unusual for guys (especially old
guys) to have popout veins on their forearms and yet still have a gut. Most
men tend to keep their body fat around their torso and to some degree their
chest/back.

Yup, that's me. Although I am very much a stocky guy, so even in high
school when I was in great shape, I was still at the high end of the
weight chart for my height.

Quoted message said:

"Toning" is [censored]. You will not find a physiology book that uses the term.
Having the appearance of "tone" is really just about having less body fat.

Really? You don't think building the muscle underneath would help as
well? I would think there would be a difference between a flat stomach,
and a flat stomach with some ripples underneath?

Quoted message said:

Take self-defense or similar.

Yeah, I'd like to. Again, I think strength would also help, not just
knowing technique. I mean, come on, a 5'5" female black belt against a
6'2" hulking bruiser with no training - she's going to be have to be
awfully damn good and get some perfect shots to take him down. He can
take her down through brute strength.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, you're saying that if I gain muscle mass in my upper body, this
would be at the expense of speed when I run?

Yep.

Again, that's my ultimate goal, to hit both targets, not necessarily to
peak at either. Although I think I'm at the sweet spot in the beginning
right now where I'm showing big improvements, so I think where I'm at
right now, I can improve on both. Someone like you who is near his peak
and has been running for a long time, I would think that this tradeoff
would be more pronounced?

Quoted message said:

Someone like you who is near his peak and has been running for a long time,

Donovan has not been running "a long time" and he's not near his peak
either.

What is your height, weight, & age? I used to lift a lot too...but
quit about 1 year ago. you can't have it "both ways"...the lifting
will always come at a cost to your performance @ distance beyond 5K / 3
miles.

Quoted message said:

Having the appearance of "tone" is really just about having less body fat.

really? so is this person exceptionally well "toned"?
http://www.pix.org.uk/showcase/1998/images/image_0002.jpg

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Someone like you who is near his peak and has been running for a long time,

Donovan has not been running "a long time" and he's not near his peak
either.

Oh, I was under the impression that he was. What I meant is, the guys
finishing near the top - once you run a 2:20 marathon, where do you go
from there? Whereas the schlub in the back running his first marathon
and finishing at 4:30, he may be able to take a lot more off. He may
still never even dream of coming close to 2:20, but he can take a lot
more time off than a guy already at the top of his game.

Quoted message said:

What is your height, weight, & age? I used to lift a lot too...but
quit about 1 year ago. you can't have it "both ways"...the lifting
will always come at a cost to your performance @ distance beyond 5K / 3
miles.

I'm 38, 5'8", and I think I'm around 183. I was 155-160 in high school,
for reference. I'd never get down to 140 or something like that, I'm
too stocky, nor do I want to. If I can get under 170, I'd be very happy.

No, I just want to get physically stronger. Honestly, I'm really
enjoying the running right now, so I'm going to keep going with that for
a while. But I wouldn't mind eventually working on my upper body too,
even at the cost of speed.

Quoted message said:

I'm 38, 5'8", and I think I'm around 183.

well this changes everything and makes the whole discussion of this
thread silly. you're 25 .lbs heavier than you were in highschool....
it's a no brainer....screw the gym, you can probably use dropping 20
..lbs...via diet & running...and you should avoid the gym until you're
down to 165 .lbs.

x-no-archive: yes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm 38, 5'8", and I think I'm around 183.

well this changes everything and makes the whole discussion of this
thread silly. you're 25 .lbs heavier than you were in highschool....
it's a no brainer....screw the gym, you can probably use dropping 20
.lbs...via diet & running...and you should avoid the gym until you're
down to 165 .lbs.

And so...I'll be 20 lbs lighter but still have weak arms. This helps
build upper body strength...how?

Here's an interesting faq, just now found it:

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ejk4e/runlift1.txt

Quoted message said:

And so...I'll be 20 lbs lighter but still have weak arms.

_
....but you'll be in shape, right now you are not. it's harder to get
fit with age....and at your age it's more critical that you get fit
sooner rather than later. prioritize getting in shape today. after
you've accomplished that, then go to the gym if you wish.

Quoted message said:

This helps build upper body strength...how?

oh yeah...i forget, it's your life and you're entitled have have
misguided priorities. go to the gym, get bigger, heavier and less fit.
just remember your use of the word "schlub" as you're more likely to
be that guy you characterized......than a fit runner.

quite honestly most of the content you've stated is high questionable
now that you've characterized your age, height & weight. You did say,
"Right now there isn't an ounce of fat on my legs". Now with more
context added....Donovan's ROTFL......I gaurantee it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Having the appearance of "tone" is really just about having less body fat.

really? so is this person exceptionally well "toned"?
http://www.pix.org.uk/showcase/1998/images/image_0002.jpg

It also helps if you're not suffering from an extreme case of muscle atrophy,
but most people who participate in athletics do not have this problem.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Janithor said:

Quoted message said:

"Toning" is [censored]. You will not find a physiology book that uses the
term. Having the appearance of "tone" is really just about having less
body fat.

Really?

Yes, really.

Quoted message said:

You don't think building the muscle underneath would help as
well?

Not a whole lot, no. Put it this way -- endurance athletes tend to look
"toned" and they do not have a whole lot of muscle.

Quoted message said:

I would think there would be a difference between a flat stomach,
and a flat stomach with some ripples underneath?

No, the difference is still bodyfat. You will get the washboard look by losing
body fat.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Take self-defense or similar.

Yeah, I'd like to. Again, I think strength would also help, not just
knowing technique. I mean, come on, a 5'5" female black belt against a
6'2" hulking bruiser with no training - she's going to be have to be
awfully damn good and get some perfect shots to take him down. He can
take her down through brute strength.

One thing you'll learn in self-defense is that she doesn't have to win by a
knockout. It's usually good enough to kick him in the knee and run.
Self-defense is rarely a tournament situation.

Quoted message said:

Again, that's my ultimate goal, to hit both targets, not necessarily to
peak at either. Although I think I'm at the sweet spot in the beginning

OK, that's up to you.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

really? so is this person exceptionally well "toned"?
http://www.pix.org.uk/showcase/1998/images/image_0002.jpg

Where did you find DF's pic?
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

x-no-archive: yes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And so...I'll be 20 lbs lighter but still have weak arms.

_
...but you'll be in shape, right now you are not. it's harder to get
fit with age....and at your age it's more critical that you get fit
sooner rather than later. prioritize getting in shape today. after
you've accomplished that, then go to the gym if you wish.

Right, that's what I said a couple posts ago. You might want to try
actually reading threads you respond to, it kinda helps.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This helps build upper body strength...how?

oh yeah...i forget, it's your life and you're entitled have have
misguided priorities. go to the gym, get bigger, heavier and less fit.
just remember your use of the word "schlub" as you're more likely to
be that guy you characterized......than a fit runner.

Ah. A purist. So, the Navy SEALS, the Rangers, triathletes who's
primary sport is biking or swimming, guys like this who can do a hell of
a lot, they're not fit, because you can run faster than them at long
distances? Whatever floats your boat, dude.

Quoted message said:

quite honestly most of the content you've stated is high questionable
now that you've characterized your age, height & weight. You did say,
"Right now there isn't an ounce of fat on my legs". Now with more
context added....Donovan's ROTFL......I gaurantee it.

Good one. You got me there, bro, you win.

Oi, what a [censored].

Donovan Rebbechi said:

No, the difference is still bodyfat. You will get the washboard look by losing
body fat.

What an ass. This guys head is so far up his ass it's pathetic.
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."