Quantity vs. Quality for the aging runner

"David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

After a two year break, in which I improved my golf game, trained for a
tri, but raced a duathlon, I want to get back into running.

I really can't swim, despite some good training, so that killed the tri a
bit. I loved the biking, and will continue with some of that, and maybe
try another du this summer. But after fooling around with all that, I
realize that I prefer the running, and so want to get back into it. I
ran 10 marathons between May 98 and Oct 2002, with most of them coming in
between 3:15 and 3:20.

My goal is to run a marathon in May as a BQ for 2006. I'll be 50 then,
which buys me an extra 5 minutes (oh, joy). I've been running about 30
mpw for the past 3 months, so have an okay base.

My knees have been acting up for the past 3 years, making odd squishing
noises, and my family doc's advice was to stop running. I had them x-
rayed, and the results were positive, no damage. Both big toe joints
seem to have fused - they no longer bend up at toe-off, and there is some
swelling of the joint. I'm guessing arthritis. My lower and upper back
ache most of the time, possibly aggravated by 65 rounds of golf and a lot
of practice last summer.

So my question to the other "experienced" runners here is "How to train
most effectively, while avoiding injury".

My guess is that I'm going to have to increase quality - leave out some
of the junk runs that up the weekly mileage, and focus on quality runs.
Currently I'm incorporating some nice smooth hills at constant effort,
not hard, plus a weekly 1km timed loop in the middle of an easy run.
These are designed to add a little strengthening and speed while still in
an endurance-building phase. I think I should be going into a
strengthening phase soon. And I think LSD runs are essential to success
at distance, as well as helping shed some pounds between now and May.

So I'm thinking of the following general principles

1) Increase weekly mileage up to 50 mpw over the next 6 weeks.

2) Have an increasing long LSD each week (alternating with
shorter ones once they get to be ~ 3 hrs.)

3) Add one tempo run per week (QED with running club on Wed.
nights - choice of 6mi or 9mi routes).

4) Add one Quality run per week - hill reps for about 4-5 weeks,
then intervals for the following 4-5 weeks.

5) Two or three weeks of tapering, with focus on speed sharpening
and declining mileage (I consider myself an expert taperer, it's the only
part of the program I'm always able to stick to).

6) One bike ride per week as cross training - probably 60 - 90 km
-not too fast.

Any thoughts, feedback, suggestions?

Hi Dave, long time no see. :-)

One of my close friends is 54 and runs mid 17's for 5k. We did
the Mississauga Half Marathon last year and he made it to the
tape in sub 1:20.

The majority of his training is on the stationary or recumbent
bike. He goes maybe 45 min - 1 hour almost every day. This
is usually at 'easy run' HR, and speeding up to lactate threshold
at the end is often part of the program. He keeps cadence at
about 100.

Once a week he does a 10 mile run at around lactate threshold
pace. No speedwork. Sometimes he'll do a moderately fast 5k
on the treadmill the day before a race.

He recently added a pretty decent amount of stair-climbing
machine set to his sessions, to go alng with the bike (part of
same workout).

Finally, he does a lot of abdominal work and stretching, always
after the session, or early in the morning on it's own.

His reasoning is that he keeps in excellent aerobic shabe while
keeping injury potential at a very low level. His competitors in
his AG are all getting injured, mostly because they still train like
they did at 30 or 40. He knows he could get a little faster with
some speedwork and stuff, but why fix what's not broke? He
enjoys not really peaking but just being very fit all year long.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

<questions snipped>

Quoted message said:

Hi Dave, long time no see. :-)

One of my close friends is 54 and runs mid 17's for 5k. We did
the Mississauga Half Marathon last year and he made it to the
tape in sub 1:20.

The majority of his training is on the stationary or recumbent
bike. He goes maybe 45 min - 1 hour almost every day. This
is usually at 'easy run' HR, and speeding up to lactate threshold
at the end is often part of the program. He keeps cadence at
about 100.

Once a week he does a 10 mile run at around lactate threshold
pace. No speedwork. Sometimes he'll do a moderately fast 5k
on the treadmill the day before a race.

He recently added a pretty decent amount of stair-climbing
machine set to his sessions, to go alng with the bike (part of
same workout).

Finally, he does a lot of abdominal work and stretching, always
after the session, or early in the morning on it's own.

His reasoning is that he keeps in excellent aerobic shabe while
keeping injury potential at a very low level. His competitors in
his AG are all getting injured, mostly because they still train like
they did at 30 or 40. He knows he could get a little faster with
some speedwork and stuff, but why fix what's not broke? He
enjoys not really peaking but just being very fit all year long.

cheers,

Hi David

Glad to hear from you.

Thanks for all the excellent ideas. Exactly what I was looking for.

Your friend is both older and faster than me, so well worth paying
attention to.

I think I'll add some more biking in as cardio, and maybe really work on
the LT runs. This seems like a good way to keep mileage down. But I
think I'll need the LSD's as well just to get the wonderful feeling of
shuffling along for >3 hrs burned back into the bones.

I've got a program of abdomimal work (abominable?) every morning, and I
really notice the difference in terms of how my massive gut feels, but
also I remember that they are used more, the faster you run. The fast
1km loops brought that back.

I'm going to avoid the stair stepper, it seems to aggravate whatever is
wrong with my knees.

All changes will have to start tomorrow though, 'cause I'd planned on a
nice 75 minute hilly run (up and down the hills on Hoggs Hollow, going in
all directions), and it's relatively warm and absolutely sunny out.

So, are we going to see you at Mississauga this year? Last I lurked
here, I think you were targeting ATB as your big spring race. I may get
there, but only as a training run.

dh

"David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After a two year break, in which I improved my golf game, trained for a
tri, but raced a duathlon, I want to get back into running.

'Want' and 'succeed' may be two different things...

Quoted message said:

My goal is to run a marathon in May as a BQ for 2006. I'll be 50 then,
which buys me an extra 5 minutes (oh, joy). I've been running about 30
mpw for the past 3 months, so have an okay base.

Y'think? I don't.

Quoted message said:

My knees have been acting up for the past 3 years, making odd squishing
noises, and my family doc's advice was to stop running. I had them x-
rayed, and the results were positive, no damage. Both big toe joints
seem to have fused - they no longer bend up at toe-off, and there is some
swelling of the joint. I'm guessing arthritis. My lower and upper back
ache most of the time, possibly aggravated by 65 rounds of golf and a lot
of practice last summer.
So my question to the other "experienced" runners here is "How to train
most effectively, while avoiding injury".

As an ex-runner you should be able to answer this question yourself.
You've detailed the early signs of physical problems in a range of areas
specific to running, you're 50, and you ask advice on racing again? Why do
the words 'man battling with his mid-life crisis' keep ringing in my ears?

David, you MAY be lucky and able to regain some of your previous form. You
MAY be able to run a marathon in May. You MAY even reach your Boston
qualifying target. But I'm willing to wager the contents of one of my
smaller bank accounts that, in so doing, you'll incur an injury or two that
will make your running life a misery and possibly knock you out of the sport
for good.

Of course, you may be willing to risk a long term run-for-fitness-and-health
future in order to achieve your ambition. If so, follow the twits (that
would be SW's) advice. I wish you luck. Alternatively, you could take a
real world view and decide to *love* your body and structure your training
accordingly.

There comes a time in everyone's life when you have to get real. I think
yours is staring you in the face. Perhaps it would be prudent not to try
and stare this particular demon down?

Roger.

"David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm going to avoid the stair stepper, it seems to aggravate whatever is
wrong with my knees.

Have you tried some targeted knee-area-strengthening exercises, such as
those that might be prescribed by a physical therapist?
I had a knee problem, got some p.t. & direction/education & it really
helped.
bj

"David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Your friend is both older and faster than me, so well worth paying
attention to.

I think he really is a great of example of 'slow and steady wins
the race', even though he is anything but slow! It's obviously
a lot harder to get back to peak shape after each layoff as you
get older. There's something to be said about consistency, for
sure.

Motivation is a key factor as well. He is a bona-fide class 'a'
type, logging his calories burned and so on, but I think you have
to be a bit compulsive to be a good athlete, in general.

Quoted message said:

So, are we going to see you at Mississauga this year? Last I lurked
here, I think you were targeting ATB as your big spring race. I may get
there, but only as a training run.

Yes, Mississauga was exactly six weeks after my appendix
ruptured at the Bay. I didn't get much training in but still ran
a very decent 1:19:03 - may it was a weird taper effect.

I don't know if I will be doing the full, by I might do the half
again. It is getting very hard for me to train recently; I have
blown a couple weeks already. My own race series (see the
link in my sig) is really taking up every waking minute of my
time already and it's only February. We have a booth at the
Bay expo - if you are running it perhaps you could visit.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

David,
I think your body is giving you a few hints. There is lots of room
between playing golf on the weekends training for a fast marathon. I
am in a somewhat similar situation where at 47 I am getting some hints.
After doing triathlon for about 7 years I decided that I wanted to
qualify for Boston. I ran more, biked and
swam less. I made my time but won't be running there this year. My
knees have not recovered from that last marathon. So I am back in the
pool and on the bike but little to no running until my knees are fully
recovered. It is funny how things come full circle.

My personal decision is that Boston will be my last marathon 2006 not
2005 and if my body says no, so be it. I would rather do 5Ks and 10Ks
rather than be out of the sport altogether. Give triathlon another
shot, unless you are shooting for the top 10% your swimming will not
matter that much. I am a BOP swimmer and a MOP finisher. It works for
me.

Sincerely,

Steve W.

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My knees have been acting up for the past 3 years, making odd squishing
noises, and my family doc's advice was to stop running. I had them x-
rayed, and the results were positive, no damage. Both big toe joints
seem to have fused - they no longer bend up at toe-off, and there is some
swelling of the joint. I'm guessing arthritis. My lower and upper back
ache most of the time, possibly aggravated by 65 rounds of golf and a lot
of practice last summer.

If I were you, I'd get into trail running. Much easier on the bod. A fast
marathon on bad knees on pavement at 50 is not a smart move, imo. If your
knees somehow get better, I'd feel more sanguine about it.

I'm 53, and ran many, many road races back in the day (2:37 marathon pr).
I've switched almost completely to trail and dirt road running. even though
my knees are fine.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So my question to the other "experienced" runners here is "How to train
most effectively, while avoiding injury".

Hate to be a cassandra, but you *are* injured, imo. The question is, will
this stuff go away as you creak into shape? If not, change plans...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My guess is that I'm going to have to increase quality - leave out some
of the junk runs that up the weekly mileage, and focus on quality runs.

The faster you run, the more force on your joints--it's exponential. Junk
miles with 10-12% speed per week is the way to go if you've got mechanical
problems.

In general your training plan looks fine -- provided you're healthy. Since
you've got *issues* as we say, it sounds too agressive...

Quoted message said:

One of my close friends is 54 and runs mid 17's for 5k. We did
the Mississauga Half Marathon last year and he made it to the
tape in sub 1:20.

This guy has massive talent (85% wava?). Which almost always implies
exceptional bio-mechanical efficiency (and therefore injury resistance). My
guess is that he could break 2:30 when younger.

There's something to his cross-training methodology, for sure, but it's one
thing for a really talented guy to give up a few % of his speed, quite
another for a mere mortal who has to give it his all to qualify for a race.
I don't think 15 miles/week of running, with all the cross training in the
world, will get him there.

-- Dan

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

One of my close friends is 54 and runs mid 17's for 5k. We did
the Mississauga Half Marathon last year and he made it to the
tape in sub 1:20.

This guy has massive talent (85% wava?). Which almost always implies
exceptional bio-mechanical efficiency (and therefore injury resistance).
My guess is that he could break 2:30 when younger.

Nope. He was faster, but not that much faster - unless you mean
he had the ability to do so. That, we'll never know.

Quoted message said:

There's something to his cross-training methodology, for sure, but it's
one thing for a really talented guy to give up a few % of his speed, quite
another for a mere mortal who has to give it his all to qualify for a
race. I don't think 15 miles/week of running, with all the cross training
in the world, will get him there.

Agreed to a point. My friend is talented and genetically gifted.
However I still think that a very high level of endurance and
aerobic fitness can be maintained without actually running much,
and then transferred to a race situation - moreso than people
would like to believe. It's unorthodox and not anyone's first plan,
but for those that can't take the pounding yet still love to race at a
comparably high level it might be the best (better?) option.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

"David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After a two year break, in which I improved my golf game, trained for a
tri, but raced a duathlon, I want to get back into running.

Quoted message said:

So my question to the other "experienced" runners here is "How to train
most effectively, while avoiding injury".

So I'm thinking of the following general principles

1) Increase weekly mileage up to 50 mpw over the next 6 weeks.

David - welcome back and good luck!

With your lingering knee concerns, I would be extra careful about
increasing mileage.
Going from 30 to 50 in 6 weeks might be within the bounds of the "10%" rule,
but
I personally follow Doug's maxim - no more than 5%, and I also incorporate
step-back weeks during mileage buildup. If your main aim is qualifying for
Boston I
would seriously consider pushing off the attempt until the Spring. That
would give you
time for a more gentle build-up and more time to see if you're in shape for
the
BQ attempt.

Anthony.

"Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After a two year break, in which I improved my golf game, trained for a
tri, but raced a duathlon, I want to get back into running.

Quoted message said:

So my question to the other "experienced" runners here is "How to train
most effectively, while avoiding injury".

So I'm thinking of the following general principles

1) Increase weekly mileage up to 50 mpw over the next 6 weeks.

David - welcome back and good luck!

With your lingering knee concerns, I would be extra careful about
increasing mileage.
Going from 30 to 50 in 6 weeks might be within the bounds of the "10%"
rule, but
I personally follow Doug's maxim - no more than 5%, and I also incorporate
step-back weeks during mileage buildup. If your main aim is qualifying
for Boston I
would seriously consider pushing off the attempt until the Spring. That
would give you
time for a more gentle build-up and more time to see if you're in shape
for the
BQ attempt.

Anthony.

Oops - even though I live in Israel, my Australian roots still make me think
of September/October as Spring - I meant Autumn - or Fall if you prefer...

SwStudio said:

Agreed to a point. My friend is talented and genetically gifted.
However I still think that a very high level of endurance and
aerobic fitness can be maintained without actually running much,
and then transferred to a race situation - moreso than people
would like to believe.

(1) Central adaptions like stroke volume are general, but:
(2) Cell level adaptions are specific. (can give a ref if anyone cares)
(3) Obviously, neuromucular adaptions are specific.

Basic observations: I've seen people do serious cycling and yet they're
pretty lousy runners until they do some specific training. Probably this is
mostly to do with (3) -- they basically don't know how to run until they've
done a few hundred (or maybe a few thousand ?) miles. But I think (2) is an
important factor also -- and it is a *specific*, *volume* effect.

Quoted message said:

It's unorthodox and not anyone's first plan,
but for those that can't take the pounding yet still love to race at a

One option is to make the "pounding" less so, by finding soft training
surfaces, doing recovery runs at an easier pace, focusing more on
time-on-feet and less on milage, etc.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

David Harris said:

My guess is that I'm going to have to increase quality - leave out some
of the junk runs that up the weekly mileage, and focus on quality runs.

This in general seems questionable -- because the so-called "quality" stuff
is usually the highest risk.

But doing a tempo and a hill session once a week off 50mpw isn't excessive.

I think you get rapidly diminishing returns after 2 speed workouts a week,
and you will burn out really quickly if you try to regularly do 3 for too
long. So I'd suggest cap it at 2.

Once you're doing a tempo and a hill session, the other stuff (the single
1km rep and the "smooth hills"😉 aren't going to add much. If you're having
boredom issues and just like to run fast, do some easy strides. They are
a good way to make workouts fun without adding much risk.

About this hills: don't go ballistic on them, that's asking for injury.
People get hurt all the time by blasting up hills. Think of them as
"uphill strides". Think form drill. If you want to bust your balls on
a workout, do it on something besides hills (long intervals for example)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

(2) Cell level adaptions are specific. (can give a ref if anyone

cares)

Quoted message said:

(3) Obviously, neuromuscular adaptions are specific.

Could it still be that someone who has in his earlier (but not distant)
running life arrived at a rather high level of such adaption can
maintain a fairly adequate level with a sufficient amount of aerobic
and a surprisingly small amount of specific training? Anecdotal
evidence of runners who switch to cycling or XC skiing for an extended
period and return to running would suggest that it is so.

OTOH this wouldn´t be of any help for those whose current level of
adaption is inadequate...

Quoted message said:

Basic observations: I've seen people do serious cycling and yet

they're

Quoted message said:

pretty lousy runners until they do some specific training. Probably

this is

Quoted message said:

mostly to do with (3) -- they basically don't know how to run until

they've

Quoted message said:

done a few hundred (or maybe a few thousand ?) miles. But I think (2)

is an

Quoted message said:

important factor also -- and it is a *specific*, *volume* effect.

There are two kinds of XC skiers: those who run during the summer and
those who rollerskare or -ski. For both groups running in winter is
limited to easy recovery runs, yet the skiers in the first group are
capable of doing quite decently or better in cross-country or
orienteering races in the spring. (Or, on a less elite level, they are
capable of hopping in and being AG competitive in a winter run series.)

(XC skiing is perhaps a bit more like running than cycling, but it´s
still neuromuscularly very different.)

Quoted message said:

One option is to make the "pounding" less so, by finding soft

training

Quoted message said:

surfaces, doing recovery runs at an easier pace, focusing more on
time-on-feet and less on milage, etc.

Yes, but it won´t probably hurt too much to replace one or even two
"normal" runs per week with cycling, aquarunning, hillwalking,
kickbiking, rollerskating, on a recumbent, etc. One could occasionally
replace a hard run with a spinning session as well.

But this may be something that the thirty+ crowd cannot yet fully
appreciate:-)

Anders

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If I were you, I'd get into trail running. Much easier on the bod. A
fast marathon on bad knees on pavement at 50 is not a smart move, imo.
If your knees somehow get better, I'd feel more sanguine about it.

All you plans are really moot until you get your hands around the knee
problems. An X-ray doesn't tell you enough. I would get a referral(if
needed) and get to a sports orthopedic vet to see what is really
lurking in your joints be it bone scan, MRI etc.

I tucked this comment here because I agree with Dan, the roads are too
unforgiving, find some trails if possible. Beantown is a great race but
not if the effort takes out you knees.

-Doug 59++ and going strong on trails(when I can get to them)

-Doug Freese

anders said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

(2) Cell level adaptions are specific. (can give a ref if anyone
cares) (3) Obviously, neuromuscular adaptions are specific.

Could it still be that someone who has in his earlier (but not distant)
running life arrived at a rather high level of such adaption can
maintain a fairly adequate level with a sufficient amount of aerobic
and a surprisingly small amount of specific training? Anecdotal

Possibly. Maintenance is much easier than improvement. People I know who've
come off injury get their fitness back fairly quickly, even people who have
several years of experience.

Quoted message said:

evidence of runners who switch to cycling or XC skiing for an extended
period and return to running would suggest that it is so.

OTOH this wouldn´t be of any help for those whose current level of
adaption is inadequate...

It also doesn't help very much if you want too actually get better and not
just maintain a level of fitness that facilitates a quick comeback. I suppose
it might help somewhat from a periodisation standpoint, but that's about it.

Quoted message said:

There are two kinds of XC skiers: those who run during the summer and
those who rollerskare or -ski. For both groups running in winter is
limited to easy recovery runs, yet the skiers in the first group are
capable of doing quite decently or better in cross-country or
orienteering races in the spring. (Or, on a less elite level, they are
capable of hopping in and being AG competitive in a winter run series.)

I think it's hard to interpret this. A lot of the top local runners could
run quite a lot slower and still win awards on a regular basis. Matt Downin
wins the local races running at about his marathon race pace.

Quoted message said:

Yes, but it won´t probably hurt too much to replace one or even two
"normal" runs per week with cycling, aquarunning, hillwalking,
kickbiking, rollerskating, on a recumbent, etc. One could occasionally
replace a hard run with a spinning session as well.

I don't see anything wrong with reducing volume and doing more cross
training. But I don't think doing as much speed work as a 21 year old is
terribly smart if you are so aged and crippled that you can't do reasonable
milage. In other words, cut back the base and you probably should cut
back the speed work too. Doing two 12x400m workouts and a hill session
on 20mpw, because you're "too old" to do the other 50 miles of base work
is just asking for trouble (actually, that much speed is pushing it for
a young guy on 80mpw)

I just haven't seen much evidence that old people can do more
speedwork (relatively) than young people. It seems everyone wants to find
an excuse to classify themselves as an exception to "speed as a percentage
of base milage" guidelines. This desire has more to do with impatience
than any sound training principle.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

SwStudio said:

Agreed to a point. My friend is talented and genetically gifted.
However I still think that a very high level of endurance and
aerobic fitness can be maintained without actually running much,
and then transferred to a race situation - moreso than people
would like to believe.

(1) Central adaptions like stroke volume are general, but:
(2) Cell level adaptions are specific. (can give a ref if anyone cares)
(3) Obviously, neuromucular adaptions are specific.

Basic observations: I've seen people do serious cycling and yet they're
pretty lousy runners until they do some specific training.

Well., I never said he didn't have a running history. It's not
like he's been cycling all his life and decided to run some races
one day. He was a runner, he logged a lot of miles, got older
and more injured, and changed his training.

It other words he was a good runner who maintained fitness
through other means.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Anthony said:

"David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After a two year break, in which I improved my golf game, trained for a
tri, but raced a duathlon, I want to get back into running.

Quoted message said:

So my question to the other "experienced" runners here is "How to train
most effectively, while avoiding injury".

So I'm thinking of the following general principles

1) Increase weekly mileage up to 50 mpw over the next 6 weeks.

David - welcome back and good luck!

With your lingering knee concerns, I would be extra careful about
increasing mileage.
Going from 30 to 50 in 6 weeks might be within the bounds of the "10%" rule,
but

Doh! I missed the part about the 30mpw base. Good comments (both you and Rog).
I'm going to bash the 10% rule in this post, but I'm not knocking your post,
as you clearly understand the problems with this so-called "rule".

(1) the "10% rule" is BS. It's both too restrictive, and too permissive.

It's too restrictive, because, for example, there's nothing wrong with a 25
mile week followed by a 30 mile week. 5 miles or so week-to-week variation is
fine. What would be a problem is 25,30,35,40,45,50 or something like that.

Likewise, it's too permissive because it allows a twofold increase in milage
over 8 weeks.

(2) absolutely agree with Rog that 30mpw isn't much of a base. I think a lot of
people set themself up for a fall in precisely this manner -- they do a very
half-assed training program (sorry, 1x1km, some easy hills and 30mpw isn't
just not on the same level as what David H is planning to jump into) and then
they suddenly leap into "marathon training" which includes twice as much volume
as they were doing, long runs, and serious speed work. These things are either
added all at once, or in rapid succession, so that one week they're putzing
around at 30mpw with some pretend speed work, and 10 weeks later, they're doing
50 miles with long runs with two hard speed sessions in addition to the pretend
speed work they were doing before.

A rapid buildup from 30 to 50 may be fine if you're used to doing 50. For
example, I could do (probably should have done) 3 weeks at 40 after a marathon
and get back up to 70 really quickly, but that has absolutely nothing to do
with "the 10% rule", it's because I've been averaging 60 or so over a period
of a year .

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

anders said:

There are two kinds of XC skiers: those who run during the summer and
those who rollerskare or -ski. For both groups running in winter is
limited to easy recovery runs, yet the skiers in the first group are
capable of doing quite decently or better in cross-country or
orienteering races in the spring.

Over here, many of our top mtn runners are also our top nordic skiers -
Olympic level, past and present (most recent). I believe the ones that
don't ski may do other types of backcountry exercise, like
mountaineering or whatever.

Many trails still have snow or are in breakup (bottomless mud, where
you'll damage the trails if you use them for warm weather types 😉 )
until late April. Trail races start in May (May 1 this year), although
the 1st real mtn race isn't until mid June. You have to get the hill
work in with snow on the ground. On our winter ultras (choice of ski,
bike, or run on race day), a few people have done them all 3 ways (not
sure of competitiveness, but who cares on winter ultras).

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Over here,

Dot, do you have to reference EVERY comment you make to Alaska?

Roger.