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Quantity vs. Quality for the aging runner

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
1 February 2005
Last activity
6 February 2005
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David Harris
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  1. "bj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:tdQLd.643$uc.519@trnddc02:

    Quoted message said:

    "David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I'm going to avoid the stair stepper, it seems to aggravate whatever is
    wrong with my knees.

    Have you tried some targeted knee-area-strengthening exercises, such as
    those that might be prescribed by a physical therapist?
    I had a knee problem, got some p.t. & direction/education & it really
    helped.
    bj


    I haven't yet, but I intend to. Of course, I've intended to for about 20
    months now, but perhaps your post will be the straw that finally breaks the
    back of my procrastination!

    dh

  2. "David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    After a two year break, in which I improved my golf game, trained for a
    tri, but raced a duathlon, I want to get back into running.


    <snip>

    Check out www.powerrunning.com. This guy has some interesting thoughts on
    running training for people with average talent.

    Jim Johnson

  3. Tony said:

    Sure, I understand the difference in injury types, but I think there's value
    in looking at it that way, and I do think the basic stress on the skeleton
    and connective tissue is additive.

    It's not, because the stresses are different.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The old guy is every bit as exposed to injury as the young guy, and perhaps
    more so in some ways (because a weaker system is exposed to the same
    stress --
    unless those 6 units are preceded by some sort of adaption)

    The stress is probably frequent enough that the body won't weaken as you
    suggest.

    Look, one of the leading causes of injury is going overboard on speedwork
    without a solid base. This even happens to young guys all the time. You
    can pontificate all you like, I've seen people get injured, and I've been
    one of those people. I have less problems at 70mpw than I previously did
    with similar speedwork on 20mpw.

    Quoted message said:

    I think the guy is on to something and is getting good results
    without getting injured.

    I think he's onto something in choosing the right parents. He's obviously
    very talented.

    Quoted message said:

    Would you have him do as his comrades do and get
    injured consistently?

    Can't comment without knowing exactly what his comrades do. I do know
    several masters competitors who don't always get injured.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, speedwork puts you at more risk of injury, but unlike you I do think
    the basic stress is additive in the sense that speedwork will stress the
    connective tissue in particular greatly, so one without the same load
    capacity of youth would be well served to do non-impact activities in the
    time window surrounding it.

    I've already tried the nothing-but-speedwork approach, and seen others try
    it. It's a fast track to injury. Any decent coach will tell you that.
    See Jack Daniels, Pfitzinger, Glover, etc etc etc. No reputable coach will
    recommend an all-speedwork no-base program.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  4. Jim Johnson said:


    "David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    After a two year break, in which I improved my golf game, trained for a
    tri, but raced a duathlon, I want to get back into running.


    <snip>

    Check out www.powerrunning.com. This guy has some interesting thoughts on
    running training for people with average talent.

    Bah! Gibbens again. Sam posted on this guy, basically saying that he
    misrepresents the research, and that was the impression I had on inspecting
    that website.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  5. Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony said:

    Sure, I understand the difference in injury types, but I think there's


    value

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in looking at it that way, and I do think the basic stress on the


    skeleton

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and connective tissue is additive.

    It's not, because the stresses are different.

    The stress of speed work is greater, and it places acute forces on
    everything, but how is it fundamentally different?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The old guy is every bit as exposed to injury as the young guy, and


    perhaps

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more so in some ways (because a weaker system is exposed to the same
    stress --
    unless those 6 units are preceded by some sort of adaption)

    The stress is probably frequent enough that the body won't weaken as you
    suggest.

    Look, one of the leading causes of injury is going overboard on speedwork
    without a solid base. This even happens to young guys all the time. You
    can pontificate all you like, I've seen people get injured, and I've been
    one of those people. I have less problems at 70mpw than I previously did
    with similar speedwork on 20mpw.

    We're talking about a guy who probably had many years of higher mileage, so
    his adaptations - muscular, energy-supply, and skeletal/connective - had
    clearly already transformed his body into something different, unlike your
    personal example (as I recall you've ramped up to higher mileage more
    recently). Because his body was adapted what happened to you wouldn't happen
    to him in the same way. Exactly what does it take to maintain adapatations
    of various kinds? I don't think you can answer that, and neither can I, but
    it's well worth considering real examples like David's friend.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I think the guy is on to something and is getting good results
    without getting injured.

    I think he's onto something in choosing the right parents. He's obviously
    very talented.

    Quoted message said:

    Would you have him do as his comrades do and get
    injured consistently?

    Can't comment without knowing exactly what his comrades do. I do know
    several masters competitors who don't always get injured.

    I don't know the statistics on older competative runners and injury rates,
    but would be interested if you have a reference.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yes, speedwork puts you at more risk of injury, but unlike you I do think
    the basic stress is additive in the sense that speedwork will stress the
    connective tissue in particular greatly, so one without the same load
    capacity of youth would be well served to do non-impact activities in the
    time window surrounding it.

    I've already tried the nothing-but-speedwork approach, and seen others try
    it. It's a fast track to injury. Any decent coach will tell you that.
    See Jack Daniels, Pfitzinger, Glover, etc etc etc. No reputable coach will
    recommend an all-speedwork no-base program.

    Again, you tried it without adaptations gained over years of more intense
    training. There are notable examples of experienced runners backing off on
    quantity while still doing quality for various reasons, and they seem to
    experience success with less injury.

    While I've come to agree with the constant-stress approach to improve and
    build all kinds of adaptations over time, I don't agree with you that all
    others who take a quality approach are doing it because they're lazy or
    looking for excuses. In various situations it seems to work quite well,
    particularly for aging experienced runners.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  6. Tony said:
    Quoted message said:

    It's not, because the stresses are different.

    The stress of speed work is greater, and it places acute forces on
    everything, but how is it fundamentally different?

    Well, pretty much everything.

    (1) speed work puts more stress on soft tissue. Stress fractures are
    caused by repetitive stress over a long period of time -- very volume
    specific. But soft tissue is more likely to be hurt by speed work (that
    or *very rapid* changes in volume). I don't know why this is. I do know
    that if you've got a soft tissue injury, it blows up really badly after
    a race. I also know that DOMS which is thought to be caused by soft tissue
    (connective and/or muscular damage) is more likely to follow a hard speed
    workout than a week of high volume.

    (2) Different muscle groups. You are more likely to hurt your achilles
    tendon or calves doing speed work (because it is stressed heavily during
    faster running), but some hip/knee problems related to stabilisers are more
    likely to be caused by repetitive motion (because the degree of recruitment
    is not substantially greater during faster running).

    Quoted message said:

    We're talking about a guy who probably had many years of higher mileage, so
    his adaptations - muscular, energy-supply, and skeletal/connective - had
    clearly already transformed his body into something different, unlike your

    There is plenty of evidence that detraining takes place fairly quickly.

    In this particular case, we've already established that the guy was
    exceptionally talented. I'm sceptical about extrapolating from him to the
    general population.

    DO we know that this guy really had a big base then backed off ?

    Quoted message said:

    Again, you tried it without adaptations gained over years of more intense
    training. There are notable examples of experienced runners backing off on
    quantity while still doing quality for various reasons, and they seem to
    experience success with less injury.

    One example of an exceptionally talented runner.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  7. "Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message \>

    Quoted message said:

    Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:

    On 2005-02-03, Tony <[email hidden]> wrote:
    Look, one of the leading causes of injury is going overboard on speedwork
    without a solid base. This even happens to young guys all the time. You
    can pontificate all you like, I've seen people get injured, and I've been
    one of those people. I have less problems at 70mpw than I previously did
    with similar speedwork on 20mpw.

    We're talking about a guy who probably had many years of higher mileage,
    so
    his adaptations - muscular, energy-supply, and skeletal/connective - had
    clearly already transformed his body into something different, unlike your
    personal example (as I recall you've ramped up to higher mileage more
    recently). Because his body was adapted what happened to you wouldn't
    happen
    to him in the same way. Exactly what does it take to maintain adapatations
    of various kinds? I don't think you can answer that, and neither can I,
    but
    it's well worth considering real examples like David's friend.

    Exactly, my friend was a runner for years. Not a crazy-high mileage
    elite runner, either. But he ran for many years, and this is the key
    here... he has made his adaptations, developed an efficient form.

    The weekly run serves to maintain that at a level that suits him fine.
    The daily solid cardio on the bike keeps him in aerobic shape same
    as you or I going for a run.

    The argument is not whether he can be his best this way - he can't.
    However, he runs at a very high level all year long without much
    injury (extremely minor stuff).

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON)
    www.allfalldown.org
    www.absolutelyaccurate.com

  8. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    (1) the "10% rule" is BS. It's both too restrictive, and too permissive.

    It's too restrictive, because, for example, there's nothing wrong with a
    25
    mile week followed by a 30 mile week. 5 miles or so week-to-week variation
    is
    fine. What would be a problem is 25,30,35,40,45,50 or something like that.

    I agree - I violate the "rule" all the time, but get injured moreso
    from extended periods of ramping. I actually think it's a good
    training tactic to occasionally throw in a very high mileage week
    in, if followed by an appropriate easy week.

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON)
    www.allfalldown.org
    www.absolutelyaccurate.com

  9. Donovan Rebbechi said:

    I think it's hard to interpret this. A lot of the top local runners


    could

    Quoted message said:

    run quite a lot slower and still win awards on a regular basis. Matt


    Downin

    Quoted message said:

    wins the local races running at about his marathon race pace.

    If those AG skier/runners were that much better athletically than their
    running peers in those races, they should presumably do a lot better in
    summer or autumn when they´ve done more specific training etc, but
    they don´t: when I look at the results, their winter times in the 10K
    appear to be about 1-1.5min slower. (OK, I didn´t actually look, this
    is just my impression...)

    I´m suggesting that if your goal is not to shave that minute off your
    10K time and if your marathon goal isn´t so ambitious that you cannot
    afford to be 5-6 minutes slower than you´d at best be with a larger
    volume of specific training - and I assert that for an average healthy
    male, a BQ shouldn´t be that - you´d probably be much better off with
    a more well-rounded program. Especially when you´re an older gent and
    there is due concern for ending up injured.

    (Of course the elite XC skiers who tease runners in the cross-country
    races are better trained and genetically more gifted than th runners
    whom they fight for positions with and they could run faster still if
    they concentrated on running,
    but the point which I was hoping to make - and which I think can be
    made - was
    that they can race at a remarkably high level with very little
    running.)

    Quoted message said:

    I don't see anything wrong with reducing volume and doing more cross
    training. But I don't think doing as much speed work as a 21 year old


    is

    Quoted message said:

    terribly smart if you are so aged and crippled that you can't do


    reasonable

    Quoted message said:

    milage. In other words, cut back the base and you probably should cut
    back the speed work too. Doing two 12x400m workouts and a hill


    session

    Quoted message said:

    on 20mpw, because you're "too old" to do the other 50 miles of base


    work

    Quoted message said:

    is just asking for trouble (actually, that much speed is pushing it


    for

    Quoted message said:

    a young guy on 80mpw)

    Agreed - if anything, I would advocate caution with speed and tempo
    work for the older runner: forget the old Tuesday-Thursday rhythm, have
    two easy days between hard sessions; forget the old interval sessions,
    limit yourself to 80% of the old net distance; forget racing every
    weekend, have two easy days after a race and three before one. (This
    set of advice comes from a "serious" German running magazine,
    Spiridon.)

    Anders

  10. SwStudio said:

    "Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message \>

    Quoted message said:

    Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:

    On 2005-02-03, Tony <[email hidden]> wrote:
    Look, one of the leading causes of injury is going overboard on speedwork
    without a solid base. This even happens to young guys all the time. You
    can pontificate all you like, I've seen people get injured, and I've been
    one of those people. I have less problems at 70mpw than I previously did
    with similar speedwork on 20mpw.

    We're talking about a guy who probably had many years of higher mileage,
    so
    his adaptations - muscular, energy-supply, and skeletal/connective - had
    clearly already transformed his body into something different, unlike your
    personal example (as I recall you've ramped up to higher mileage more
    recently). Because his body was adapted what happened to you wouldn't
    happen
    to him in the same way. Exactly what does it take to maintain adapatations
    of various kinds? I don't think you can answer that, and neither can I,
    but
    it's well worth considering real examples like David's friend.

    Exactly, my friend was a runner for years. Not a crazy-high mileage
    elite runner, either. But he ran for many years, and this is the key
    here... he has made his adaptations, developed an efficient form.

    The weekly run serves to maintain that at a level that suits him fine.
    The daily solid cardio on the bike keeps him in aerobic shape same
    as you or I going for a run.

    The argument is not whether he can be his best this way - he can't.
    However, he runs at a very high level all year long without much
    injury (extremely minor stuff).

    Since what Tony and I have diverged into the realm of speed work --
    what sort of speed work is he doing ?

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  11. Quoted message said:

    The stress of speed work is greater, and it places acute forces on
    everything, but how is it fundamentally different?

    Is anyone really this stupid?

  12. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Jim Johnson said:


    "David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    After a two year break, in which I improved my golf game, trained for a
    tri, but raced a duathlon, I want to get back into running.


    <snip>

    Check out www.powerrunning.com. This guy has some interesting thoughts on
    running training for people with average talent.

    Bah! Gibbens again. Sam posted on this guy, basically saying that he
    misrepresents the research, and that was the impression I had on
    inspecting
    that website.

    As with any training philosophy thrown out by a coach/trainer/sports
    doctor/etc. it's to be taken with a grain of salt. I do agree with some of
    his thoughts concerning recovery after a marathon and cross training and
    admire him for at least trying to present a different viewpoint. I think
    nowadays people are too quick to blindly copy successful athletes' training
    programs or do some program out of a book without stepping back and really
    thinking about what's best for them and what they're trying to accomplish.
    Listening to your body is more important to me than listening to what some
    coach wrote in a book. As you can see from reading David's posts on his
    friend there's more than one way to skin a cat or run a PR. I once read to
    never copy the training program of a successful runner/cyclist/etc. because
    you don't know if they're successful because of their program or in spite of
    it.

    Jim Johnson

  13. "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    SwStudio said:

    Exactly, my friend was a runner for years. Not a crazy-high mileage
    elite runner, either. But he ran for many years, and this is the key
    here... he has made his adaptations, developed an efficient form.

    The weekly run serves to maintain that at a level that suits him fine.
    The daily solid cardio on the bike keeps him in aerobic shape same
    as you or I going for a run.

    The argument is not whether he can be his best this way - he can't.
    However, he runs at a very high level all year long without much
    injury (extremely minor stuff).

    Since what Tony and I have diverged into the realm of speed work --
    what sort of speed work is he doing ?

    He doesn't do speedwork. Once a week he does a 10 miler.
    He'll warm up for a couple miles and run the rest at or close to
    LT pace, sometimes doing the last mile faster if he feels good.

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON)
    www.allfalldown.org
    www.absolutelyaccurate.com

  14. Gee, a jogger AND a golfer...........the daily double of unlikeability.

  15. Do all agree we
    orbit the Sun in the same direction?

    While not all rotate on their individual axes in the same direction
    all rotate opposite to the other six --
    the leaders are in agree ments as to which way to go. in ?......leo
    the lion.
    in this golf run bike not so much swim is speed.......to L.S.d......espn
    view......
    Say we think of the light in a runners sight of a run..........speed to
    week lsd......best to just be able to train in lifes waists.....
    A views........
    From a point in space above the north pole of Earth, you would see
    all nine planets revolving counterclockwise about our home star. and in
    this rec running discuss group. retrograde
    As for the reversed, or retrograde, spin of runners........scientists
    are divided as to the cause.

    Most subscribe to the theory that early in their running histories,
    these runners were subjected to massive collisions with sized objects,
    so powerful they reversed the runners original direction of rotation --
    and in this case of older running to re running..........

    knocked it almost completely sideways. however,
    the ? = runners train to=
    speed to l.s.d.=

    According to accepted models of general relativity, it is feasible in
    areas of intensely strong gravity for the fabric of local space-time
    geometry to become so severely warped that it folds in on
    itself.......... and "re-connects" to another area in space-time --
    perhaps another, or another place and (town× times.( in our own.
    a×B=C....Ax B==a or +2. home= to start to finish x 2........ to
    home........

    Astrophysicists remain undaunted, however,

    During the past decade, rec running discovered far more runners outside
    our solar system star(sun) and planet(earth) (moon).......
    -- called extra runners -- than are located within it.
    The trio dual.........or
    To swim...... To bike.......To run......
    in this case. golf run bike. hell with swim.....

    runners can not only detect a runners presence, they can deduce a
    lower limit to its mass and distance from its parent reverses., and the
    length of its year.
    Feb 3 2005..11:00 a.m.east. or time plus 5.........5 p.m. juilan's
    time....
    The most successful search method used to date is called the "radial
    velocity" method.
    As a runner is tugged to and fro by a planet's gravitational pull,
    measure a slight shift in the frequency of the runners light. radial
    velocity method.
    espn as the the camera's view on the hill so to peak..over view of
    runner's is. leaders........keep all the $..........many here believe
    this is the way to full achievements.espn views......
    to show what others do and not be seen.....
    There an oxymoron........
    as the leader's here agree......
    I say to challenge this leadership way........
    So.............

    "Astrometry" is another detection method. Its is sometimes
    called positional runaway.
    monomers measure a runners change in position on the sky, induced by
    the gravitational pull of a planet. some might say a (G.P.s.) They can
    use this information to calculate the runners mass and orbit. a×e=c.
    week =Total.....

    If earth running passes directly between a star the sun..... and an
    observer's line of sight, it blocks out a tiny portion of the runners
    light.
    June 8the 2004
    venus transit the sun. look like a little dot.
    a brown broken beer bottle to look at the dot in the sun.
    This so-called "transit method" is used to look for predictable
    variations in this reduction of brightness and to reveal a runners
    presence.as Df once said..... before say. look at moon thru sun.......
    so cool, I made $10.00 bucks. and all rr gave me was. 14". and I said
    look thru a brown broken beer bottle and left work because the streets
    pay more $ then work can..................( SO) can"t live on it
    D.F...........10 bucks is better then 0$......
    and I get audit for 30 years by i.r.s. and back to Sq one agan....zero
    changes......
    $1,240.00 for 2004..... total owe i.rs.. $122.00 sted of $1,850.00 is
    $134.00 total for yar 2004........I am not paying agen.......

    Next week February 7 2005 New moon.
    1 year.....today is:
    February 3, 2005
    The Moon and the star Antares appear close together early tomorrow.

    February 8, 2005
    Draco, the dragon, is an ancient constellation. One of its stars,
    Thuban, marks one of its coils. Fifty centuries ago, Thuban stood at the
    north celestial pole. That made Thuban the North Star. But Earth's polar
    axis shifts, so today, the North Star is Polaris.

    February 8, 2005
    The Moon is "new" at 4:28 p.m. CST add 1 to east......or 4:30 afternoon
    east.... The Moon crosses the imaginary line between Earth and the Sun
    at that moment.
    say 15° till summer.½ N to S sun rotations.so ½+¼=^×¾ to
    fall of golfs views....if sun N to S is 60°× distance^ alot.
    suns up down pull.this new moon=tuesday next week.
    It appears so close to the Sun that it is lost in our star's glare.

    above Polaris, the North Star, but in texas...Uj wears pink
    shorts...........
    F w i heard............
    Unless otherwise specified, viewing times are local time regardless of
    time zone, and are good for the entire Lower 48 states (and, generally,
    for Alaska and Hawaii).
    speed to l.s.d. Oh Yah......dude....

    A fourth possible detection method, called "gravitational improvising,"
    comes from one of Einsteinium insights in his theory of general
    relativity:The improvising to be hads is helps hads. another way to
    greese your nipple and shave your heads.......

    draggggggggggggggggggg defects.
    Gravity bends space. When a planet passes in front of a more-distant
    star, the planet's gravity will behave like a lens to temporarily focus
    light from the star. This should cause a sharp increase in brightness
    and a change in the apparent position of the runners. This method has
    yet to detect any runners of speed and youth.......
    light of sun= ozone feb/march artic temps 2005. or sun glass and
    spt 30 or better on rads efects to run and show skins..

    as to golfs effects to be hads........to funny color clothes in scotts
    skirts view of speeds of marathon.O yah dudes.......3 20
    marathon.......i play golf.......you look so cute in them girl wears
    dude est.......

    So by own views........
    I think a challenge is in order.......
    for thee leaders to ream time.
    all do not reverse to golfs views of a×b=c
    cube=a...........
    more to.dragggggggggggggggg ejects
    a.b.c. is the same no matter were one see it. because. a.u. speed of
    light is not a variable to a older runners new train run.

    He is in the l.s.d. areas.........

    kya weeks. total...........view for year of 2004.......I seen is
    D.F.gold and well me silver.......
    be it bike, run not swim or golf dudes.....
    May marathon oh yahhhhhhhh 3 h 20 ' 0"
    and older's views......
    to me golf is a sports for people in funny wears. and one's who nipples
    ar greeses.........

    or contact.
    e-mail. [email hidden]

  16. [email hidden] (Tom R Wheeler) wrote in news:14589-42024E79-
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Do all agree we
    orbit the Sun in the same direction?


    <...snip...>

    Finally, some concrete advice I can use...

    Thanks Tom!

    dh

  17. Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony said:
    Quoted message said:

    It's not, because the stresses are different.

    The stress of speed work is greater, and it places acute forces on
    everything, but how is it fundamentally different?

    Well, pretty much everything.

    (1) speed work puts more stress on soft tissue. Stress fractures are
    caused by repetitive stress over a long period of time -- very volume
    specific. But soft tissue is more likely to be hurt by speed work (that
    or *very rapid* changes in volume). I don't know why this is. I do know
    that if you've got a soft tissue injury, it blows up really badly after
    a race. I also know that DOMS which is thought to be caused by soft tissue
    (connective and/or muscular damage) is more likely to follow a hard speed
    workout than a week of high volume.

    (2) Different muscle groups. You are more likely to hurt your achilles
    tendon or calves doing speed work (because it is stressed heavily during
    faster running), but some hip/knee problems related to stabilisers are more
    likely to be caused by repetitive motion (because the degree of recruitment
    is not substantially greater during faster running).

    Thanks, since I've been a cross trainer most of my adult life, and since my
    speed work has been of the fartlek and tempo run variety, I've been
    fortunate that I haven't suffered from major injuries. As I've felt soreness
    or pain of one kind or another I've backed off on the running aspect. The
    only time I trained exclusively with higher volume running (8+ hours/week) I
    was in my late teens/early 20s, and after a few years I got a strained
    hamstring, but that's about it.

    -Tony

  18. [email hidden] (Miss Anne Thrope) wrote in news:7619-42023D67-70
    @storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net:

    Quoted message said:

    Gee, a jogger AND a golfer...........the daily double of unlikeability.

    Sorry, I couldn't hear you. I'll have to turn down Celine.

    dh

  19. On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:16:57 -0500, [email hidden] (Tom R

    Wheeler) said:

    Do all agree we
    orbit the Sun in the same direction? 
    e-mail. [email hidden]

    Tom,

    If backwards I run, will I go back in time?

    Malcontent

  20. "David Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "bj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:tdQLd.643$uc.519@trnddc02:

    Quoted message said:

    Have you tried some targeted knee-area-strengthening exercises, such as
    those that might be prescribed by a physical therapist?
    I had a knee problem, got some p.t. & direction/education & it really
    helped.
    bj


    I haven't yet, but I intend to. Of course, I've intended to for about 20
    months now, but perhaps your post will be the straw that finally breaks
    the
    back of my procrastination!

    Good luck with it.
    Having been through a number of p.t. series for various body parts, I can
    tell you it does get to be a bore after a while but really is worth the
    effort.
    bj

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