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Helmets

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UK and Europe
Published
7 September 2004
Last activity
1 October 2004
Original author
Peter Taylor
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164
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  1. In article said:


    The point I was trying to make is that although my body was pretty
    battered, my head must have taken quite a knock & I didn't even
    realise until I looked at my helmet a couple of hours later and I had
    a head & neck ache the next day. Now ok, it might not have resulted in
    a fractured skull (we'll never know)

    Or it might have resulted in nothing at all. You instinctively try to
    protect your head, and it might have not hit the ground at all if you
    hadn't had the extra weight and size of a helmet on it. We'll never
    know.

    We do know that if _everyone_ with a "I would have been much more seriously
    injured without my helmet" was right, either unhelmetted cyclists would have
    died out by now, or helmets actually cause accidents.

  2. Pete White <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Peter Taylor said:

    Sorry to post on this subject again.


    Just to add my tuppence worth (for indeed that is all its worth after
    the worthy reposts above);

    Quoted message said:

    2) If people believe everything the media tells them, then more fool
    them. GMTV are starting a campaign against second hand child seats,
    which seems very noble, until you realise that the biggest supporters of
    said campaign are the manufacturers. Of course they are going to want
    people to go out and buy new child seats instead of second hand ones
    because their profits will drop! GMTV have fell for this one hook, line
    and sinker. I'm not saying that every child seat bought second hand is
    ok or ought but there is a similarity there with the helmet debate
    that I couldn't ignore.

    most child seats rely on energy disappation by deformation of
    polystyrene foam for at least some of their mitigation of injury risk.
    Whilst it is sensible to point out the obvious conflict of interest
    on the part of the manufacturer there is probably a valid point to be
    made. I would not like to judge between the relative risks of
    environmental or traumatic degradation of the foam in the chikd seat
    versus the presumed greater chance of not getting fitting instructions
    with a 2nd hand seat (since there is a high incidence of incorrect
    fitting for all child seats aiui this may not be significant).

    I beleive that the GMTV campaigns on seats are more prompted by the
    iminent change in requirements for booster seats for children <11yro &
    <150cm in cars.

    best wishes
    james

  3. On 13/9/04 5:19 pm, in article
    [email hidden], "james"

    Quoted message said:

    most child seats rely on energy disappation by deformation of
    polystyrene foam for at least some of their mitigation of injury risk.

    Hogwash. They are not intended to dissipate energy but to restrain the child
    in an appropriate position. The only energy they would dissipate in a crash
    is their own momentum as they hit the back of the child.

    ...d

  4. "Peter Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry to post on this subject again.

    Actually since anecdotes provide so much proof of the life saving qualities
    of h...h.....h.......HELMETS.....there, I've said it, I've been digging into
    my own memory for instances I've witnessed, or been close to the source, of
    people banging their noggins' during involuntary dismounts so I can get an
    idea of the danger being protected against.
    And you know what? I can only recall banging my head once when cycling into
    the back of a parked lorry while daydreaming as a kid, during all
    involuntary dismounts/collisions I've landed on everything but my head.
    To cast my research further afield I've thought about all the people I've
    ridden with and all the events I've attended and can only recall one
    instance where a friend head-butted a rock when landing from a fall whilst
    mtbing (and I wasn't present that day so have to rely on witnesses) and
    suffered minor concussion.

    My conclusion from this is that the odds on landing on your head rather than
    outstretched hands, shoulder, arrse, knees, hip etc are slim indeed.
    One of my justifications for wearing one when mtbing is that if nothing else
    it protects my head from overhanging branches, but of course without the
    added height of the h****t I'd probably not collide with them in the first
    place.

    Pete

  5. David Martin said:

    On 13/9/04 5:19 pm, in article
    [email hidden], "james"

    Quoted message said:

    most child seats rely on energy disappation by deformation of
    polystyrene foam for at least some of their mitigation of injury risk.

    Hogwash. They are not intended to dissipate energy but to restrain the child
    in an appropriate position. The only energy they would dissipate in a crash
    is their own momentum as they hit the back of the child.

    Where does the kinetic energy of teh childs head go in a sideways
    collision?

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  6. Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Russell said:

    "John Mallard" <not_me@all> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Russell wrote:

    >
    > Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

    A single statistic?!!!!

    How bloody pointless is that?

    So I am "pointless" am I?

    And stupid, too.

    regards, Ian SMith

    I can see why you don't bother wearing a helmet Ian. It would be a bit
    like putting a knackered hard drive in bubblewrap.

  7. in message <[email hidden]>, Peter B

    (') said:

    To cast my research further afield I've thought about all the
    people I've ridden with and all the events I've attended and can only
    recall one
    instance where a friend head-butted a rock when landing from a fall
    whilst mtbing (and I wasn't present that day so have to rely on
    witnesses) and suffered minor concussion.

    My sister on her fiftieth birthday borrowed a mountain bike and came
    with us on a quick run round Dalbeattie. Being unused to modern hill
    bikes she grabbed a double handful of brakes, sailed over the bars and
    did a perfect faceplant. Her helmet, which did not cover her face, did
    her absolutely no good at all, and as far as I could see did not touch
    the ground. She sustained nasty gravel rash to her nose and chin, but
    completed the run with us.

    It struck me that this was an accident of someone unused to cycling.
    This is not to say it's the less serious for that but I don't believe
    that an experienced cyclist would have gone over the bars like that
    (indeed I've never done so). It also emphasises that in the sort of
    over-the-bars accident that most novices most fear, a helmet doesn't do
    a lot of good.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ;; Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us
    ;; many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.
    ;; Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
    ;; Tom Stoppard, Artist Descending A Staircase

  8. Russell [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    Those are reasonable anecdotes. I hope you don't get flamed!
    I take the point that merely wearing a helmet increases the size and
    therefore the likelyhood of hitting your head. But looking at my
    helmet (no not that one!), its only about 1/2" thick so I can't
    believe it makes a lot of difference.

    Interestingly, you don't apply the same logic to its efficacy. It's
    supposed to help, but "its only about 1/2" thick so I can't believe it
    makes a lot of difference."

    Quoted message said:

    I spent most of my lunchtime
    today trawling the net for some true scientifc research and found
    plenty. I'm not surprised to say I didn't find any scientific evidence
    to support the theory that wearing a helmet increases the risk of
    injury. I know I'm going to get all the [censored] flaming me for this
    but I reckon that's just a dangerous myth. So, come on all you
    anti-helmet brigade. Show me one true scientific study that concludes
    wearing a helmet can increase the risk of injury.

    There isn't one. Simply because there is an ethics barrier between
    scientific research and making people fall off bikes!

    There is however evidence that in all <?> cases of a large (Population
    level) rise in helmet wearing, the rate of injury remained constant or
    rose. So there is evidence that helmets are ineffective, and some
    minimal suggestion that they may in someway increase injury rates.

    So to return the challenge. Provide one true (non-debunked) scientific
    study that concludes wearing a helmet can decrease the risk of serious
    brain injury.

    Quoted message said:

    Here's just one study to the contrary - sorry about the massive link.
    I hope it posts ok.

    I can post many more.
    http://content.nejm.org...

    Surprise everyone, its... RS Thompson, FP Rivara, and DC Thompson.
    Please note the publication date. And that the contested 88% reduction
    in brain injury figure has (AIUI) been denied by the publishers (amongst
    others).

    Jon

  9. Russell said:

    ...
    Well at least somebody managed to reply without insulting me! I was
    baginning to think all the anti-helmet brigade were anti-helmet
    because they had nothing to protect. (I'm sure I'm not the first
    person to notice this).

    Russell

    Russell - sorry insults are inevitable when you volunteer arguments that demonstrate as much cognitive competence as a sheep going baa baa!

    Why some of us who are anti-helmet-hypochondia get to dishing out insults is partly because of who started with the issuing of insults in the first place - yep you guessed it - it was the helmet-hysterics who, through lack of considered and well reasoned argument, resorted to insult to get others to comply with their delusionary thinking. Insult, (apart from compounded fallacies) it seems, is the best argument they can muster.

    The truth of the matter is the reverse of what Russell suggests - it's the helmet-hysterics who don't have much to protect - the shoddy arguments and analysis they present demonstrates all too well that if they are equiped with a cognitive engine upstairs, then it would seem that it has yet to be installed let alone be operational.

    To put it bluntly what passes for reasons is hapless humbug.
    A bunch of sheep going baa baa.

    Roger

  10. Russell said:

    Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote ...

    Quoted message said:
    Russell said:

    "John Mallard" <not_me@all> wrote ...
    > Russell wrote:
    > >
    > > Well if I could interject a single statistic here:
    >
    > A single statistic?!!!!
    > How bloody pointless is that?

    So I am "pointless" am I?

    And stupid, too.

    I can see why you don't bother wearing a helmet Ian. It would be a bit
    like putting a knackered hard drive in bubblewrap.

    It's quite interesting - you can argue rationally with them, and it
    doesn't improve their understanding of the issues - we _still_ get
    endless dodgy anecdotes masquerading as facts or (worse) proofs. If
    you just swear at them (or dismiss them, as above) I think it is no
    less likely to educate, but it feels a whole lot less frustrating.

    I guess the next step is to go completely cold turkey and just stop
    reading teh helmet threads, but there's a strange morbid fascination
    in watching teh slaughter of reason and logic.

    Anyway, Russell, I do wear a helmet, though if the rate of wearing
    goes up much higher, I shall probably have to stop, in order to do my
    bit to stave off compulsion.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  11. Peter Taylor said:

    Sorry to post on this subject again.

    There seems to be an interesting view that riding without a helmet is
    somehow safer than riding with one. And a few people seem to be trying to
    put their kids off wearing helmets for some reason.

    The other day, a mate of mine had quite a big accident while trying a bit
    too hard on a local mountain bike route. His front wheel stopped suddenly,
    and he found the shortest route to ground, landing on his head. Result,
    broken helmet, mild headache, cuts and brusies, but otherwise fine. He is
    in no doubt whatever that the helmet saved him.

    People go to endless lengths to find statistics that "prove" that helmets
    are useless, or even unsafe. Anyone who is in any doubt that helmets are a
    useful aid may care to try to following experiment.

    Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down and run,
    slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low speed accident.
    Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you information you can
    trust.

    Not preaching - just trying to redress the balance.

    Hi Peter,
    You're not preaching at all in my opinion, I'm glad your mate was OK by the way...

    I posted a similar Crash that happened to my wife
    http://www.cyclingforums.com/t176710.html . Thankfully she only suffered some serious abrasions and mild concussion (she landed on the side of her head)....sure, a Helmet can't prevent all kinds of injuries, and I think it's a futile discussion unless we can predict our next accident, which is impossible....it's all a matter of personal choice, unless the Law says otherwise....my choice is to never even get on the saddle without wearing my Helmet...the reason being, it's possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a STATIONARY Bike...

  12. Russell said:

    I can see why you don't bother wearing a helmet Ian. It would be a bit
    like putting a knackered hard drive in bubblewrap.

    Which invites the question why you bother...

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
    University

  13. Russell said:

    I take the point that merely wearing a helmet increases the size and
    therefore the likelyhood of hitting your head. But looking at my
    helmet (no not that one!), its only about 1/2" thick so I can't
    believe it makes a lot of difference.

    You "can't believe?" Why not make an effort? How else do you account for
    the observed fact that helmeted cyclists are more likely to hit their heads?
    Until you can account for inconvenient facts like that, and the documented
    fact that even large-scale increases in helmet use have not resulted in
    reductions in serious or fatal head injuries, then you should be asking not
    asserting.

    Quoted message said:

    I spent most of my lunchtime
    today trawling the net for some true scientifc research and found
    plenty.

    Bully for you. Some of us have spent much of the last year researching the
    issue, and I know at least one person who's been looking into it for much
    longer. He is John Franklin, author of Cyclecraft, the advanced cycling
    manual.

    http://www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/helmets/helmets.html

    And don't forget http://www.cyclehelmets.org and
    http://www.cycle-helmets.com.

    Sooner or later you will realise that the helmet zealots are only giving you
    half the story. If you are smart you will start asking why that is, and
    what the rest of the story might be. Otherwise you might as well go and
    join BeHIT with the rest of the ostriches.

    You will discover along the way that the BMA does not consider helmet
    compulsion to be desirable, a judgement it shares with every single cycling
    body in the UK, not one of which was prepared to support a recent helmet
    bill in Parliament.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm not surprised to say I didn't find any scientific evidence
    to support the theory that wearing a helmet increases the risk of
    injury.

    Hardly a surprise if you were looking at the interventionist medical press.
    Have you read "Trust Us, We're Experts?" The peer-review process used by
    these jornals has a fundamental flaw in that it allows bias to pass
    unchallenged; often the authors choose their own reviewers, and they cite
    each other as "independent" evidence that they are right. James Annan
    recently posted a rather interesting dissection of one of the more egregious
    errors not picked up in peer review, by one of the small number of groups
    who produce the primary evidence. And it does seem to be a small number of
    groups, endlessly rehashing the same arguments and continually failing to
    address the real-world data.

    Interestingly, the editor of Injury Prevention, who is strongly pro-helmet,
    was recently forced to conclude that even children exhibit more risk-taking
    behaviour when wearing helmets. He had previously denied this possibility.
    So there's one reason why the inflated claims of small-scale studies are not
    realised in practice (you will need to know more about risk compensation, of
    course, before this makes much sense, so I recommend you read Risk by John
    Adams, Routledge, 1995, ISBN 1857280687).

    Quoted message said:

    So, come on all you anti-helmet brigade.

    Where? I'm longing to meet this anti-helmet brigade. As I said, I can only
    think of one person I know who is actually anti-helmet.

    Quoted message said:

    Show me one true scientific study that concludes
    wearing a helmet can increase the risk of injury.

    Show me one country where increased helmet wearing rates have been
    associated with reductions in head injury rates. I can show you one where
    helmet use rose from 43% to over 95% in three years with no measurable
    change in head injury rates, leading Scuffham to conclude that helmets
    provide no significant benefit. In the US, head injury rates rose by 40% as
    helmet use rose from 18% to 50%. Does that square with the claims for
    effectiveness you've been finding? Those figures are collected by
    Government agencies, not by researchers aiming to prove a point. You do
    know that most of the published helmet research is designed from the outset
    to prove a pre-existing conclusion, don't you?

    According to figures produced by Cook & Sheikh, reductions in child helmet
    use have resulted in reductions in head injury rates. How could that be?
    Of course, their conlusions said the opposite. Maybe that was because they
    had already decided on the conclusions before getting the data.

    Quoted message said:

    Here's just one study to the contrary - sorry about the massive link.
    I hope it posts ok.

    Amazing - you really think we haven't read TR&T 1989! How much Googling did
    you do on this group before wading in?

    Read this: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1068.html

    The 1989 Thompson, Rivara and Thompson study is widely criticised and even
    the authors acknowledge that the figures are wrong. Guess where my .sig
    comes from?

    On that one study, just ask yourself this: do you genuinely believe that
    helmets are more effective against brain injury than against trivial head
    injuries? The conculsions of TR&T are that helmets prevent 85% of head
    injuries and 88% of brain injury. Head injuries includes cuts and bruises,
    brain injuries start with concussion. Do you know the current thinking on
    the mechanisms of serious and fatal brain injury? Have you heard of the
    term "diffuse axonal injury?"

    You have only scratched the surface thus far.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
    University

  14. Just zis Guy said:

    Russell wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    How else do you
    account for the observed fact that helmeted cyclists are more
    likely to hit their heads?

    Where is that "fact" documented?

    Quoted message said:

    Interestingly, the editor of Injury Prevention, who is strongly
    pro-helmet, was recently forced to conclude that even children
    exhibit more risk-taking behaviour when wearing helmets. He
    had previously denied this possibility.

    Are you referring to the Pless paper
    http://www.pulsus.com/Paeds/09_05/mok_ed.htm

    if so you mis-represent the conclusion which is both more cautious and more
    open that you state:

    "The results indicate that risk compensation may modify the effectiveness of
    PE for children engaged in sports and leisure activities. Conversely, the
    findings also suggest that those wearing PE may be a cautious subgroup"

    BTW, while checking to see if pless was the editor you were referring to, I
    stumbled across this article which has some relevance to the "helmets cause
    injuries" argument. Do you have any direct scientific support for the
    contention that helmet do (as opposed to may theoretically) cause injuries?
    http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/8/4/324?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=helmets&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1095166853287_124&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1&journalcode=injuryprev
    which concludes:

    "This study suggests that, in skiers and snowboarders under 13 years of age,
    helmet use does not increase the incidence of cervical spine injury and does
    reduce the incidence of head injury requiring investigation and/or
    treatment"

    I also stumbled across:

    "If risk compensation is the "real deal" after a recognized group examines
    the evidence systematically, we will accept that the proven benefits of
    bicycle safety helmets are outweighed by the negative effects." [Thompson,
    Thompson, and Rivara]

    Suggesting that the authors are less rabid than some here like to think.

    pk

  15. PK said:
    Quoted message said:

    Interestingly, the editor of Injury Prevention, who is strongly
    pro-helmet, was recently forced to conclude that even children
    exhibit more risk-taking behaviour when wearing helmets. He
    had previously denied this possibility.

    Quoted message said:

    Are you referring to the Pless paper
    http://www.pulsus.com/Paeds/09_05/mok_ed.htm

    Indeed.

    Quoted message said:

    if so you mis-represent the conclusion which is both more cautious
    and more open that you state:

    Not really, it was a big change for Pless who had previously strongly
    disputed the idea that risk compensation behaviour would be exhibited by
    children.

    Quoted message said:

    "If risk compensation is the "real deal" after a recognized group
    examines the evidence systematically, we will accept that the proven
    benefits of bicycle safety helmets are outweighed by the negative
    effects." [Thompson, Thompson, and Rivara]

    The only problem is the type of evidence they are prepared to accept. I
    don't think it is seriously possible to dispute the existence of risk
    compensation, the only question for me has always been the size of the
    effect.

    Quoted message said:

    Suggesting that the authors are less rabid than some here like to
    think.

    You haven't see Diane Thompson's letters lately, then ;-)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
    University

  16. in message <[email hidden]>, PK

    (') said:

    BTW, while checking to see if pless was the editor you were referring
    to, I stumbled across this article which has some relevance to the
    "helmets cause injuries" argument. Do you have any direct scientific
    support for the contention that helmet do (as opposed to may
    theoretically) cause injuries?


    http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/8/4/324?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=helmets&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1095166853287_124&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1&journalcode=injuryprev

    Quoted message said:

    which concludes:

    "This study suggests that, in skiers and snowboarders under 13 years
    of age, helmet use does not increase the incidence of cervical spine
    injury and does reduce the incidence of head injury requiring
    investigation and/or treatment"

    Which has precisely what relevance to adults riding bicycles on the
    road?

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ;; Generally Not Used
    ;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

  17. Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Peter B

    (') said:

    To cast my research further afield I've thought about all the
    people I've ridden with and all the events I've attended and can only
    recall one
    instance where a friend head-butted a rock when landing from a fall
    whilst mtbing (and I wasn't present that day so have to rely on
    witnesses) and suffered minor concussion.

    My sister on her fiftieth birthday borrowed a mountain bike and came
    with us on a quick run round Dalbeattie. Being unused to modern hill
    bikes she grabbed a double handful of brakes, sailed over the bars and
    did a perfect faceplant.

    I'm not sure that I've ever gone over the handlebars on a bike - I've
    had plenty of accidents, but not of that sort. I'm pretty good at
    falling, and do it for about six hours a week at Aikido. Once this
    happened when I tripped on a concrete pavement while running at full
    speed - it would have smashed my face and almost certainly have broken
    something otherwise, but I got away with a little graze on my elbow, and
    I hardly even broke my stride and kept on running. I came up right in
    front of a teenaged boy and I can still see him staring with his jaw
    wide open in disbelief - I think he thought I did it on purpose.

    Anyway, apart from bragging about how clever I am, what I wanted to ask
    was whether anyone who knows how to fall has done so in such a way from
    a bike.

    Daniele
    --
    Apple Juice Ltd
    Chapter Arts Centre
    Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
    Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140

  18. Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Russell [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    (snip) .... I'm not surprised to say I didn't find any scientific evidence
    to support the theory that wearing a helmet increases the risk of
    injury. I know I'm going to get all the [censored] flaming me for this
    but I reckon that's just a dangerous myth. So, come on all you
    anti-helmet brigade. Show me one true scientific study that concludes
    wearing a helmet can increase the risk of injury.

    There isn't one. Simply because there is an ethics barrier between
    scientific research and making people fall off bikes!

    There is however evidence that in all <?> cases of a large (Population
    level) rise in helmet wearing, the rate of injury remained constant or
    rose. So there is evidence that helmets are ineffective, and some
    minimal suggestion that they may in someway increase injury rates.

    So to return the challenge. Provide one true (non-debunked) scientific
    study that concludes wearing a helmet can decrease the risk of serious
    brain injury.

    Quoted message said:

    Here's just one study to the contrary - sorry about the massive link.
    I hope it posts ok.

    I can post many more.
    http://content.nejm.org...

    Surprise everyone, its... RS Thompson, FP Rivara, and DC Thompson.
    Please note the publication date. And that the contested 88% reduction
    in brain injury figure has (AIUI) been denied by the publishers (amongst
    others).

    Also surprising is that this same report provides an indicator, if not
    the conclusion he asks to be provided. In TR&T's study, the community
    control group of children reporting falling off their bikes had a
    helmet wearing rate of 21%. Street surveys in the area (Seattle)
    around the same time indicated a helmet wearing rate among children of
    just over 3%. Rivara was one of the authors of the street survey
    report so the authors of the cited study can't claim ignorance. Why
    didn't they question this descrepancy?

    If we use the street survey as a control group against the community
    group, and apply the methods adopted by TR&T, we can say that wearing
    a helmet increases seven fold the chance of a child falling!

    JFJ.

  19. "D.M. Procida" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:1gk4943.1webhfj1o44hnqN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple->

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, apart from bragging about how clever I am, what I wanted to ask
    was whether anyone who knows how to fall has done so in such a way from
    a bike.

    I like to think I generally fall correctly, that is in a body roll, hence
    (I shouldn't say this) I've managed so long without broken bones and road
    rashed hands but plenty of bruised shoulders, hips and knees :-).
    I know the instructor was quite impressed when I went on a paragliding
    course and we were asked to demonstrate our falling technique.

    Pete

  20. [email hidden] (D.M. Procida)typed

    In the two (admittedly minor) collisions I've had with cars, I've not
    had any injury worthy of a sticking plaster.

    In one (my fault), I was travelling too close to the car in front, in
    light rain and congested traffic. The car ahead braked and so did I, but
    I still ran head-on into its bumper. I fell off the bike, onto my
    (gloved) hands, and knees. An Ever-Ready NightRider jumped out of its
    bracket. I had no grazes etc but noted a half-millimetre blood spot
    under one fingernail. Ten days later, I found my frame had kinked behind
    the lugs on the top tube and the down tube.

    In the other, I was riding on a main road and hit on the left by a car
    emerging from a side street. The car had given way to a car immediately
    ahead of me, but did not notice me despite multiple lights and
    reflectors etc. The car hit my left rear pannier. I slewed all over the
    (thankfully empty) dual carriageway and regained my balance, coming to a
    controlled stop on the central reservation. There was no immediately
    obvious damage to the bicycle, but the front wheel went out of true
    within a short distance. Because I did not come off the bike, I didn't
    get any injury.

    Both of these episodes occurred on the A4020 Uxbridge Road around Hayes
    End, when I was cycling in an easterly direction.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

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