Helmets

Peter B said:

"D.M. Procida" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message
news:1gk4943.1webhfj1o44hnqN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple->

Quoted message said:

Anyway, apart from bragging about how clever I am, what I
wanted to ask was whether anyone who knows how to fall has
done so in such a way from a bike.

I like to think I generally fall correctly, that is in a body
roll, hence (I shouldn't say this) I've managed so long
without broken bones and road rashed hands but plenty of
bruised shoulders, hips and knees :-).
I know the instructor was quite impressed when I went on a
paragliding course and we were asked to demonstrate our
falling technique.

Pete

I went on a paragliding course once. They do make a point of teaching you
how to fall. All the bruises I got that day were from jumping down the hill
and trying to fall without hurting myself. I can't see how this would
transfer to falling off a bike though the main point being keeping the legs
together with the knees slightly bent.
--
Mark

1x1 wheel, 3x2 wheels & 1x3 wheels.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:59:37 +1000, Jaguar27
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

my choice is to never even get
on the saddle without wearing my Helmet...the reason being, it's
possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a
STATIONARY Bike...

That's essentially what they're tested for, of course.

I've been riding for about 30 years and not yet fallen from a
stationary bike, though.

If you're that concerned you absolutely must get a recumbent, since
the chances of hitting your head are massively lower (and there is
less far to fall). Me, I prefer to keep a sense of perspective.

And a recumbent as well, of course.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Quoted message said:

the reason being, it's
possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a
STATIONARY Bike...

Relax. It's possible to get a severe head injury if you fall over while
standing up[1].

[1] Eh?

you know? said:

I've been riding for about 30 years and not yet fallen from a
stationary bike, though.

Actually, I think I've fallen off more times when my bike has been
stationary or hardly moving than otherwise. Yet to bang my head
though, helmeted or otherwise.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

the reason being, it's
possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a
STATIONARY Bike...

Relax. It's possible to get a severe head injury if you fall over while
standing up[1].

The top of my head is still quite tender from the clout I gave it at
the weekend on the door frame leading down to the garage. Foolishly I
was not wearing a stair helmet.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

Ian Smith said:

It's quite interesting - you can argue rationally with them, and it
doesn't improve their understanding of the issues - we _still_ get
endless dodgy anecdotes masquerading as facts or (worse) proofs. If
you just swear at them (or dismiss them, as above) I think it is no
less likely to educate, but it feels a whole lot less frustrating.

I guess the next step is to go completely cold turkey and just stop
reading teh helmet threads, but there's a strange morbid fascination
in watching teh slaughter of reason and logic.

Think of the helmet-hypochondria-humbug as an infectious disease or perhaps a malignant tumour... Do you walk away and leave it to run its course and do whatever irreparable damage that it can? Or perhaps what's needed is the repeatedly innoculation until reason is able to reach a critical mass and get the upper hand. Or like a tumour what's needed is the equivalent of some chemo therapy, for these self-deluded dolts.

What would happen if leave their misguided idiocy alone and allow it to spawn and reproduce itself in the general population? Answer - exactly what happened in New Zealand - grrr.

Roger

Jaguar27 said:

Hi Peter,
You're not preaching at all in my opinion, I'm glad your mate was OK by the way...

I posted a similar Crash that happened to my wife
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t176710.html . Thankfully she only suffered some serious abrasions and mild concussion (she landed on the side of her head)....sure, a Helmet can't prevent all kinds of injuries, and I think it's a futile discussion unless we can predict our next accident, which is impossible....it's all a matter of personal choice, unless the Law says otherwise....my choice is to never even get on the saddle without wearing my Helmet...the reason being, it's possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a STATIONARY Bike...

So there we have it - one of the all too standard types of response.
Let's see, Jaguar27, were is the cognitive content in your response - absent perhaps - and replaced with a circular, begging the question type, reciting of your already held beliefs - like a Te Deum perhaps?

Jaguar27 - you and your type can repeat and recite together and chorus your helmet beliefs till the cows come home - but through it all the fact remains that you're sucking a dummy. And what happens when we try to pry the dummy from these helmet hysterics? They wail their mantra - thats sort of regressive wouldn't you say?

Roger

(Russell) said:

"John Mallard" <not_me@all> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Russell said:

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

A single statistic?!!!!

How bloody pointless is that?

Quoted message said:

So I am "pointless" am I?

Do pay attention. He was referring to what you wrote, not you. One
presumes that your opinions are more easily corrected than your
person.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Peter B said:

Actually since anecdotes provide so much proof of the life saving qualities
of h...h.....h.......HELMETS.....there, I've said it, I've been digging into
my own memory for instances I've witnessed, or been close to the source, of
people banging their noggins' during involuntary dismounts so I can get an
idea of the danger being protected against.
And you know what? I can only recall banging my head once when cycling into
the back of a parked lorry while daydreaming as a kid, during all
involuntary dismounts/collisions I've landed on everything but my head.
To cast my research further afield I've thought about all the people I've
ridden with and all the events I've attended and can only recall one
instance where a friend head-butted a rock when landing from a fall whilst
mtbing (and I wasn't present that day so have to rely on witnesses) and
suffered minor concussion.

Quoted message said:

My conclusion from this is that the odds on landing on your head rather than
outstretched hands, shoulder, arrse, knees, hip etc are slim indeed.
One of my justifications for wearing one when mtbing is that if nothing else
it protects my head from overhanging branches, but of course without the
added height of the h****t I'd probably not collide with them in the first
place.

Now you mention it, although I've been cycling on and off as basic
transport most years since the age of 12, and am now past 60, the only
times I've ever hit my head in any kind of accident have been when I
was wearing a helmet. Once was on a motorcycle, and the other times
were when I experimented with a climbing helmet. I banged my head so
much when wearing a climbing helmet that I gave it up. And that's not
for lack of accidents -- before I turned forty my usual reason for
visiting a doctor was in the A&E to have some broken bones set.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

(D.M. Procida) said:

I'm not sure that I've ever gone over the handlebars on a bike - I've
had plenty of accidents, but not of that sort. I'm pretty good at
falling, and do it for about six hours a week at Aikido. Once this
happened when I tripped on a concrete pavement while running at full
speed - it would have smashed my face and almost certainly have broken
something otherwise, but I got away with a little graze on my elbow, and
I hardly even broke my stride and kept on running. I came up right in
front of a teenaged boy and I can still see him staring with his jaw
wide open in disbelief - I think he thought I did it on purpose.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, apart from bragging about how clever I am, what I wanted to ask
was whether anyone who knows how to fall has done so in such a way from
a bike.

I've never been trained how to fall, but I guess an active outdoor
childhood taught me appropriate skills.

Last time I fell off a bike (and the first time in 40 years) I lost
control after hitting a brick at speed. I had been drugged by a doctor
who claimed it "would not affect my driving", which was clearly
rubbish: it made me feel super strong and super confident, and I was
pedalling furiously down a steep hill I usually brake on.

Realising a crash was probably inevitable I stopped trying to stay up,
threw the back wheel round into a sideways skid, stepped off, and hit
the ground with buttock and shoulder. Damaged clothing but no bruising
or abrasion, and no head contact. I was reacting instinctively, but it
was quite clear to me that what I was doing was trying to fall in such
a way that firstly my head was very unlikely to hit anything, and
secondly that I would take as much of the impact as possible on
substantially derformable muscles masses, thus minimising risk of bone
breaks.

Despite having had no practice at falling off a bike for 40 years, I
still managed a textbook controlled minimum injury impact.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

the reason being, it's
possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a
STATIONARY Bike...

Quoted message said:

Relax. It's possible to get a severe head injury if you fall over while
standing up[1].

Quoted message said:

[1] Eh?

The impact of falling over from a standing height onto a concrete
floor and hitting the head directly is generally taken as the medical
threshold for possible concussion. If instead of hitting something
flat and hard you hit a hard corner severe injury and even fatal
injury is possible in such a fall. The kerb is a common source of such
injuries.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Jaguar27 said:

...the reason being, it's
possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a
STATIONARY Bike...

But do you wear one walking and standing around? Its possible and
people do suffer severe head injuries from tripping or stumbling or
being assaulted. You are far more likely to have that happen in your
life than you are from falling from a stationary bicycle.

It just seems illogical to single out bike riding in your wearing of a
helmet.

Tony

Chris Malcolm said:

Do pay attention. He was referring to what you wrote, not you. One
presumes that your opinions are more easily corrected than your
person.

The evidence is against you thus far, Chris - he posted a link to the 1989
Thompson, Rivara and Thompson study and apparently thought this would be
news to us!

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

Chris Malcolm said:

Now you mention it, although I've been cycling on and off as basic
transport most years since the age of 12, and am now past 60

'struth! Your posts make me feel like an old fogey, and you're twenty years
older than me! I guess I was born middle-aged...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

Dave Kahn said:

Quoted message said:

I've been riding for about 30 years and not yet fallen from a
stationary bike, though.

Quoted message said:

Actually, I think I've fallen off more times when my bike has been
stationary or hardly moving than otherwise. Yet to bang my head
though, helmeted or otherwise.

Clipless newbie? ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

Chris Malcolm said:

The impact of falling over from a standing height onto a concrete
floor and hitting the head directly is generally taken as the medical
threshold for possible concussion. If instead of hitting something
flat and hard you hit a hard corner severe injury and even fatal
injury is possible in such a fall. The kerb is a common source of such
injuries.

As Dr Atkins discovered to his cost. Walking helmets anyone?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Jaguar27 said:

...the reason being, it's
possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a
STATIONARY Bike...

But do you wear one walking and standing around? Its possible and
people do suffer severe head injuries from tripping or stumbling or
being assaulted. You are far more likely to have that happen in your
life than you are from falling from a stationary bicycle.

It just seems illogical to single out bike riding in your wearing of a
helmet.

If people want to and it makes them feel more comfortable and confident,
I really don't see the harm in it. The harm is in people claiming that
they are effective in preventing injury when this does not seem to be
the case, and in people trying to bully other people into wearing them.

I will be wearing a helmet for the time trial this evening... because
it's 'the rules'. Now *that* is a bad thing.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Woz: 'All the best people in life seem to like LINUX.'
;; <URL:http://www.woz.org/woz/cresponses/response03.html>

in message <[email hidden]>, Just zis Guy,

you know? (') said:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:59:37 +1000, Jaguar27
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

my choice is to never even get
on the saddle without wearing my Helmet...the reason being, it's
possible to suffer a severe head injury even after falling from a
STATIONARY Bike...

That's essentially what they're tested for, of course.

I've been riding for about 30 years and not yet fallen from a
stationary bike, though.

No? Isn't that the modus operandi of the Standard SPD Pratfall?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

my other car is #<Subr-Car: #5d480>
;; This joke is not funny in emacs.

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

I've been riding for about 30 years and not yet fallen from a
stationary bike, though.

Quoted message said:

No? Isn't that the modus operandi of the Standard SPD Pratfall?

Ah, but I started with Looks ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

Simon Brooke said:

If people want to and it makes them feel more comfortable and
confident, I really don't see the harm in it.

As long as each helmet wearer is not counted as a "yes" vote in a secret
referendum on compulsion.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University