Helmets

On 10 Sep 2004 16:08:41 -0700, [email hidden] (Russell) wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

That was not a statistic, it was a single event. Statistics are made
up of the aggregation of single events over large enough groups for
inferences to be drawn. Statistics show that you are more likely to
hit your head when wearing a helmet and no less likely to suffer a
head injury.

Not only was your crash not statistically significant, your
conclusions drawn from it are not supported by the actual statistics.

In this newsgroup you will find a large number of cyclists, some of
whom have doctorates and research careers, who have actualy studied
the evidence and formed a view which is different to yours. You might
want to consider why that is.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Zog The Undeniable said:

Peter Taylor said:

Not preaching - just trying to redress the balance.

Trolling is the word I would have chosen, but thank you for playing ;-)

That's not a helmet troll, this is a helmet troll
(http://www.compbio.dundee.ac.uk/~dmamartin/helmet.jpg - sorry, I couldn't
resist)

...d

On 11/9/04 12:08 am, in article
[email hidden], "Russell"

Quoted message said:

Ambrose Nankivell <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Peter Taylor said:

Sorry to post on this subject again.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down and run,
slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low speed accident.
Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you information you can
trust.

Bang your head against a brick wall? Most of us are alread doing that
in this thread. Without helmets on.

A

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

Last Monday, I skidded off the road bike on loose chippings at high
speed.
I suffered large expanse of road rash and deep gashes to ankle, knee,
hip and arm.
Flesh departed from tip of 1 finger and 1 thumb.
Sprained ankle and a slight head & neck ache.

After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
away.

This rider will never again ride without one. Ok, it won't protect me
being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my bacon this time!

This sounds like a carbon copy of an accident I had when I was 17. Going
fast round a corner, hit loose gravel, loads of road rash etc. Hit the deck,
flip the bike and hit the deck the other side.

Bruised thigh, road rash on:
both wrists, both shoulders, right forearm (most of it) chin and both
temples.

No helmet. No neck ache, no head ache but a lot of road rash.

The new spenco gel gloves I was wearing had gone through to almost the skin.
Boy was I glad I was wearing gloves (useful to mop the blood up as well).

I had smashed a pair of sunglasses (which I picked off the side of my head
instead of the front.)

I hate to think what would have happened with a helmet. I'd have hit the
ground harder (less distance for the natural shock adsorption in the neck to
work in) and with the strong non-normal (ie sliding) component, could well
have picked up nasty rotational injuries.

So the jury is somewhat out.

...d

"John Mallard" <not_me@all> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Russell said:

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

A single statistic?!!!!

How bloody pointless is that?

So I am "pointless" am I?

RogerDodger <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Russell said:

...
Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

Last Monday, I skidded off the road bike on loose chippings at high
speed.
I suffered large expanse of road rash and deep gashes to ankle, knee,
hip and arm.
Flesh departed from tip of 1 finger and 1 thumb.
Sprained ankle and a slight head & neck ache.

After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
away.

This rider will never again ride without one. Ok, it won't protect me
being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my bacon this time!

Russell

Well hello bacon brains!

If brains were made of bacon... would Russell have enough for
breakfast?

Roger

Its a figure of speech Roger. You will learn about such techniques in
key stage 3 when you get there.

[email hidden] (Russell) wrote:
....
| > >After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
| > >it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
| > >gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
| > >away.
....
| The point I was trying to make is that although my body was pretty
| battered, my head must have taken quite a knock & I didn't even
| realise until I looked at my helmet a couple of hours later and I had
| a head & neck ache the next day.

Possibly due to the greater weight of your head+helmet.

| Now ok, it might not have resulted in a fractured skull (we'll never know)

Your other bones weren't broken. Skulls may be thinner than thigh
bones but their shape makes them just as strong. Anyone got better
data than that? In particular can we say whether skulls are stronger
than helmets (depending on the angle etc)?

| but that's my most precious organ
| in there and (this is the important bit) the neurons inside it can't
| ever be replaced, unlike my ankle, knee, hip & fingers.

You get brain damage from the brain slapping against the inside of the
skull, in various ways. It's all about decceleration rates. A helmet
can reduce the decceleration rate but not by denting and the
polystyrene breaking away. I can be quite confident from your
description of your helmet that it made no significant positive
contribution to reducing the decceleration rate of your head at the
moment of impact. This is not a matter of opinion, nor is it the
product of rocket-science-level theorizing.

| Now, here's another statistic. A couple of years back I did fall off
| my bike without a helmet, at hardly more than walking pace and I
| banged my head on the road. It really hurt and I had a dirty great
| scab & bruise but only quite minor cuts & scrapes elsewhere. Kind of
| the opposite to my most recent 'helmeted' accident.

I don't believe "dirty great scab & bruise" denotes a condition close
to fatal or involving brain damage.

| I leave the final word to the very first sentence in the British
| Cycling "Getting Started" guide for young riders:-
|
| "KIT:
| Helmets: are a must when cycling."
|
| http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/2003/BC_GUIDE%20TO%20CYCLING%20FOR%20KIDS.doc

404. The site seems to be about cycling as sport; I wouldn't take
their advice about a2b cycling, thanks.

--
Patrick Herring, Sheffield, UK
http://www.anweald.co.uk

Dave Kahn <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Russell) said:

I suffered large expanse of road rash and deep gashes to ankle, knee,
hip and arm.
Flesh departed from tip of 1 finger and 1 thumb.
Sprained ankle and a slight head & neck ache.

After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
away.

It had probably suffered a mild blow - they are quite fragile
actually. And you still had a headache and a sore neck, so you didn't
get that much protection. It may have saved your head from some
grazing but arguably your injuries were worse with the helmet than
they would have been without it.

Quoted message said:

This rider will never again ride without one.

That of course is your privilege.

Quoted message said:

Ok, it won't protect me being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my
bacon this time!

I'm amazaed how often these "helmet saved my life" stories involve a
failed helmet and concussion. I've even heard an ambulance driver say,
"When they come round we show them the broken helmet." The concussed
cyclist is probably too dazed to draw the obvious conclusion: "I got
knocked out because the helmet failed".

Well at least somebody managed to reply without insulting me! I was
baginning to think all the anti-helmet brigade were anti-helmet
because they had nothing to protect. (I'm sure I'm not the first
person to notice this).

The point I was trying to make is that although my body was pretty
battered, my head must have taken quite a knock & I didn't even
realise until I looked at my helmet a couple of hours later and I had
a head & neck ache the next day. Now ok, it might not have resulted in
a fractured skull (we'll never know) but that's my most precious organ
in there and (this is the important bit) the neurons inside it can't
ever be replaced, unlike my ankle, knee, hip & fingers.

Now, here's another statistic. A couple of years back I did fall off
my bike without a helmet, at hardly more than walking pace and I
banged my head on the road. It really hurt and I had a dirty great
scab & bruise but only quite minor cuts & scrapes elsewhere. Kind of
the opposite to my most recent 'helmeted' accident.

I leave the final word to the very first sentence in the British
Cycling "Getting Started" guide for young riders:-

"KIT:
Helmets: are a must when cycling."

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/2003/BC_GUIDE%20TO%20CYCLING%20FOR%20KIDS.doc

Russell

Russell said:

I was
baginning to think all the anti-helmet brigade were anti-helmet
because they had nothing to protect. (I'm sure I'm not the first
person to notice this).

Actually, yes you are the first person ever to have thought up such a
witty put-down. And it's so convincing, too. Obviously anyone who dares
to disagree with your considered opinion must be a moron or otherwise
brain-damaged. I will immediately forget all the research I have read on
the subject, and put on a helmet.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Russell said:

The point I was trying to make is that although my body was pretty
battered, my head must have taken quite a knock & I didn't even
realise until I looked at my helmet a couple of hours later and I had
a head & neck ache the next day. Now ok, it might not have resulted in
a fractured skull (we'll never know) but that's my most precious organ
in there and (this is the important bit) the neurons inside it can't
ever be replaced, unlike my ankle, knee, hip & fingers.

Have you stopped to consider whether the neck and head ache were caused
by the helmet? Its quite feasible that the side of your helmet grabbed
on the ground and jerked your head round in a way that would have either
not happened or not happened as strongly without the helmet?

Quoted message said:

I leave the final word to the very first sentence in the British
Cycling "Getting Started" guide for young riders:-

"KIT:
Helmets: are a must when cycling."

Better tell the Dutch who have the lowest helmet wearing rate and the
lowest cyclist head injury rate in the world.

Tony

Russell [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Now, here's another statistic.

The thing is... _a_ statistic is actually an "anecdote". Strange how a
story akin to those told over a few beers in the pub doesn't conjure up
the image of reliable data.

If you really want to prevent cuts and scrapes, get a well fitting
beanie and some kevlar. Wrap the former with the latter and wear it with
pride.

If you add a layer of tinfoil, you might be able to deflect the mind
control signals that the government / aliens / secret ruling cabal are
beaming into your brain!

Jon

Jon Senior said:

Russell [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Now, here's another statistic.

The thing is... _a_ statistic is actually an "anecdote". Strange how a
story akin to those told over a few beers in the pub doesn't conjure up
the image of reliable data.

If you really want to prevent cuts and scrapes, get a well fitting
beanie and some kevlar. Wrap the former with the latter and wear it with
pride.

If you add a layer of tinfoil, you might be able to deflect the mind
control signals that the government / aliens / secret ruling cabal are
beaming into your brain!

And a layer of polystyrene will cause motor vehicles to bounce off.

Tony ;-)

On 11 Sep 2004 15:45:09 -0700, [email hidden] (Russell) wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Well at least somebody managed to reply without insulting me!

Yes - remarkable, really, when you consider that your post insulted
all of us.

Quoted message said:

I was
baginning to think all the anti-helmet brigade were anti-helmet
because they had nothing to protect. (I'm sure I'm not the first
person to notice this).

Oh how original. Nobody has ever said that before. Oh, wait...

Can you find anybody anti-helmet around here? I know precisely one
person who is anti-helmet, and I am quite active in the field of
helmet campaigining. I know an goodly number of people who are
anti-[censored], especially anti the kind of [censored] put out by helmet
zealots.

Quoted message said:

Now, here's another statistic. A couple of years back I did fall off
my bike without a helmet, at hardly more than walking pace and I
banged my head on the road. It really hurt and I had a dirty great
scab & bruise but only quite minor cuts & scrapes elsewhere. Kind of
the opposite to my most recent 'helmeted' accident.

Oh, so you fell off and didn't die? Right. So falling off a bike is
not a fatal experience - who could have predicted that? At least you
know precisely how much the kind of crash for which a helmet is
designed, hurts. Because that fall is pretty much what lids are
designed for. If you want to wear one to prevent future cuts and
bruises, please feel free - but remember that cuts and bruises are not
life-threatening, and there is no credible evidence worldwide that
helmets prevent serious injury or death.

Quoted message said:

I leave the final word to the very first sentence in the British
Cycling "Getting Started" guide for young riders:-

Why use that rather than the BMA's position that helmet use should not
be compulsory?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Russell said:

Now, here's another statistic. A couple of years back I did fall off
my bike without a helmet, at hardly more than walking pace and I
banged my head on the road. It really hurt and I had a dirty great
scab & bruise but only quite minor cuts & scrapes elsewhere.

You seem to hit your head a lot when you fall off. It has been a while
since I had an off but cannot recall ever hitting my head hard
enough to cause those kind of injuries - and especially not at walking
pace.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

On 12 Sep 2004 12:44:41 GMT, Andy Leighton <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

Now, here's another statistic. A couple of years back I did fall off
my bike without a helmet, at hardly more than walking pace and I
banged my head on the road. It really hurt and I had a dirty great
scab & bruise but only quite minor cuts & scrapes elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

You seem to hit your head a lot when you fall off. It has been a while
since I had an off but cannot recall ever hitting my head hard
enough to cause those kind of injuries - and especially not at walking
pace.

Heh! Fair point. Maybe Russell should be riding a recumbent - at
least that way the first thing to hit the ground will be his [censored] :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Quoted message said:

Heh! Fair point. Maybe Russell should be riding a recumbent - at
least that way the first thing to hit the ground will be his [censored] :-)

He might find it painful to talk for a while..

in message <[email hidden]>, David Martin

(') said:

On 10/9/04 7:05 pm, in article 4141ecc0.0@entanet, "Zog The

Undeniable said:

Peter Taylor said:

Not preaching - just trying to redress the balance.

Trolling is the word I would have chosen, but thank you for playing
;-)

That's not a helmet troll, this is a helmet troll
(http://www.compbio.dundee.ac.uk/~dmamartin/helmet.jpg - sorry, I
couldn't resist)

Nice one!

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.

in message <[email hidden]>, Andy Leighton

(') said:

Russell said:

Now, here's another statistic. A couple of years back I did fall off
my bike without a helmet, at hardly more than walking pace and I
banged my head on the road. It really hurt and I had a dirty great
scab & bruise but only quite minor cuts & scrapes elsewhere.

You seem to hit your head a lot when you fall off. It has been a
while since I had an off but cannot recall ever hitting my head hard
enough to cause those kind of injuries - and especially not at walking
pace.

I've fallen off mountain bikes certainly hundreds of time in the last
ten years. I've _never_ had my head hit the ground (or anything else
for that matter).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; An enamorata is for life, not just for weekends.

Russell said:

This rider will never again ride without one. Ok, it won't protect me
being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my bacon this time!

Pillock.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Russell said:

"John Mallard" <not_me@all> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Russell said:

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

A single statistic?!!!!

How bloody pointless is that?

So I am "pointless" am I?

And stupid, too.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Russell said:

a head & neck ache the next day. Now ok, it might not have resulted in
a fractured skull (we'll never know) but that's my most precious organ
in there and (this is the important bit) the neurons inside it can't
ever be replaced, unlike my ankle, knee, hip & fingers.

It might have resulted in a fractured skull.

Then again, your head might have missed the road entirely and your
headache and neck ache are an injury caused by teh helmet. Your
helmet killed off some of your precious neurons, which can't ever be
replaced.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|