Well, [censored]

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:29:44 +1300, Miche <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In NZ we use single-phase at 230V and three-phase at 400V (both AC, of
course), all at 50Hz.

How boring. Where's the fun? Where's the profit?

<running>

Let's not go there. Since the "national grid" was deregulated, power
prices have gone through the roof.

Miche

Oh, please don't tell me you suffer the National Grid curse. We here in
RI and MA have suffered under them for the past few years. It was bad
enough when the legislators in RI decided that deregulation would be a
good thing for the consumer. Yeah, that's how my per kWh cost jumped
from 9 cents to 14 cents.

In article <[email hidden]>,

T said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:29:44 +1300, Miche <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>
>In NZ we use single-phase at 230V and three-phase at 400V (both AC, of
>course), all at 50Hz.

How boring. Where's the fun? Where's the profit?

<running>

Let's not go there. Since the "national grid" was deregulated, power
prices have gone through the roof.

Oh, please don't tell me you suffer the National Grid curse. We here in
RI and MA have suffered under them for the past few years. It was bad
enough when the legislators in RI decided that deregulation would be a
good thing for the consumer. Yeah, that's how my per kWh cost jumped
from 9 cents to 14 cents.

National Grid's not an organisation; it's a description for the
distribution network from the generation facilities throughout the
country.

But yeah, we don't really have one any more -- the supply was broken up
into "generation companies", "line companies" and "supply companies",
all of whom take their cut.

And my city council was forced to sell its own little power station to a
"generation company", even though they were able to sell the power on to
consumers themselves for a very low cost and still make a profit.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 10:48:02p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Dan Abel said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Miche <[email hidden]> wrote:

> > >> dad did. It was a long time ago, so I forget the actual
> > >> details. Dad was/is a "double-E" (retired now) <g> so I left it
> > >> up to him how to

> So you actually have a hybrid system, then? Interesting! I was
> under the (mistaken) impression that it was all 110VAC. Thanks for
> the update.

Most houses in the US have three wires coming in. Hook up to the outer
two wires and you have 220. Hook up to the inner wire and one of the
outer wires and you have 110. Most newer houses have 200A (at 220)
service. I got the el cheapo house, so I've got 100A (at 220). I also
got the el cheapo breaker box. There is no main switch (the "rule of
five"😉 and five breakers, 4 20s (at 110) and a 220 breaker for the
electric dryer.

That's really interesting. All installations here have a main switch.
Most houses here get supply at 60A, but it's all at 230V (400 between
phases if there's more than one phase which there usually isn't -- if
there is, each phase is at 60A). Note that this is for domestic supply
-- commercial supply can be much, much gruntier by way of amperage, but
still at 400V line voltage for three-phase.

We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220 volts, and each
with a master breaker. It's an all electric home, so we have greater power
demands than homes that use gas for heating, cooking, and heating water in
lieu of electric. We could probably get by with one 200 amp panel, but I
like the idea of being able to expand without involving major power
changes. If we put in a pool and/or backyard spa, we will definitely use
some of that additional capacity.

That's good thinking. 🙂 And you don't have to turn the second phase on
until you need it.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 10:48:02p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Dan Abel <[email hidden]> wrote:

> In article <[email hidden]>,
> Miche <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>
> > > >> dad did. It was a long time ago, so I forget the actual
> > > >> details. Dad was/is a "double-E" (retired now) <g> so I left
> > > >> it up to him how to
>
> > So you actually have a hybrid system, then? Interesting! I was
> > under the (mistaken) impression that it was all 110VAC. Thanks
> > for the update.
>
> Most houses in the US have three wires coming in. Hook up to the
> outer two wires and you have 220. Hook up to the inner wire and one
> of the outer wires and you have 110. Most newer houses have 200A
> (at 220) service. I got the el cheapo house, so I've got 100A (at
> 220). I also got the el cheapo breaker box. There is no main
> switch (the "rule of five"😉 and five breakers, 4 20s (at 110) and a
> 220 breaker for the electric dryer.

That's really interesting. All installations here have a main
switch. Most houses here get supply at 60A, but it's all at 230V
(400 between phases if there's more than one phase which there
usually isn't -- if there is, each phase is at 60A). Note that this
is for domestic supply -- commercial supply can be much, much
gruntier by way of amperage, but still at 400V line voltage for
three-phase.

We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220 volts, and
each with a master breaker. It's an all electric home, so we have
greater power demands than homes that use gas for heating, cooking, and
heating water in lieu of electric. We could probably get by with one
200 amp panel, but I like the idea of being able to expand without
involving major power changes. If we put in a pool and/or backyard
spa, we will definitely use some of that additional capacity.

That's good thinking. 🙂 And you don't have to turn the second phase on
until you need it.

Miche

True, but the major decision was based on original installation cost vs.
later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but incorporating it into
the original construction cost only an addition $500.

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
______________________________________________________________

OK, I'm weird ! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 10:48:02p, Miche meant to say...

> In article
> <[email hidden]>,
> Dan Abel <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>> Miche <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > > >> dad did. It was a long time ago, so I forget the actual
>> > > >> details. Dad was/is a "double-E" (retired now) <g> so I left
>> > > >> it up to him how to
>>
>> > So you actually have a hybrid system, then? Interesting! I was
>> > under the (mistaken) impression that it was all 110VAC. Thanks
>> > for the update.
>>
>> Most houses in the US have three wires coming in. Hook up to the
>> outer two wires and you have 220. Hook up to the inner wire and one
>> of the outer wires and you have 110. Most newer houses have 200A
>> (at 220) service. I got the el cheapo house, so I've got 100A (at
>> 220). I also got the el cheapo breaker box. There is no main
>> switch (the "rule of five"😉 and five breakers, 4 20s (at 110) and a
>> 220 breaker for the electric dryer.
>
> That's really interesting. All installations here have a main
> switch. Most houses here get supply at 60A, but it's all at 230V
> (400 between phases if there's more than one phase which there
> usually isn't -- if there is, each phase is at 60A). Note that this
> is for domestic supply -- commercial supply can be much, much
> gruntier by way of amperage, but still at 400V line voltage for
> three-phase.

We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220 volts, and
each with a master breaker. It's an all electric home, so we have
greater power demands than homes that use gas for heating, cooking, and
heating water in lieu of electric. We could probably get by with one
200 amp panel, but I like the idea of being able to expand without
involving major power changes. If we put in a pool and/or backyard
spa, we will definitely use some of that additional capacity.

That's good thinking. 🙂 And you don't have to turn the second phase on
until you need it.

True, but the major decision was based on original installation cost vs.
later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but incorporating it into
the original construction cost only an addition $500.

Even better thinking. How's your insulation? A bit of thought put into
that (and a bit of up-front cost) can save you a fortune later.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:44:57a, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 10:48:02p, Miche meant to say...
>
> > In article
> > <[email hidden]>,
> > Dan Abel <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <[email hidden]>,
> >> Miche <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> > > >> dad did. It was a long time ago, so I forget the actual
> >> > > >> details. Dad was/is a "double-E" (retired now) <g> so I
> >> > > >> left it up to him how to
> >>
> >> > So you actually have a hybrid system, then? Interesting! I
> >> > was under the (mistaken) impression that it was all 110VAC.
> >> > Thanks for the update.
> >>
> >> Most houses in the US have three wires coming in. Hook up to the
> >> outer two wires and you have 220. Hook up to the inner wire and
> >> one of the outer wires and you have 110. Most newer houses have
> >> 200A (at 220) service. I got the el cheapo house, so I've got
> >> 100A (at 220). I also got the el cheapo breaker box. There is
> >> no main switch (the "rule of five"😉 and five breakers, 4 20s (at
> >> 110) and a 220 breaker for the electric dryer.
> >
> > That's really interesting. All installations here have a main
> > switch. Most houses here get supply at 60A, but it's all at 230V
> > (400 between phases if there's more than one phase which there
> > usually isn't -- if there is, each phase is at 60A). Note that
> > this is for domestic supply -- commercial supply can be much, much
> > gruntier by way of amperage, but still at 400V line voltage for
> > three-phase.
>
> We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220 volts,
> and each with a master breaker. It's an all electric home, so we
> have greater power demands than homes that use gas for heating,
> cooking, and heating water in lieu of electric. We could probably
> get by with one 200 amp panel, but I like the idea of being able to
> expand without involving major power changes. If we put in a pool
> and/or backyard spa, we will definitely use some of that additional
> capacity.

That's good thinking. 🙂 And you don't have to turn the second phase
on until you need it.

True, but the major decision was based on original installation cost
vs. later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but incorporating
it into the original construction cost only an addition $500.

Even better thinking. How's your insulation? A bit of thought put into
that (and a bit of up-front cost) can save you a fortune later.

Miche

We have 2" x 6" wall construction and the insulation rating in the walls is
R-50 (don't know if that means a thing outside of the US). We don't have
an attic (all vaulted ceilings), and the construction and insulation is the
same. We do have a crawl space under the house, and the floors are
insulated underneath at an R-30 rating.

Since we live in the desert, winter temsps are not much of an issue, but
our summer temps can reach near 120 degrees F.

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
______________________________________________________________

OK, I'm weird ! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:44:57a, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...

> In article <[email hidden]>,
> Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220 volts,
>> and each with a master breaker. It's an all electric home, so we
>> have greater power demands than homes that use gas for heating,
>> cooking, and heating water in lieu of electric. We could probably
>> get by with one 200 amp panel, but I like the idea of being able to
>> expand without involving major power changes. If we put in a pool
>> and/or backyard spa, we will definitely use some of that additional
>> capacity.
>
> That's good thinking. 🙂 And you don't have to turn the second phase
> on until you need it.

True, but the major decision was based on original installation cost
vs. later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but incorporating
it into the original construction cost only an addition $500.

Even better thinking. How's your insulation? A bit of thought put into
that (and a bit of up-front cost) can save you a fortune later.

We have 2" x 6" wall construction and the insulation rating in the walls is
R-50 (don't know if that means a thing outside of the US).

It doesn't. 🙂

Quoted message said:

We don't have
an attic (all vaulted ceilings), and the construction and insulation is the
same. We do have a crawl space under the house, and the floors are
insulated underneath at an R-30 rating.

Since we live in the desert, winter temsps are not much of an issue, but
our summer temps can reach near 120 degrees F.

True enough, but insulation can also help keep the interior cool, thus
reducing the need for air conditioning, which in turn reduces power
needs.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 11:26:29a, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:44:57a, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...
>
> > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >> We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220
> >> volts, and each with a master breaker. It's an all electric
> >> home, so we have greater power demands than homes that use gas
> >> for heating, cooking, and heating water in lieu of electric. We
> >> could probably get by with one 200 amp panel, but I like the idea
> >> of being able to expand without involving major power changes.
> >> If we put in a pool and/or backyard spa, we will definitely use
> >> some of that additional capacity.
> >
> > That's good thinking. 🙂 And you don't have to turn the second
> > phase on until you need it.
>
> True, but the major decision was based on original installation cost
> vs. later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but
> incorporating it into the original construction cost only an
> addition $500.

Even better thinking. How's your insulation? A bit of thought put
into that (and a bit of up-front cost) can save you a fortune later.

We have 2" x 6" wall construction and the insulation rating in the
walls is R-50 (don't know if that means a thing outside of the US).

It doesn't. 🙂

"R" ratings for insulation indicate the insulationi material's efficiency.
What we have in our house is insulation at peak efficiency. Friends of
ours have an older and smaller home and less insulation, and pay nearly
twice what we do for summer cooling.;

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We don't have
an attic (all vaulted ceilings), and the construction and insulation is
the same. We do have a crawl space under the house, and the floors are
insulated underneath at an R-30 rating.

Since we live in the desert, winter temsps are not much of an issue,
but our summer temps can reach near 120 degrees F.

True enough, but insulation can also help keep the interior cool, thus
reducing the need for air conditioning, which in turn reduces power
needs.

Yes, where we live insulation is really more important for the summer
cooling than the winter heating. Where we move from in Ohio, it was just
the opposite.

Quoted message said:

Miche

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
______________________________________________________________

OK, I'm weird ! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 11:26:29a, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:44:57a, Miche meant to say...

> In article <[email hidden]>,
> Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...
>>
>> > In article <[email hidden]>,
>> > Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >> We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220
>> >> volts, and each with a master breaker. It's an all electric
>> >> home, so we have greater power demands than homes that use gas
>> >> for heating, cooking, and heating water in lieu of electric. We
>> >> could probably get by with one 200 amp panel, but I like the idea
>> >> of being able to expand without involving major power changes.
>> >> If we put in a pool and/or backyard spa, we will definitely use
>> >> some of that additional capacity.
>> >
>> > That's good thinking. 🙂 And you don't have to turn the second
>> > phase on until you need it.
>>
>> True, but the major decision was based on original installation cost
>> vs. later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but
>> incorporating it into the original construction cost only an
>> addition $500.
>
> Even better thinking. How's your insulation? A bit of thought put
> into that (and a bit of up-front cost) can save you a fortune later.

We have 2" x 6" wall construction and the insulation rating in the
walls is R-50 (don't know if that means a thing outside of the US).

It doesn't. 🙂

"R" ratings for insulation indicate the insulationi material's efficiency.
What we have in our house is insulation at peak efficiency. Friends of
ours have an older and smaller home and less insulation, and pay nearly
twice what we do for summer cooling.;

Thank you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We don't have
an attic (all vaulted ceilings), and the construction and insulation is
the same. We do have a crawl space under the house, and the floors are
insulated underneath at an R-30 rating.

Since we live in the desert, winter temsps are not much of an issue,
but our summer temps can reach near 120 degrees F.

True enough, but insulation can also help keep the interior cool, thus
reducing the need for air conditioning, which in turn reduces power
needs.

Yes, where we live insulation is really more important for the summer
cooling than the winter heating. Where we move from in Ohio, it was just
the opposite.

Bit of a change in mind set!

NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
unnecessary illness from cold and damp.

Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:18:53p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 11:26:29a, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:44:57a, Miche meant to say...
>
> > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >> Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...
> >>
> >> > In article
> >> > <[email hidden]>,
> >> > Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >> >> We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220
> >> >> volts, and each with a master breaker. It's an all electric
> >> >> home, so we have greater power demands than homes that use gas
> >> >> for heating, cooking, and heating water in lieu of electric.
> >> >> We could probably get by with one 200 amp panel, but I like
> >> >> the idea of being able to expand without involving major power
> >> >> changes. If we put in a pool and/or backyard spa, we will
> >> >> definitely use some of that additional capacity.
> >> >
> >> > That's good thinking. 🙂 And you don't have to turn the second
> >> > phase on until you need it.
> >>
> >> True, but the major decision was based on original installation
> >> cost vs. later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but
> >> incorporating it into the original construction cost only an
> >> addition $500.
> >
> > Even better thinking. How's your insulation? A bit of thought
> > put into that (and a bit of up-front cost) can save you a fortune
> > later.
>
> We have 2" x 6" wall construction and the insulation rating in the
> walls is R-50 (don't know if that means a thing outside of the US).

It doesn't. 🙂

"R" ratings for insulation indicate the insulationi material's
efficiency. What we have in our house is insulation at peak
efficiency. Friends of ours have an older and smaller home and less
insulation, and pay nearly twice what we do for summer cooling.;

Thank you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> We don't have
> an attic (all vaulted ceilings), and the construction and insulation
> is the same. We do have a crawl space under the house, and the
> floors are insulated underneath at an R-30 rating.
>
> Since we live in the desert, winter temsps are not much of an issue,
> but our summer temps can reach near 120 degrees F.

True enough, but insulation can also help keep the interior cool,
thus reducing the need for air conditioning, which in turn reduces
power needs.

Yes, where we live insulation is really more important for the summer
cooling than the winter heating. Where we move from in Ohio, it was
just the opposite.

Bit of a change in mind set!

NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
unnecessary illness from cold and damp.

Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.

Miche

Since I don't have a clue, Miche, is central heating and central cooling a
common or uncommon thing in NZ? Curious, also... What do the WHO
guidlines specify? What are the conditions typically found in homes there?

Yes, without proper insulation, heating and/or cooling costs can increase
dramatically.

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
______________________________________________________________

OK, I'm weird ! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:18:53p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
unnecessary illness from cold and damp.

Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.

Quoted message said:

Since I don't have a clue, Miche, is central heating and central cooling a
common or uncommon thing in NZ?

Unusual, yeah. I don't know a private house here that has it (or, if
they do have it, uses it -- most of the units still extant here date
from the '60s and early '70s and are oil-fired -- from before the oil
shock). IMO heat pumps (heat exchangers) don't count, as they tend ot
heat only one room/space.

Quoted message said:

Curious, also... What do the WHO
guidlines specify?

Couldn't find the guideline itself in a quick search; found the
following statement on a Statistics NZ website:

"The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends an indoor temperature of
at least 18 degrees Celsius, or 21 degrees if a home houses elderly,
young or disabled people. A third of New Zealand houses are below this
recommendation."

Quoted message said:

What are the conditions typically found in homes there?

A lot of houses are cooler than that; if they're insulated at all it's
usually only the walls. There's a strong streak of "put a jersey on
rather than the heater", especially in poorer households, as they can't
necessarily afford to heat the house to WHO standards. Being
uninsulated just makes that harder, of course. (The "put a jersey on"
mentality is good from a conservation point of view but if the internal
temperature of the house is too low and/or the house is damp, it's not
going to do you any good healthwise.)

Quoted message said:

Yes, without proper insulation, heating and/or cooling costs can increase
dramatically.

Don't I know it. The insulation here is dreadful. When we buy a house
(we're currently renting) we're going to upgrade the insulation, as it's
more or less bound to be [censored].

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 02:37:06p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:18:53p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
unnecessary illness from cold and damp.

Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.

Quoted message said:

Since I don't have a clue, Miche, is central heating and central
cooling a common or uncommon thing in NZ?

Unusual, yeah. I don't know a private house here that has it (or, if
they do have it, uses it -- most of the units still extant here date
from the '60s and early '70s and are oil-fired -- from before the oil
shock). IMO heat pumps (heat exchangers) don't count, as they tend ot
heat only one room/space.

Quoted message said:

Curious, also... What do the WHO guidlines specify?

Couldn't find the guideline itself in a quick search; found the
following statement on a Statistics NZ website:

"The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends an indoor temperature of
at least 18 degrees Celsius, or 21 degrees if a home houses elderly,
young or disabled people. A third of New Zealand houses are below this
recommendation."

Quoted message said:

What are the conditions typically found in homes there?

A lot of houses are cooler than that; if they're insulated at all it's
usually only the walls. There's a strong streak of "put a jersey on
rather than the heater", especially in poorer households, as they can't
necessarily afford to heat the house to WHO standards. Being
uninsulated just makes that harder, of course. (The "put a jersey on"
mentality is good from a conservation point of view but if the internal
temperature of the house is too low and/or the house is damp, it's not
going to do you any good healthwise.)

Quoted message said:

Yes, without proper insulation, heating and/or cooling costs can
increase dramatically.

Don't I know it. The insulation here is dreadful. When we buy a house
(we're currently renting) we're going to upgrade the insulation, as it's
more or less bound to be [censored].

Miche

I think, in general, that the US has been "more advanced" than many
countries when it comes to insulation, heating, and cooling, although I'm
sure we have our share of sub-standard conditions in some areas. At least
I think the US became more proactive with these issues earlier. Adequate
central heating, for example, was not at all uncommon as early as the 1940s
or earlier. Insulation became an important issue in the late 1950s/early
1960s. I would hazard a guess that there are more homes in the US that
have central air conditioning than in any other country, but I could be
wrong about that. In our personal case, we tend to maintain a constant
interior temperature of 73-75 degrees F. year round. In colder US
climates, I think many people will let the winter temperature drop in the
house to the mid-60 degree mark. IIRC, when we lived in Ohio, we usually
kept our house at around 68 degrees F.

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
______________________________________________________________

OK, I'm weird ! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 02:37:06p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne Boatwright said:

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:18:53p, Miche meant to say...

Quoted message said:

> NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
> tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
> are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
> unnecessary illness from cold and damp.
>
> Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.

Quoted message said:

Since I don't have a clue, Miche, is central heating and central
cooling a common or uncommon thing in NZ?

Unusual, yeah. I don't know a private house here that has it (or, if
they do have it, uses it -- most of the units still extant here date
from the '60s and early '70s and are oil-fired -- from before the oil
shock). IMO heat pumps (heat exchangers) don't count, as they tend ot
heat only one room/space.

Quoted message said:

Curious, also... What do the WHO guidlines specify?

Couldn't find the guideline itself in a quick search; found the
following statement on a Statistics NZ website:

"The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends an indoor temperature of
at least 18 degrees Celsius, or 21 degrees if a home houses elderly,
young or disabled people. A third of New Zealand houses are below this
recommendation."

Quoted message said:

What are the conditions typically found in homes there?

A lot of houses are cooler than that; if they're insulated at all it's
usually only the walls. There's a strong streak of "put a jersey on
rather than the heater", especially in poorer households, as they can't
necessarily afford to heat the house to WHO standards. Being
uninsulated just makes that harder, of course. (The "put a jersey on"
mentality is good from a conservation point of view but if the internal
temperature of the house is too low and/or the house is damp, it's not
going to do you any good healthwise.)

Quoted message said:

Yes, without proper insulation, heating and/or cooling costs can
increase dramatically.

Don't I know it. The insulation here is dreadful. When we buy a house
(we're currently renting) we're going to upgrade the insulation, as it's
more or less bound to be [censored].

I think, in general, that the US has been "more advanced" than many
countries when it comes to insulation, heating, and cooling, although I'm
sure we have our share of sub-standard conditions in some areas. At least
I think the US became more proactive with these issues earlier. Adequate
central heating, for example, was not at all uncommon as early as the 1940s
or earlier. Insulation became an important issue in the late 1950s/early
1960s. I would hazard a guess that there are more homes in the US that
have central air conditioning than in any other country, but I could be
wrong about that. In our personal case, we tend to maintain a constant
interior temperature of 73-75 degrees F. year round. In colder US
climates, I think many people will let the winter temperature drop in the
house to the mid-60 degree mark. IIRC, when we lived in Ohio, we usually
kept our house at around 68 degrees F.

68F is 20C, which is right where the WHO wants it. Perception here is
that houses in the US are "too hot" but that's just because ours are too
cold.

People are starting to get the message here as power prices go up,
though, and that can only be a good thing.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases