value of a custom frame

Quoted message said:

Stephen Harding said:

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?
I don't have many personal data points to adequately base my
judgment, but it seems that might a be a significant part of
wanting a custom frame.

Will said:

What about the people who really love bikes, who see bikes as really
cool machines and appreciate beautiful craftsmanship?
I'll take a bike snob any day over the fellow who parks his big S class
on the curb and then scouts around to see who's watching.

What's a Sclass?

I don't have any problem with guys who own nice equipment
and ride only a few weekends a year.
I do grit my teeth this time of year when bikes are pulled
out of snowbanks with orange chain and all cables solid. The
owner typically wants us to "Fix everything and keep it
under $10".

Uh, right. . .
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

There are a lot of definitions of "custom". First, there is
semi-custom, e.g. like paramounts of the 1970's, stock geometry but
you can "have it your way" if you really insist.

Today Mercian will make you any of 12 geometry and lug mixes with any
of 7 tubing combos for a total of 84 possible bikes - at least -
and custom geometry is also available.

Then thee are builders like Llewelyn Cycles, Brian Baylis, and David
Bohm's Bohemian Bicycles. In these cases, you are basically asking
for something like a Renior, and if it rides like [censored] it can still be
a raging success just mounted on your wall ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

And finally, and this does come down a bit to "snob appeal", some people
simply want to spend more money. It appeals to them to have something far
more expensive, and thus exclusive on the basis of cost alone, than the next
person.

Penn & Teller, the magicians, have a cable-TV "expose" show called
"[censored]!". One recent episode was dedicated to Americans' obsession
with "the best". They made a number of points: there is no such thing as
"the best", most people wouldn't know good from lousy if you wrapped
it in enough hype, and seeking/buying "the best" takes a lot of time
and, in the end, makes people less happy.

David said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH, with a custom frame, you have a bike made *for* you, with input
*from* you, painted in the color of *your* choice, free from garish,
over-size logos plastered all over the frame, and built with the exact
parts of your choice.

That's a rather bold statement. In reality, I had been in the industry
for so long and had seen some people who bought into the custom bike
myth usually ending up hating their bikes. This was true with either
inexperienced and experienced riders.

Some, ususally-big words\, not in my experience tho.

Quoted message said:

The people who buy into the custom bike myth is usually the same people
who strive for perfection.

Disagree. Some like the idea of a bicycle frame and then bike made for
them, period. Unique, one of a kind, type thing.

They don't want to make a single mistake in

Quoted message said:

bike fit and that's understable. $2000 + for a custom bike -- you
better like it. It's not a mistake most of us can afford to make. But
I think, bike fit is being oversold by a lot of the custom bike makers.

Bike fit is the most important thing in a bicycle purchase. Just cuz
most bike shops can't do bike fits does not minimize it's importance.
MORE important than anything else by a wide margin. No myth. We do
current bike fits all day long on people that get 'stock' bikes that
are not close to fitting them. They come in cuz it hurts to ride and
they are about to take up tennis or golf.

Quoted message said:

In reality, many stock frame makers are now making sizes available for
people who usually don't fit the normal mold of things. Custom paint
is also being oversold by a lot of makers too. Yes, nice paint job
certainly look nice. I remember that in the 80s, colored suits and
clothes were the fad at the time. Remember what Don Johnson of Miami
Vice wore at the time? Cool then, but pretty cheesy now. What is hit
then is not necessarily cool today. If you try wearing 80s wear today,
you'll probably be greeted by a lot of strange looks.
Yes, cool paint jobs are great to look at, but color is like fashion.
What's popular today is old fashion by tommorrow.

Yep, a red bicycle today probably was not in fashion in the 80s...huh?
We are talking about bicycle paint, not bell bottoms.

Quoted message said:

So what if they buy into this myth that they believe, the $2000 + bike
will last them for a lifetime. Most of the time, I see them
hibernating in their garage after 5 or so years. The problem is, most
custom bikes are made by traditional means and materials. There is
nothing wrong with that, except there are mass production bike
companies like Guru for instance which also use traditional means to
build modern bikes that are lighter, cooler to look at and sometimes
provide a nicer ride.

ahhhhwe are getting to the bottom of this-lighter and cooler...sorry,
not the reason to biuy a bike IMO. 'sometimes' provides a better ride
and sometimes, not. Sometimes fits but mosttimes, from most bike shops,
does not fit.

I had seen way too many people who left their

Quoted message said:

custom bikes in pursuit of those nicer Optimo or Carbone framed bikes
with fancy boutique paired spokes wheels. You know, peer pressure in
mass riders can sometimes get the best of some of us, plus their riding
style and posture may have changed too.

Bing, bing, bing, we have a winner. Spoken like a true bike shop guy
that sells over the counter, mass produced gadgetry...carbon, paired
spokes, all sorts of things that 'may' work if they were designed,
assembled better and then fitted to a customer.

Quoted message said:

To me, the key to buying a custom frame is that, it must fit "BETTER"
than any available STOCK frame sold in the market today. If it does
provide the same fit as a stock frame, then why go custom?

See above, I got a custom Mondonico cuz I could. If the custom process
is proper, how can it not fit better than a standard bicycle?

Stock frame = Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale.....mostly. The bike
shops here in the republic that sell these have no idea how to do bike
fit. It's the 'stand over, ride around the parking lot, how do ya want
to pay for that' type fit...even on bicycles pushing $6000+.

The 'stock' bicycle market is and has been in trouble for years. Even
the "Lance effect' hasn't changed that.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

The people who buy into the custom bike myth is usually the same people
who strive for perfection.

Disagree. Some like the idea of a bicycle frame and then bike made for
them, period. Unique, one of a kind, type thing.

Peter,

If the bike is custom designed to be a unique one of a kind type
thing, then it's really not a a bike but rather a piece of art readily
to be admired don't you think? We are talking about a custom frame
that is built to be ridden not mounted on the wall.

If the custom frame is designed with a triangular shaped front end,
that is not custom. The triangle front end had been around for
hundreds of years, proven to be a reliable design. The only thing
custom are minor alterations on the basic frame design to address
customer's unique requests.
But how many customers have unique requests? Probably a lot of
probably a few.
Would I call that unique? Not really, because in the end, it's just a
normal bike with minor custom alterations and a unique paint job and a
name engraved on the tube somewhere.

Will it be a perfect bike for the job the customer wanted it for to
do? Sure it will, because that's what he or she wanted.

Will it be saleable in the future after that task is completed?
Probably very hard, because what one puts great value on these custom
alterations, others won't.

Quoted message said:

Bike fit is the most important thing in a bicycle purchase. Just cuz
most bike shops can't do bike fits does not minimize it's importance.
MORE important than anything else by a wide margin. No myth. We do
current bike fits all day long on people that get 'stock' bikes that
are not close to fitting them. They come in cuz it hurts to ride and
they are about to take up tennis or golf.

It's good that you offer this in your store. We have 2 stores here
that do the same free of charge on other stock bikes not sold by them
if they are not busy. So, I don't see a reason why people would
really need to go custom, unless for some specific tasks and body
dimensions.

Unfortunately, as you may have indicated, that people buy stock bikes
that don't fit them -- they should. Which means, there are shops out
there that don't offer these services. The smart ones would obviously
come to your store after a painful hiatus with their bikes. But do
all of them come to seek your expertise?

Quoted message said:

Yep, a red bicycle today probably was not in fashion in the 80s...huh?
We are talking about bicycle paint, not bell bottoms.

I need of a customer who was sold on a custom red Dion tri bike. This
is a custom bike. We saw the whole fit was totally wrong. It was
made to ride with a rearward seating position -- tribikes usually are
forward seating based! She could have been well-fitted with a Felt
S32 with some minor alterations and be well with it. Will cost half
too. But you know, she saw the video how custom bikes are unique and
how nice they ride. In the end, it all comes to the builder. How can
a builder be good at building a perfect tri bike, race bike, mountain
bike and a touring bike. You need to be good to understand the finer
points of what specific people need if you have been doing all of
these things correct?

Quoted message said:

Stock frame = Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale.....mostly. The bike
shops here in the republic that sell these have no idea how to do bike
fit. It's the 'stand over, ride around the parking lot, how do ya want
to pay for that' type fit...even on bicycles pushing $6000+.

The 'stock' bicycle market is and has been in trouble for years. Even
the "Lance effect' hasn't changed that.

We are lucky to have 2 stores that sell these stock frames and offer
proper frame fitting. One is a road store and another a tri specific
store. And as I said earlier, some towns and cities don't have good
stores to offer good fitting, so what are you going to do?

David.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And finally, and this does come down a bit to "snob appeal", some people
simply want to spend more money. It appeals to them to have something far
more expensive, and thus exclusive on the basis of cost alone, than the
next person.

Penn & Teller, the magicians, have a cable-TV "expose" show called
"[censored]!". One recent episode was dedicated to Americans' obsession with
"the best". They made a number of points: there is no such thing as "the
best", most people wouldn't know good from lousy if you wrapped it in
enough hype, and seeking/buying "the best" takes a lot of time and, in the
end, makes people less happy.

Some people get more involved in the process than the use of whatever it is
they're looking into. A good example of a total time-waster for me is
flying. I research everything this-way, that-way, backward & forward each
time I fly, to make sure I get the best-possible (there's that "best" word!)
seat. Fairly easy if it's just me flying, not so easy when it's with the
family (since I'm the only one with status on an airline). Still, I'll spend
a good amount of time on flyertalk.com, seatguru.com and ual.com checking
everything out in advance, and then spending yet more time making sure my
seats didn't change due to a "sweep." All for a flight that might last
typically 4-5 hours. At most.

But getting back to the idea of a "best"- that's a relative thing, which
will be something different for different people. That doesn't mean the
concept is invalid, it just means that it's not a universal absolute. Penn &
Teller can make a comedy show out of it, but that doesn't mean people can't
appreciate something that's better (or more appropriate, for them) than
something else. The reason people can't, in most cases, is because they're
not trained in what to look for. They learn from commercials, because that's
their primary exposure to product. Or they look to the Internet, which can
almost be worse, because opinions are so diverse and easy to find that you
can support just about any belief you have and present "proof" from the
Internet.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

And finally, and this does come down a bit to "snob appeal", some people
simply want to spend more money. It appeals to them to have something far
more expensive, and thus exclusive on the basis of cost alone, than the
next person.

Penn & Teller, the magicians, have a cable-TV "expose" show called
"[censored]!". One recent episode was dedicated to Americans' obsession with
"the best". They made a number of points: there is no such thing as "the
best", most people wouldn't know good from lousy if you wrapped it in
enough hype, and seeking/buying "the best" takes a lot of time and, in the
end, makes people less happy.

Quoted message said:

Stock frame = Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale.....mostly. The bike
shops here in the republic that sell these have no idea how to do bike
fit. It's the 'stand over, ride around the parking lot, how do ya want
to pay for that' type fit...even on bicycles pushing $6000+.

Obviously (or perhaps not?), not all shops selling the major lines are
clueless about bike fit. I know of a number who take great care to properly
set up bikes for their customers... and I know of many who don't. Is there
truly no dealer who you know personally who sells one of the major bike
lines and does a good job with fitting people?

Quoted message said:

The 'stock' bicycle market is and has been in trouble for years. Even
the "Lance effect' hasn't changed that.

The "Lance effect" likely has no effect whatsoever on people getting
properly fit for road bikes. Might, in fact, have had the opposite, as more
dealers decided to sell road bikes, without any prior expertise in doing so,
just because they're the "in" thing. It's likely that the dealers who have
been selling road bikes for a very long time do a better job with fit than
the newbies looking to get into the latest craze.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH, with a custom frame, you have a bike made *for* you, with input
*from* you, painted in the color of *your* choice, free from garish,
over-size logos plastered all over the frame, and built with the exact
parts of your choice.

That's a rather bold statement. In reality, I had been in the industry
for so long and had seen some people who bought into the custom bike
myth usually ending up hating their bikes. This was true with either
inexperienced and experienced riders.

Some, ususally-big words\, not in my experience tho.

Quoted message said:

The people who buy into the custom bike myth is usually the same people
who strive for perfection.

Disagree. Some like the idea of a bicycle frame and then bike made for
them, period. Unique, one of a kind, type thing.

They don't want to make a single mistake in

Quoted message said:

bike fit and that's understable. $2000 + for a custom bike -- you
better like it. It's not a mistake most of us can afford to make. But
I think, bike fit is being oversold by a lot of the custom bike makers.

Bike fit is the most important thing in a bicycle purchase. Just cuz
most bike shops can't do bike fits does not minimize it's importance.
MORE important than anything else by a wide margin. No myth. We do
current bike fits all day long on people that get 'stock' bikes that
are not close to fitting them. They come in cuz it hurts to ride and
they are about to take up tennis or golf.

Quoted message said:

In reality, many stock frame makers are now making sizes available for
people who usually don't fit the normal mold of things. Custom paint
is also being oversold by a lot of makers too. Yes, nice paint job
certainly look nice. I remember that in the 80s, colored suits and
clothes were the fad at the time. Remember what Don Johnson of Miami
Vice wore at the time? Cool then, but pretty cheesy now. What is hit
then is not necessarily cool today. If you try wearing 80s wear today,
you'll probably be greeted by a lot of strange looks.
Yes, cool paint jobs are great to look at, but color is like fashion.
What's popular today is old fashion by tommorrow.

Yep, a red bicycle today probably was not in fashion in the 80s...huh?
We are talking about bicycle paint, not bell bottoms.

Quoted message said:

So what if they buy into this myth that they believe, the $2000 + bike
will last them for a lifetime. Most of the time, I see them
hibernating in their garage after 5 or so years. The problem is, most
custom bikes are made by traditional means and materials. There is
nothing wrong with that, except there are mass production bike
companies like Guru for instance which also use traditional means to
build modern bikes that are lighter, cooler to look at and sometimes
provide a nicer ride.

ahhhhwe are getting to the bottom of this-lighter and cooler...sorry,
not the reason to biuy a bike IMO. 'sometimes' provides a better ride
and sometimes, not. Sometimes fits but mosttimes, from most bike shops,
does not fit.

I had seen way too many people who left their

Quoted message said:

custom bikes in pursuit of those nicer Optimo or Carbone framed bikes
with fancy boutique paired spokes wheels. You know, peer pressure in
mass riders can sometimes get the best of some of us, plus their riding
style and posture may have changed too.

Bing, bing, bing, we have a winner. Spoken like a true bike shop guy
that sells over the counter, mass produced gadgetry...carbon, paired
spokes, all sorts of things that 'may' work if they were designed,
assembled better and then fitted to a customer.

Quoted message said:

To me, the key to buying a custom frame is that, it must fit "BETTER"
than any available STOCK frame sold in the market today. If it does
provide the same fit as a stock frame, then why go custom?

See above, I got a custom Mondonico cuz I could. If the custom process
is proper, how can it not fit better than a standard bicycle?

Stock frame = Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale.....mostly. The bike
shops here in the republic that sell these have no idea how to do bike
fit. It's the 'stand over, ride around the parking lot, how do ya want
to pay for that' type fit...even on bicycles pushing $6000+.

The 'stock' bicycle market is and has been in trouble for years. Even
the "Lance effect' hasn't changed that.