value of a custom frame

Zix said:

Hi folks,

There's a local bike frame maker, a small shop,
where they make custom frames for people
based on body dimensions. I once was told by
an obsessive rider that doing this really does help.

I don't think my body is especially oddly dimensioned
per se, but I do somewhat feel that if I'm going to
invest in a good bike, costing over US$1000,
I might as well pay something extra for the custom job
in part because I'm done growing (long ago) and
whatever I buy will most likely fit me like a glove for life.
Plus, if there is someone who can do it well,
it might be nice to support a craftsman.

My question for you all is, what do you feel
(or know) would be an appropriate surcharge
for such a thing. I ask this especially because
for years I've been trying to find the time to take
a welding course ($300 perhaps), so if the answer
were a very large number I would just do that
and start planning to make my own frame.

Thanks.

I was lucky enough in the USN to go to Hong Kong more than once. I am a
pretty standard 42L suit kinda guy, I can buy a suit, when I needed to
wear those things, pretty easy at Men's Warehouse but it sure was nice
to go to Mr Manning on the Kowloon side and have him make me suits,
sport jackets and shirts, custom made. Same for a bicycle frame. Sure
there are lots of standard frames out there that will fit and work and
be fine and dandy but having one made for you by a reputable buiolder
sure is nice.

David Damerell said:

Quoting Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I think it possible to politely disagree and engage in constructive
debate.

By saying how bicycles have souls and exclaiming "you just don't GET IT"
whenever you're asked to quantify that?

Perhaps the word "character" would work better for you? In this
context, I pretty much view "soul" and "character" as interchangeable.

Quoted message said:

Hell, I don't think _people_ have souls, so I'm a little mystified about
this one myself.

Well, I didn't mean to introduce religion, etc., into this. Sorry.

Quoting Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

David Damerell said:

Quoting Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I think it possible to politely disagree and engage in constructive
debate.

By saying how bicycles have souls and exclaiming "you just don't GET IT"
whenever you're asked to quantify that?

Perhaps the word "character" would work better for you?

Well, I know what you mean, but the original question was about a bicycle
that's marginally heavier and more reliable, not a "characterful" one; and
that you were willing to immediately clarify for me while subjecting JT to
endless rounds of "you just don't GET IT" suggests that you are not in
fact extending the olive branch to him.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Brieday, March.

David Damerell said:

Quoting Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

David Damerell said:

Quoting Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]>:
>I think it possible to politely disagree and engage in constructive
>debate.
By saying how bicycles have souls and exclaiming "you just don't GET IT"
whenever you're asked to quantify that?

Perhaps the word "character" would work better for you?

Well, I know what you mean, but the original question was about a bicycle
that's marginally heavier and more reliable, not a "characterful" one

Actually, that particular exchange resulted when I opined the high end
Treks were soulless and faceless. Or better said, perhaps, lacking in
character.

Quoted message said:

and
that you were willing to immediately clarify for me while subjecting JT to
endless rounds of "you just don't GET IT" suggests that you are not in
fact extending the olive branch to him.

Two things:

1) that exchange was from 3/22, the sincere attempt to end the silly
hostility was made on 3/23.

2) you have never engaged in the kind of behavior toward me (and
others) that Tomlinson has; calling people a "liar" and "deceptive"
totally without cause and then just ducking out of the thread for
awhile when asked to provide evidence for the allegations. So, yes, my
attitude and behavior toward you is markedly different.

Anyway, I'm glad we cleared the soul thing up.

David Damerell said:

By saying how bicycles have souls and exclaiming "you just don't GET IT"
whenever you're asked to quantify that?

Quoted message said:

Hell, I don't think _people_ have souls, so I'm a little mystified about
this one myself.

Well if people don't have souls does that leave a whole bunch of extra
leftover souls available that bikes can use ?? *grin*.

- Don "believes in bike souls" Gillies
San Diego, CA

Ozark Bicycle said:

David Damerell said:

Quoting Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I think it possible to politely disagree and engage in constructive
debate.

By saying how bicycles have souls and exclaiming "you just don't GET IT"
whenever you're asked to quantify that?

Perhaps the word "character" would work better for you? In this
context, I pretty much view "soul" and "character" as interchangeable.

Quoted message said:

Hell, I don't think _people_ have souls, so I'm a little mystified about
this one myself.

Well, I didn't mean to introduce religion, etc., into this. Sorry.

I think well made, handbuilt steel frames have a little 'soul' of the
builder. My Mondonico certainly does, as did my DeRosas, my Merckxs.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

David Damerell said:

Quoting Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]>:
>I think it possible to politely disagree and engage in constructive
>debate.

By saying how bicycles have souls and exclaiming "you just don't GET IT"
whenever you're asked to quantify that?

Perhaps the word "character" would work better for you? In this
context, I pretty much view "soul" and "character" as interchangeable.

Quoted message said:

Hell, I don't think _people_ have souls, so I'm a little mystified about
this one myself.

Well, I didn't mean to introduce religion, etc., into this. Sorry.

I think well made, handbuilt steel frames have a little 'soul' of the
builder. My Mondonico certainly does, as did my DeRosas, my Merckxs.

Exactly!

David wrote:

<snipped>

Quoted message said:

I can only think of 2 main reasons why people go for custom..

1, Asthetics (the art, the lugs, the paint job and ofcourse your name
painted on or laser engraved stamped and clear coated on the top tube
or chain stays!)

2, Proportionate geometry. This is especially useful for small and
short women or men.

Perhaps there are other reasons, as well. If you look at the production
bicycle market today, what do you get for spending more than, say $2000
(Yes, this is arbitrary. Feel free to pick another figure, higher or
lower)? Probably just some minimal weight savings (6 seconds per pound
up a long, steep hill!), the appearence of "higher tech", and, maybe,
components with more "prestige" that really do not function any better
than the next group down the line.

Now, what does that CFRP wonder become in, say, 5-10 years? "Obsolete"
,"Yesterday's news", etc.

OTOH, with a custom frame, you have a bike made *for* you, with input
*from* you, painted in the color of *your* choice, free from garish,
over-size logos plastered all over the frame, and built with the exact
parts of your choice.

And, 5-10 years from now, it will still be a hand-crafted bicycle, made
by a craftsman, and not popped out of a mold somewhere.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.,etc., etc.

Quoted message said:

OTOH, with a custom frame, you have a bike made *for* you, with input
*from* you, painted in the color of *your* choice, free from garish,
over-size logos plastered all over the frame, and built with the exact
parts of your choice.

That's a rather bold statement. In reality, I had been in the industry
for so long and had seen some people who bought into the custom bike
myth usually ending up hating their bikes. This was true with either
inexperienced and experienced riders.

The people who buy into the custom bike myth is usually the same people
who strive for perfection. They don't want to make a single mistake in
bike fit and that's understable. $2000 + for a custom bike -- you
better like it. It's not a mistake most of us can afford to make. But
I think, bike fit is being oversold by a lot of the custom bike makers.
In reality, many stock frame makers are now making sizes available for
people who usually don't fit the normal mold of things. Custom paint
is also being oversold by a lot of makers too. Yes, nice paint job
certainly look nice. I remember that in the 80s, colored suits and
clothes were the fad at the time. Remember what Don Johnson of Miami
Vice wore at the time? Cool then, but pretty cheesy now. What is hit
then is not necessarily cool today. If you try wearing 80s wear today,
you'll probably be greeted by a lot of strange looks.
Yes, cool paint jobs are great to look at, but color is like fashion.
What's popular today is old fashion by tommorrow.

So what if they buy into this myth that they believe, the $2000 + bike
will last them for a lifetime. Most of the time, I see them
hibernating in their garage after 5 or so years. The problem is, most
custom bikes are made by traditional means and materials. There is
nothing wrong with that, except there are mass production bike
companies like Guru for instance which also use traditional means to
build modern bikes that are lighter, cooler to look at and sometimes
provide a nicer ride. I had seen way too many people who left their
custom bikes in pursuit of those nicer Optimo or Carbone framed bikes
with fancy boutique paired spokes wheels. You know, peer pressure in
mass riders can sometimes get the best of some of us, plus their riding
style and posture may have changed too.

To me, the key to buying a custom frame is that, it must fit "BETTER"
than any available STOCK frame sold in the market today. If it does
provide the same fit as a stock frame, then why go custom?

David.

Quoted message said:

Suggesting this is one area where the small-run facility can top the
big guys. That's "can", of course. And it costs extra time/money.
Another possible "quality" marker: pretty welds on Ti bikes. I have a
Ti bike, known maker, works great, and with personal production welding
experience (if in steel only), I know there isn't any practical
difference, but the welds are not cosmetically comparable (country
mile) to a couple of Sevens and Serottas I've eyeballed. I'm guessing
the S's pay their welders more... PIO not affected here, and it's
painted anyhow.

Most bike frames usually break at the weld points. This is more so
with poorly welded Ti frames. Contaminated Ti weld will break under
repeated abuse and use. So it's crucially that strict and good QA on
Ti welding must be adhered to. That's also why, Ti frames are still a
bit pricier.

Good asthetics is a function of build art. Cannondale's ALU welds are
some of the nicest in the industry. My Canadian made touring bike, a
copy of Cannondale's ST series is made just as strong, but not as
pretty to look at compared to my friend's Cannondale R1000 or T2000.
But then, you get what you paid for.

And besides, frame will perform well for what they are designed for..

David.

David said:

Quoted message said:

To me, the key to buying a custom frame is that, it must fit "BETTER"
than any available STOCK frame sold in the market today. If it does
provide the same fit as a stock frame, then why go custom?

This is something I deal with on a regular basis... many potential
customers
approach me for a "custom" frame. I'd guess that I try to talk at
least half
of them OUT of going custom, simply because it becomes evident that
they
would gain nothing by going custom, since they would fit on a stock
frame
with a "normal" stem and seat post.

Others want to go the custom route to incorporate other changes - like
a
sloping top tube or longer chainstays or fender/rack mount bosses, etc.
For others, it's not a fit issue, but one of matching the bike to the
type of
riding they'll be doing by altering the geometry - perhaps steepening
the
head tube angle or lowering the bottom bracket height.

Others are just detail-oriented enough to want odd things like S-shaped
seatstays and straight chainstays (or vice versa).

But most are just looking for the right fit, and for most of us
relatively
normal* people that doesn't require a custom frame.

* fit-wise - there are very few "normal people" around here....

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Quoted message said:

This is something I deal with on a regular basis... many potential customers
approach me for a "custom" frame. I'd guess that I try to talk at least half
of them OUT of going custom, simply because it becomes evident that they
would gain nothing by going custom, since they would fit on a stock frame
with a "normal" stem and seat post.

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?

I don't have many personal data points to adequately base my
judgment, but it seems that might a be a significant part of
wanting a custom frame.

Although probably difficult to pinpoint "snob reasons" for a
custom frame, I might suspect such reasoning if the person
could offer no specific "customization" reason for the frame.

A person who would fit a standard sized frame well, or who
wasn't looking for some specific geometry, or component sizing
modification for some reason, and who continued to insist on
going custom despite being told standard would meet his needs,
might be a candidate for wanting a frame for snob reasons.

What percent of that "at least half" of persons you attempt to
talk out of going custom from lack of real need, still make that
choice anyways?

SMH

Stephen Harding said:

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?

Sounds about right. A buddy of mine (a doctor) ordered an expensive
custom Spectrum titanium Super with full Campy Record and Neutron
wheels, had them paint it an ugly green-to-blue fade, and, of course,
inscribe his name on the top tube.
He took delivery in November, didn't even mount the pedals until April,
then rode it less than 1,000 miles over the next three years.

"As you get older, some of us won't be able to maintain that nice and
low riding posture any longer."

Yes, I am 66yo, and have recently been "refitted" to my Lemond which I
bought in 1999, requiring changes(raising) in stem height. I suppose
at some time, I will need a more radical readjustment - maybe?

I doubt many folks actually have a bicycle that "fits for life" - they
are lucky if they do.

Stephen Harding said:

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?

I don't have many personal data points to adequately base my
judgment, but it seems that might a be a significant part of
wanting a custom frame.

What about the people who really love bikes, who see bikes as really
cool machines and appreciate beautiful craftsmanship?

I'll take a bike snob any day over the fellow who parks his big S class
on the curb and then scouts around to see who's watching.

On 26 Mar 2006 06:26:57 -0800, "Colorado Bicycler" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"As you get older, some of us won't be able to maintain that nice and
low riding posture any longer."

Yes, I am 66yo, and have recently been "refitted" to my Lemond which I
bought in 1999, requiring changes(raising) in stem height. I suppose
at some time, I will need a more radical readjustment - maybe?

We have a few stores here that do just that -- refit people on their
older bikes. And yes, at some point in time, you may require a new
frame. The good news is that, most of your other road components can
be migrated over to the new frame, except maybe the fork. That will
save you a bit of money, especially for people on a fixed income plus
allowing you to continue using your existing good parts.

David.

On 26 Mar 2006 07:02:01 -0800, "Will" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Stephen Harding said:

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?

I don't have many personal data points to adequately base my
judgment, but it seems that might a be a significant part of
wanting a custom frame.

What about the people who really love bikes, who see bikes as really
cool machines and appreciate beautiful craftsmanship?

I know of people who spend more than $10,000 on a beautifully crafted
Hetchins, only to end up riding them for a few miles and than got
framed up on a wall. I see nothing wrong with that either, because
people who have a lot of money can do anything they want and they see
$10,000 like we see a $1000.

I agree with the snob appeal, or maybe woman's appeal with custom
frame to a certain point. I think the main reason people want to go
custom is that, a lack of a friendly professional fitting service that
are routinely offered by other good bike shops in other areas and not
in theirs may have something to do with it.

David.

Will said:

Stephen Harding said:

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?

I don't have many personal data points to adequately base my
judgment, but it seems that might a be a significant part of
wanting a custom frame.

What about the people who really love bikes, who see bikes as really
cool machines and appreciate beautiful craftsmanship?

I'll take a bike snob any day over the fellow who parks his big S class
on the curb and then scouts around to see who's watching.

What's the difference?

Peter Cole said:

Will said:

Stephen Harding said:

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?

I don't have many personal data points to adequately base my
judgment, but it seems that might a be a significant part of
wanting a custom frame.

What about the people who really love bikes, who see bikes as really
cool machines and appreciate beautiful craftsmanship?

I'll take a bike snob any day over the fellow who parks his big S class
on the curb and then scouts around to see who's watching.

What's the difference?

About $499/month with attractive lease financing.

JT

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Quoted message said:

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?

"Snob appeal" is kinda harsh. Some people place a value on having something
that's unique to them, something that is not quite exactly the same as
anyone else has. This doesn't have much appeal to me, at least not for a
bicycle, but it does for some. You might as well question why someone would
own an original work of art rather than a functional reproduction.

But while I have no problem with that aspect of the appeal of a "custom"
frame, I do question them from a functional standpoint. In many cases,
people think they know more frame design than somebody who's been doing it
for years, and end up with something that's simply not as workable (even
from a fit standpoint) as an off-the-rack bike might have been. There are
reasons, for example, that you have certain fork offsets matched to head
tube angles, and why head tube angles change with frame size, and those rare
situations where they should be varied are better understood by a bike
designer, who's tried an awful lot of things and seen what works and what
doesn't, than an individual who believes that everything people have been
doing so far is wrong, that it's all a compromise for expediency etc.

And there's also the issue that many of the technological advances that have
come to modern frame construction simply don't lend themselves to one-off
designs, so you don't have the full range of materials and techniques
available to you when you go the custom route.

And finally, and this does come down a bit to "snob appeal", some people
simply want to spend more money. It appeals to them to have something far
more expensive, and thus exclusive on the basis of cost alone, than the next
person. I have trouble relating to that customer, which, on the one hand,
could be unfortunate because such customers could obviously be quite
profitable. On the other hand, you can't be all things to all people, and
sacrificing that customer and choosing instead to concentrate on the far
greater numbers of people interested in more cost-effective (which doesn't
preclude fairly high-end) solutions has served us very well over the years.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Stephen Harding" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%XvVf.82$Bf.68@trndny06...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is something I deal with on a regular basis... many potential
customers
approach me for a "custom" frame. I'd guess that I try to talk at least
half
of them OUT of going custom, simply because it becomes evident that they
would gain nothing by going custom, since they would fit on a stock frame
with a "normal" stem and seat post.

Have you ever encountered the "snob appeal" reason for wanting
a custom frame?

I don't have many personal data points to adequately base my
judgment, but it seems that might a be a significant part of
wanting a custom frame.

Although probably difficult to pinpoint "snob reasons" for a
custom frame, I might suspect such reasoning if the person
could offer no specific "customization" reason for the frame.

A person who would fit a standard sized frame well, or who
wasn't looking for some specific geometry, or component sizing
modification for some reason, and who continued to insist on
going custom despite being told standard would meet his needs,
might be a candidate for wanting a frame for snob reasons.

What percent of that "at least half" of persons you attempt to
talk out of going custom from lack of real need, still make that
choice anyways?

SMH