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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
12 August 2007
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26 October 2007
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Ken Hardy
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  1. Dan,

    Here's the recommended schedule from the Runner's World Smart Coach.
    I've been following this one. It was based on my previous 10M pace of
    7:16

    M T W T F S S Total
    6 5 5 10 26
    6 5 5 12 28
    5 5 5 14 29
    6 6 6 6 24
    5 6 4 16 31
    4 7 3 18 32
    4 6 4 20 34
    7 7 7 6 27
    6 7 6 16 35
    5 8 4 20 37
    8 7 7 16 38
    8 8 7 7 30
    7 6 7 20 40
    6 8 5 12 31
    4 5 4 8 21
    3 5 3 26 37

    I just finished the 35M week.

    I looked it over to see where I could add some miles as you suggested,
    but I can't get to 50 without adding more than 10% per week. Run on
    some off days?

    Here what I got...
    M T W T F S S Total
    6 5 5 10 26
    6 5 5 12 28
    5 5 5 14 29
    6 6 6 6 24
    5 6 4 16 31
    4 7 3 18 32
    4 6 4 20 34
    7 7 7 6 27
    6 7 6 16 35
    6 9 5 20 40
    9 8 8 16 41
    10 10 9 10 39
    8 10 10 20 48
    6 8 5 12 31
    4 5 4 8 21
    3 5 3 26 37

    What do you think? Too much, too little?

    Ken

  2. <Ken Hardy> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I just finished the 35M week.

    I looked it over to see where I could add some miles as you suggested,
    but I can't get to 50 without adding more than 10% per week. Run on
    some off days?

    Jeez, I feel ambivalent about luring you away from this program into
    stronger stuff, but I'll follow the "Do ask, Do Tell" rule...

    OK, to get to 50ish miles, I would add in a 7 miler (reall easy) in one of
    your off days, and add a few more here and there on other days. Keep an off
    day after the longest run of the week, though.

    You can increase 20% per week *if you slow down 30-45 sec/mile on all runs*
    (note emphasis).

    After 2-3 weeks you'll be able to increase your pace almost up to your
    prior level without much effort. Then mix in faster/slower days as you're
    doing now. You are in pretty decent shape now, so I don't think the wheels
    are going to fall off as long as you slow down for the first couple or three
    weeks.

    I would go with a 5 day training plan, keeping one off day after the long
    run, of course. If you insert an extra day, make it extra slow (eg, 9:00
    mile).

    That program is so strangely complicated, what with varying distances on the
    long run and seemingly random daily mileages. Maybe that is best for
    beginning runners.

    The notion of trying to race a marathon on an average weekly mileage in the
    30's is insane to me :-). Adding mileage base turns a marathon from a
    death march with massive slowing at the end to a more proper death march
    with very little slowing :-) It's always gonna hurt, but with better prep,
    you're hitting the snack table while others are struggling back at mile
    20....

    Look at the training patterns of experienced racers, and you won't find that
    many fluctuations (except for Steve Common and Charlie (who just got out of
    rehab** :-). What you find first and foremost is a determination to make a
    minimum weekly mileage.

    Karen tries to keep it in the 80's, I try to keep it a bit above 70, I2Run
    is shooting for 50, etc. We tend to ramp up the mileage preparing for a
    race and keep it there until taper time.

    What varies in this realm of obsessive minimum mileage is the gradual
    introduction of 2 or 3 stronger runs, be they distance, tempo, or repeat
    work, coupled in with occasional back-off weeks or off days if you feel
    overtrained.

    The last couple of weeks of taper in your schedule looks good -- if you bump
    mileage, you can increase week - 2, but week - 1 looks fine..

    Anyway, my money is on the proposition that you can probably run your goal
    7:45 marathon now -- your talent level can take you several notches faster
    if you get a consistent base mileage going with a long run (not necessarily
    20) every week.

    I think you could get close to 3 (quite good for a 50 y.o.), with a solid
    base of 60-70 mpw. Just remember Rome wasn't built in a day...

    -- Dan

    ** I wish I was in rehab last night. Ran with a rare hangover this morning.
    Yuck.

  3. D Stumpus said:

    Jeez, I feel ambivalent about luring you away from this program into
    stronger stuff, but I'll follow the "Do ask, Do Tell" rule...

    I asked...

    Quoted message said:


    OK, to get to 50ish miles, I would add in a 7 miler (reall easy) in one of
    your off days, and add a few more here and there on other days. Keep an off
    day after the longest run of the week, though.

    I'm reworking my schedule now. 42 this week coming and 50 the next.
    Probably all slow ~8:45 - 9:00

    Quoted message said:


    You can increase 20% per week *if you slow down 30-45 sec/mile on all runs*
    (note emphasis).

    So noted

    Quoted message said:


    After 2-3 weeks you'll be able to increase your pace almost up to your
    prior level without much effort. Then mix in faster/slower days as you're
    doing now. You are in pretty decent shape now, so I don't think the wheels
    are going to fall off as long as you slow down for the first couple or three
    weeks.

    I would go with a 5 day training plan, keeping one off day after the long
    run, of course. If you insert an extra day, make it extra slow (eg, 9:00
    mile).

    That program is so strangely complicated, what with varying distances on the
    long run and seemingly random daily mileages. Maybe that is best for
    beginning runners.

    Yes, it was based off my original 25 mpw. I am sure it is/was meant
    for the masses.

    Quoted message said:


    The notion of trying to race a marathon on an average weekly mileage in the
    30's is insane to me :-). Adding mileage base turns a marathon from a
    death march with massive slowing at the end to a more proper death march
    with very little slowing :-) It's always gonna hurt, but with better prep,
    you're hitting the snack table while others are struggling back at mile
    20....

    Look at the training patterns of experienced racers, and you won't find that
    many fluctuations (except for Steve Common and Charlie (who just got out of
    rehab** :-). What you find first and foremost is a determination to make a
    minimum weekly mileage.

    Karen tries to keep it in the 80's, I try to keep it a bit above 70, I2Run
    is shooting for 50, etc. We tend to ramp up the mileage preparing for a
    race and keep it there until taper time.

    I'll give it a try. Work and golf will get in the way!

    Quoted message said:


    What varies in this realm of obsessive minimum mileage is the gradual
    introduction of 2 or 3 stronger runs, be they distance, tempo, or repeat
    work, coupled in with occasional back-off weeks or off days if you feel
    overtrained.

    The last couple of weeks of taper in your schedule looks good -- if you bump
    mileage, you can increase week - 2, but week - 1 looks fine..

    Anyway, my money is on the proposition that you can probably run your goal
    7:45 marathon now -- your talent level can take you several notches faster
    if you get a consistent base mileage going with a long run (not necessarily
    20) every week.

    Thanks for the vote of confidence!

    Quoted message said:


    I think you could get close to 3 (quite good for a 50 y.o.), with a solid
    base of 60-70 mpw. Just remember Rome wasn't built in a day...

    I just signed up for the Disney Marathon on 1/13/08. Maybe, just
    maybe...

    Quoted message said:


    -- Dan

    ** I wish I was in rehab last night. Ran with a rare hangover this morning.
    Yuck.

    Sometimes running is the best thing for a hangover. Sweat those bad
    toxins out!

    Thanks Dan! Your time and thoughts are very much appreciated.

    Regards,
    Ken

  4. Dan said:

    That program is so strangely complicated, what with varying distances
    on the long run and seemingly random daily mileages.

    Further to your point, it seems like so many of these programs not
    only do that, but also ramp up in a steady crescendo of both volume
    *and* workout intensity until a couple or three weeks before the race.

    One thing I read from Doug and others as I was first perusing this
    group was "increasing mileage and intensity at the same time is asking
    for trouble". I've found that to be largely true. Better to build up
    to peak mileage first and get fairly accustomed to that *before*
    adding tough workouts. I see you pretty much said this a little
    further below, Dan, so I'm just seconding that here.

    Quoted message said:

    Charlie (who just got out of rehab** :-)

    "How dry I am..."

    Quoted message said:

    Ran with a rare hangover this morning.

    Oof, don't those ever suck, especially when you're used to being
    healthy and feeling good and not having hangovers.

    OTOH I've found a nice run really can clear out a mild hangover in
    short order. Was yours less mild?

  5. Charlie Pendejo said:
    Dan said:

    That program is so strangely complicated, what with varying distances
    on the long run and seemingly random daily mileages.

    Further to your point, it seems like so many of these programs not
    only do that, but also ramp up in a steady crescendo of both volume
    *and* workout intensity until a couple or three weeks before the race.


    That's part of why I don't use schedules. Most beginners' schedules seem
    to set you up for problems (and that's not taking snow into account).
    For, say, a 12 wk program, they might get within 4 wks of the race, then
    realize the long run needs to be ramped up a lot more so just pile it on
    - or leave you a few miles short. Very few use the 10% rule or the 5%
    corollary - more like 20% sometimes.

    That Smart Coach pgm is particularly amusing as it specifies a precise
    pace to run each the runs - varies by workout but no range of paces,
    even for easy runs. And it might be something like 15:14 min/mi.
    Personally, I think RW is in a conspiracy with Garmin.😉

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people"
    -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

  6. Dot said:

    That's part of why I don't use schedules.

    That, and c'mon admit it Dot, you're too much the rebel to be told
    what to do every day. :-)

    Me too.

    Quoted message said:

    Personally, I think RW is in a conspiracy with Garmin.😉

    Axis of evil.

  7. "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That program is so strangely complicated, what with varying distances
    on the long run and seemingly random daily mileages.

    Further to your point, it seems like so many of these programs not
    only do that, but also ramp up in a steady crescendo of both volume
    *and* workout intensity until a couple or three weeks before the race.

    One thing I read from Doug and others as I was first perusing this
    group was "increasing mileage and intensity at the same time is asking
    for trouble". I've found that to be largely true.

    Thanks for noting that -- the thought flickered through my mind for a second
    but didn't make it into the final draft :-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Charlie (who just got out of rehab** :-)

    Quoted message said:

    "How dry I am..."

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ran with a rare hangover this morning.

    Quoted message said:

    OTOH I've found a nice run really can clear out a mild hangover in
    short order. Was yours less mild?

    Not bad, Felt much better after 30 minutes (when it was time to jog
    downhill). Almost normal by noon...

  8. Charlie Pendejo said:
    Dot said:

    That's part of why I don't use schedules.

    That, and c'mon admit it Dot, you're too much the rebel to be told
    what to do every day. :-)

    'Tis true.😉 Running is about freedom.

    Quoted message said:


    Me too.

    Quoted message said:

    Personally, I think RW is in a conspiracy with Garmin.😉

    Axis of evil.


    yes. I see Garmin is coming out with a new ForeRunner - hrm only, no
    GPS, but can get footpod with it.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people"
    -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope


  9. Quoted message said:

    I think you could get close to 3 (quite good for a 50 y.o.), with a solid

    Quoted message said:

    base of 60-70 mpw. Just remember Rome wasn't built in a day...

    let me add: or a year...

    Quoted message said:

    I just signed up for the Disney Marathon on 1/13/08. Maybe, just
    maybe...

    Keep us posted...you might want to pile on to the weekly training thread.
    It's an opportunity to see How They Train and to kibbitz and gossip...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks Dan! Your time and thoughts are very much appreciated.

    YW, Ken. Keep us posted so we can follow your progress...also we can see
    how training affects your golf score...

  10. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

    That's part of why I don't use schedules. Most beginners' schedules
    seem to set you up for problems (and that's not taking snow into
    account). For, say, a 12 wk program, they might get within 4 wks of
    the race, then realize the long run needs to be ramped up a lot more
    so just pile it on - or leave you a few miles short.

    That's what I like about the program I'm following. It ramps up the
    long run one mile every two weeks at first, and then one mile per week
    for the last few weeks before the taper week.

    <http://www.halhigdon.com/halfmarathon/novice.htm>

    --
    Crossing the starting line is 90%.
    Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

  11. D Stumpus said:


    <Ken Hardy> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I just finished the 35M week.

    I looked it over to see where I could add some miles as you suggested,
    but I can't get to 50 without adding more than 10% per week. Run on
    some off days?


    Quoted message said:

    That program is so strangely complicated, what with varying distances on the
    long run and seemingly random daily mileages. Maybe that is best for
    beginning runners.

    The plan has a very simple logic: If a run is increased substantially,
    then reduce the subsequent runs slightly to allow the body to recover from
    the shock. So whenever you increase the long run, next week's runs are a
    little shorter. Similarly, some weeks increase the mileage of
    all the short runs - in those weeks, the long run becomes a recovery run.
    They seem to be a type of recovery week where at the same time you get
    used to running at least X miles every day. Or something.

    I don't know if it's a good idea to prescribe such a program though.

    --
    Christos Dimitrakakis
    Homepage: http://www.idiap.ch/~dimitrak/main.html
    Music: http://olethros.dmusic.com

  12. D Stumpus said:


    Quoted message said:

    I think you could get close to 3 (quite good for a 50 y.o.), with a solid

    Quoted message said:

    base of 60-70 mpw. Just remember Rome wasn't built in a day...

    let me add: or a year...

    Quoted message said:

    I just signed up for the Disney Marathon on 1/13/08. Maybe, just
    maybe...

    Keep us posted...you might want to pile on to the weekly training thread.
    It's an opportunity to see How They Train and to kibbitz and gossip...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks Dan! Your time and thoughts are very much appreciated.

    YW, Ken. Keep us posted so we can follow your progress...also we can see
    how training affects your golf score...

    Hi All,

    It's been a while but I have an update for you.

    I was all set to do the wine glass marathon on 9/30. I was doing
    nicely in training and I started my taper. Low and behold, I got the
    worst cold I can remember. So, the wineglass folks were nice enough to
    give me a credit for next year. I put plan B into effect; I registered
    for the Green Mountain Marathon in VT; which I ran on Saturday, 10/20.

    If you remember, this was my first marathon and I was shooting for a
    3:23, averaging 7:45's. I ran 3:32, averaging 8:06. My 305 had me at a
    7:50 total pace with 6 to go. Bad things hit and I slowed
    considerably. 9:05 over the last 4. All in all, I'm pretty happy with
    this as I qualified for Boston. The GMM was an out and back on Grand
    Isle in the middle of Lake Champlain. The back portion was into a 10
    m/hr headwind, with some good uphill. This combination kicked my ass.

    New plan, I've got 26 weeks to Boston, so I'm putting together a new
    training schedule based on JD's running formula book. This plan makes
    a lot more sense to me than what I was doing. Which was just running,
    mostly too fast without any threshold or interval runs.

    Anyway, I just wanted to share my results to all that helped and to
    express my gratitude.

    Thanks all,
    Ken

  13. "Ken Hardy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    D Stumpus said:


    Quoted message said:

    I think you could get close to 3 (quite good for a 50 y.o.), with a solid
    >base of 60-70 mpw. Just remember Rome wasn't built in a day...

    let me add: or a year...

    Quoted message said:

    I just signed up for the Disney Marathon on 1/13/08. Maybe, just
    maybe...

    Keep us posted...you might want to pile on to the weekly training thread.
    It's an opportunity to see How They Train and to kibbitz and gossip...

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks Dan! Your time and thoughts are very much appreciated.

    YW, Ken. Keep us posted so we can follow your progress...also we can see
    how training affects your golf score...

    Hi All,

    It's been a while but I have an update for you.

    I was all set to do the wine glass marathon on 9/30. I was doing
    nicely in training and I started my taper. Low and behold, I got the
    worst cold I can remember. So, the wineglass folks were nice enough to
    give me a credit for next year. I put plan B into effect; I registered
    for the Green Mountain Marathon in VT; which I ran on Saturday, 10/20.

    If you remember, this was my first marathon and I was shooting for a
    3:23, averaging 7:45's. I ran 3:32, averaging 8:06. My 305 had me at a
    7:50 total pace with 6 to go. Bad things hit and I slowed
    considerably. 9:05 over the last 4. All in all, I'm pretty happy with
    this as I qualified for Boston. The GMM was an out and back on Grand
    Isle in the middle of Lake Champlain. The back portion was into a 10
    m/hr headwind, with some good uphill. This combination kicked my ass.

    New plan, I've got 26 weeks to Boston, so I'm putting together a new
    training schedule based on JD's running formula book. This plan makes
    a lot more sense to me than what I was doing. Which was just running,
    mostly too fast without any threshold or interval runs.

    Anyway, I just wanted to share my results to all that helped and to
    express my gratitude.

    Thanks all,
    Ken

    Congrats on your BQ! If you feel like it, share your training in the
    "training week" threads.

    -Tony

  14. Ken Hardy said:

    If you remember, this was my first marathon and I was shooting for a
    3:23, averaging 7:45's. I ran 3:32, averaging 8:06.

    Nice goin', Ken!

    Only nine minutes off target on one's first marathon puts you way
    ahead of many of us. My first, I was shooting for comparable and
    straggled in a little over four hours.

    Congrats on the BQ. By all means, try Daniels if that appeals. And
    try something considerably different for the next one. People respond
    somewhat differently to stuff, and you don't know for sure until you
    try it. I've done a season of Daniels 10k training and then did much
    better the next season on higher mileage and longer slower (largely MP-
    ish) workouts.

  15. Charlie Pendejo said:
    Ken Hardy said:

    If you remember, this was my first marathon and I was shooting for a
    3:23, averaging 7:45's. I ran 3:32, averaging 8:06.

    Nice goin', Ken!

    Only nine minutes off target on one's first marathon puts you way
    ahead of many of us. My first, I was shooting for comparable and
    straggled in a little over four hours.

    Congrats on the BQ. By all means, try Daniels if that appeals. And
    try something considerably different for the next one. People respond
    somewhat differently to stuff, and you don't know for sure until you
    try it. I've done a season of Daniels 10k training and then did much
    better the next season on higher mileage and longer slower (largely MP-
    ish) workouts.

    Thx Charlie, lots can happen out there. You know the saying, if it
    can, it will.

    Doing is knowing. I don't know it all by any means, but I have a
    glimse of reality, as well as a large dose. Those last 6 miles are
    tough, and in a way, that what I need to train for. My goals are to
    get my endurance up, #1, and #2, increase my speed. #1 maybe easier to
    do in the short term.

    In any case, I'm having fun. Training is fun. I like having goals.
    Running is like golf, you never run perfect. You can run perfect for
    you, but not perfect. I'll get better. Just doing it makes us better.

    Boston will be an experience! The GMM was 245 people. Boston is
    25,000! Just getting started will be a challange.

    Anyone know of a good primer on Boston?

    K

  16. "Ken Hardy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Anyone know of a good primer on Boston?

    I don't know about a primer but let me impart two major facts from my 10
    trips to the dance.

    One: Yes the Newton hills(heartbreak +) at 18-21 are challenging not
    just because they are kind of steep but mostly because it's 18 miles
    into the race. So to prepare Beantown, make sure you add some solid
    uphills to your training. Hopefully this is not new news as strength
    from hills is your foundation.

    Two and more important than one: The fist 13-15 miles of the race are a
    gradual downhill and will toast your quads if you don't also get some
    long sustained downhill runs in training. I'm talking about some
    stretches that are a few miles down, not just short repeats.

    -Doug

  17. On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:27:06 -0400, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Ken Hardy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Anyone know of a good primer on Boston?

    I don't know about a primer but let me impart two major facts from my 10
    trips to the dance.

    One: Yes the Newton hills(heartbreak +) at 18-21 are challenging not
    just because they are kind of steep but mostly because it's 18 miles
    into the race. So to prepare Beantown, make sure you add some solid
    uphills to your training. Hopefully this is not new news as strength
    from hills is your foundation.

    Two and more important than one: The fist 13-15 miles of the race are a
    gradual downhill and will toast your quads if you don't also get some
    long sustained downhill runs in training. I'm talking about some
    stretches that are a few miles down, not just short repeats.

    -Doug


    Doug,
    Will do. I've been working hills alot as my home turf wouldn't have it
    anyother way. I guess I'll need to find some long downs now too!
    Good input.
    K

  18. Ken Hardy said:
    Quoted message said:

    Two and more important than one: The fist 13-15 miles of the race are a
    gradual downhill and will toast your quads if you don't also get some
    long sustained downhill runs in training. I'm talking about some
    stretches that are a few miles down, not just short repeats.

    -Doug


    Doug,
    Will do. I've been working hills alot as my home turf wouldn't have it
    anyother way. I guess I'll need to find some long downs now too!
    Good input.
    K

    Meat me before a race, and I'll "input" into you.

    df


  19. Quoted message said:

    If you remember, this was my first marathon and I was shooting for a
    3:23, averaging 7:45's. I ran 3:32, averaging 8:06. My 305 had me at a
    7:50 total pace with 6 to go. Bad things hit and I slowed
    considerably. 9:05 over the last 4.

    Sounds like my first too. The old "20 mile surprise" otherwise called
    the wall.
    Soemtimes its sudden, other times its gradual. Subsequent marathons
    wll
    get better.

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