Training Advice please.

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just finished my first 5K race (yes. it is associated
with the 30K that our contributor Dave had his big problem
in. hope he gets healthy.). i am ready for my next. I
picked a 10K on May 2. It is straight, mostly flat (altho
they claim it to be "downhill"😉 and will give me 4 weeks,
not counting this week to train. Incidently, this is the
Sporting Life 10K.

since my last week will be taper, I have 3 full weeks to
try to improve. looking at last years results, it looks to
me like there were 1700 people who finished between 55 and
1:05. So my goal is 54 minutes. I've done this in training
once so I'm pretty confident already.

To pre-empt a certain one, ignore all comments about
this being too slow and needing to lose weight before
you run again.

Quoted message said:

Now, my thought for the next 3 weeks is to do 2 hill
interval sessions and a long run each week. I'm not really
trying to go faster. Just to make myself stronger so I can
run with less effort. I'm planning to do 10 degree
treadmill intervals the first week. Then 8 the next. then
6. On taper week, I'll just do flat. If the weather is
good, one of my sessions per week will be outside.

Have you been doing hill training prior to this? Starting at
a high intensity (10% grade?) rather than building up sounds
like a recipe for disaster. So does having two hill training
sessions in the same week. Then again, I have legs of glass,
so take my comments with a grain of salt. Seriously, I don't
know why you want to do hill training with so little time
and for a mostly flat course. I would do speed training
(intervals) on one of the workouts instead.

--
eNo "Why am I here?" thehick

"eNo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2xrac.22401

Quoted message said:

Seriously, I don't know why you want to do hill training
with so little

time

Quoted message said:

and for a mostly flat course. I would do speed training
(intervals) on one of the workouts instead.

Absolutely. Hill training alone for a flat race is silly.

Do some mild -- not all out -- speedwork, like 6 x 440 or 3
x 880 once or twice a week. Jog a lap slowly between. 20
minute jog warmup before & cooldown after. Take it easy the
first couple of times, things can break...

Amazing fact: speedwork makes you a lot stronger on hills,
but hill work doesn't make you much faster on flats.

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"eNo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2xrac.22401

Quoted message said:

Seriously, I don't know why you want to do hill training
with so little

time

Quoted message said:

and for a mostly flat course. I would do speed training
(intervals) on

one

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the workouts instead.

Absolutely. Hill training alone for a flat race is silly.

Do some mild -- not all out -- speedwork, like 6 x 440 or
3 x 880 once or twice a week. Jog a lap slowly between. 20
minute jog warmup before & cooldown after. Take it easy
the first couple of times, things can break...

Amazing fact: speedwork makes you a lot stronger on hills,
but hill work doesn't make you much faster on flats.

Why do people have such an obsession with such short
intervals when improving lactate threshold (which neither of
the above workouts would do) is going to give more bang for
the time? For instance 2x2 miles at 5K pace each or 3x2miles
at 10K pace. Then of course my favorite workout is 2x20min
(5 min rec jog) at about 10k pace. A great LT workout. Even
doing one of these for a few weeks will be a good dose of
intensity.

Hill work can improve one's flat speed. Lydiard often had
runners do a good time coming off hill training before
beginning what some might call speed specific work.

My experience has been different. Hill work made me faster.

--
Colm

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ne-
ws:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amazing fact: speedwork makes you a lot stronger on hills,
but hill work doesn't make you much faster on flats.

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hill work can improve one's flat speed. Lydiard often had
runners do a

good

Quoted message said:

time coming off hill training before beginning what some
might call speed specific work.

Perhaps, but as a targeted workout for a flat course race
and with limited time for training (3-4 weeks), which is to
yield a better bang for the buck, hill or speed work?

--
eNo "Why am I here?"

I said:

Quoted message said:

Do some mild -- not all out -- speedwork, like 6 x 440
or 3 x 880 once

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

twice a week.

To which "Sam" <[email hidden]> replied:

Quoted message said:

Why do people have such an obsession with such short
intervals when improving lactate threshold (which neither
of the above workouts would do) is going to give more bang
for the time?

Sure, I've read research about how longer intervals are more
effective for distance racing, but for beginners, I think
it's best to start out with shorter, easier stuff: like
doing 440's at a moderate (eg, 5k) pace. Then you can get as
technical as you want, and move up to the longer stuff.

I mix up distances from 1+ minutes to 20 minutes when I do
repeats. I think they all do something.

True story when I was starting out: my first interval work
consisted of 20 x 220 with some friends for 4 Saturday
mornings. Sounds nuts, right? But I went from 2:52 to 2:44
for the marathon in 7 weeks. My point here is not that 220's
are the way to go, but that even short stuff can help. And
because they were over so quickly, I enjoyed them, which is
half the battle.

Quoted message said:

For instance 2x2 miles at 5K pace ... or 3x2 miles at 10k
pace...

My take is that 2 x 2 miles at 5k is a bit too hard a
workout for the typical racer (e.g., see Gardiner-Purdy
tables), but there are a million ways to get into shape. I
try not to leave everything on the track. You don't dig
yourself into a hole...

Why not just run a 5k or 10k race? Much more fun than
grinding through a long hard workout. This was an important
part my training--untapered shorter races every week or two.
The world's fastest 72 year old (2:52 at age 69) does
nothing but easy runs during the week and a race every
weekend or so as his only speed.

Quoted message said:

Then of course my favorite workout is 2x20min (5 min rec
jog) at about 10k pace. A great LT workout. Even doing
one of these for a few weeks will be a good dose of
intensity.

It's all good. I do stuff like this in the mountains,
although it's usually more like charge up to the top of
this ridge, then take it easy, and charge up or down
something else...

Quoted message said:

Hill work can improve one's flat speed. Lydiard often had
runners do a

good

Quoted message said:

time coming off hill training before beginning what some
might call speed specific work.

If you do them the actual Lydiard way, hill workouts do
improve speed. Here's roughly what he prescribed: Charge up
a hill, jog, charge down, do 3 or 4 x 220 at the bottom.
Repeat. This is really a hill-speed workout, and I do
something like this when preparing for mountain ultras.

But most people think of hill repeats as, charge up a hill,
jog down, charge up another hill, etc. This is not nearly as
effective for a flat race as interval training.

Fun stuff, huh?

Regards,

Dan

frank-in-toronto said:

I'm not really trying to go faster. Just to make myself
stronger so I can run with less effort. I'm planning to do
10 degree treadmill intervals the first week. Then 8 the
next. then 6.

If you've done prior hillwork, this is probably fine. If
not, you *might* (or might not depending on background) want
to start gentler - esp. if you really meant 10 degree, which
is close to 20%) I might be tempted to progress the other
directtion - from 6 to 10 - if you haven't done these
before. OTOH, the way you have it set up you will go from
increasing strength to increasing speed, which also makes a
lot of sense. The last one would be 2 wks before your race
still so should have adequate recovery time. Were you
planning on doing these aerobically (breathing and hr might
be increased, but you can still talk and aren't panting for
breath) or hard (about to pass out at end of each interval)?

Unless you're doing "ups" one day and "downs" the other or
have been doing this all along, you might want to reconsider
doing 2 hill interval workouts in each week. If you're only
doing 3 runs, you might be safer with 1 long, 1 easy, 1
hill. Just a thought, but you know your training background
and recovery time better than we do.

Quoted message said:

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hill work can improve one's flat speed. Lydiard often had
runners do a

good

Quoted message said:

time coming off hill training before beginning what some
might call speed specific work.

eNo said:

Perhaps, but as a targeted workout for a flat course race
and with limited time for training (3-4 weeks), which is
to yield a better bang for the buck, hill or speed work?

Thought question:

Workout: Run the uphills (say somewhere near 10% like he's
planning - enough to make you stronger) *and* run downhills
(might choose something gentler, like 5% - to increase
turnover - assuming he could do this on dreadmill or could
do it outside) - perhaps on separate workouts.

How would the benefits of that compare with, say, flat
speedwork, for a flat race for
(a) achieving the OP's goal of making himself stronger with
less effort and
(b) making him faster (a stated non-goal in this case, but
an academic question)?

Does it depend on whether it's a vVO2max workout (work at
vVO2max - determined by 6min test; 1:1 work:recovery ratio)
or lactate stacker (work almost all out; 1:2 work:recovery
ratio) or some other? I'll assume the duration of the work
will vary according to the person's experience.

Does it depend on the type of training the runner has done
in the past and/or the way he responds to training?

I know where I put my money for (a) and probably for (b)
also (but I seldom run completely flat so have no experience
there). Especially if doing them on treadmill. Hill work
will force you to work muscles a lot more, even when on
treadmill.

Just curious about others' perspective.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

frank-in-toronto <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I just finished my first 5K race (yes. it is associated
with the 30K that our contributor Dave had his big problem
in. hope he gets

Congrats on finishing your first 5K! Did it go better than
you thought? My first 5K is upcoming (Saturday!)

Quoted message said:

healthy.). i am ready for my next. I picked a 10K on May
2. It is straight, mostly flat (altho they claim it to be
"downhill"😉 and will give me 4 weeks, not counting this
week to train. Incidently, this is the Sporting Life 10K.

I have heard this race is one where people set personal
bests since the race is downhill. There is quite a bit of
change in elevation as you go down Yonge Street (if you
think its flat, try running it the other direction!) But its
also harder on your knees going downhill despite the fact
you'll probably finish faster than in training.

Quoted message said:

Now, my thought for the next 3 weeks is to do 2 hill
interval sessions and a long run each week. I'm not really
trying to go faster. Just to make myself stronger so I can
run with less effort. I'm planning to do 10 degree
treadmill intervals the first week. Then 8 the next. then
6. On taper week, I'll just do flat. If the weather is
good, one of my sessions per week will be outside.

Just a thought, but what not run every session outside?
More of a simulation of race conditions. Just pick a road
or path with an uphill grade for your hill interval
sessions. Its certainly warm enough now outside in Toronto.
(hey I started learning to run in January and ran three
times a week whether it was -15C and snowing or whatever 😉
) If its raining hard you can always move your workouts a
bit or if you have some flexibility in your schedule. If
its drizzling you won't melt 🙂 Good practice too in case
its raining on race day.

Quoted message said:

Does this sound like something useful to do? or stupid?
Any other routines that would fit into 4 weeks?
thanks...thehick

How long are your training runs now? Do you need to increase
mileage a lot to get to 10k or are you already doing longer
runs? Increasing mileage AND trying the speed work might be
a strain on the system but if you are already doing the
distance go for the speed!

Good luck! Tanya

On 31 Mar 2004 11:07:56 -0800, [email hidden] (Tanya)
wrote:

<snip plenty of sound questions and ideas> thanks to all
for the thoughts. i'm ok with 10K right now. i could easily
run it tomorrow and break 1 hour. so that's not my concern.
and i'm really not trying to go real fast as yet. i'll be
happy with doing the race in 54 minutes or so with no
injury. real happy.

i did hill intervals on the treadmill in jan, feb and mar
using the same declining % incline as I propose to start
next week. as the incline got less, i increased the duration
and decreased the recovery time. one interval and recovery
were 5 minutes.

i was doing hill, lsd and speed but i found that my knees
were starting to hurt. i believe it was the speed runs that
were the cause. so i dropped them.

also, i'm not training specifically for this race. it just
happens to look like fun and i want to do it. and since
there are 4 weeks in between, it's like a small cycle.

so, i will do hills. i'll try twice a week. if that proves
to be too much by the second week, i can drop one and
convert that workout into a tempo run.

the mention that downhill is a killer for the legs (quads)
has me thinking. when I run outdoors, i'll do some downhill
repeats. that's a good idea.

thanks...thehick

On 31 Mar 2004 11:07:56 -0800, [email hidden] (Tanya)

Quoted message said:

frank-in-toronto <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I just finished my first 5K race (yes. it is associated
with the 30K that our contributor Dave had his big
problem in. hope he gets

Congrats on finishing your first 5K! Did it go better than
you thought? My first 5K is upcoming (Saturday!)

it went exactly as I had planned. almost by accident
because I had no idea of my pace since my watch messed up.
i do suggest you run a pace you are sure is OK for you.
figure out the 1K or half-way points and make sure you are
on-target.

so, my advice: be sure to finish. even if you need to
slow down.

there is no pride in DNF, whereas everyone who is a non-
runner will ooh and ahhh when they hear you RAN A RACE!!!
They won't know if the time is good or bad anyway. And
runners will now welcome you into the close-knit club once
you have a chip-time.

and once you've done one, you can plan the next. with
confidence. good luck...thehick

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

frank-in-toronto said:

I'm not really trying to go faster. Just to make myself
stronger so I can run with less effort. I'm planning to
do 10 degree treadmill intervals the first week. Then 8
the next. then 6.

If you've done prior hillwork, this is probably fine.

i have.

Quoted message said:

Were you planning on doing these aerobically

yes. breathing hard but not nuts.

Quoted message said:

Unless you're doing "ups" one day and "downs" the other or
have been doing this all along, you might want to
reconsider doing 2 hill interval workouts in each week. If
you're only doing 3 runs, you might be safer with 1 long, 1
easy, 1 hill.

i will be doing 2 other easy runs. i train mon to fri. but i
will add some downhills on what would have been just another
outdoor run. ...

Quoted message said:

Does it depend on whether it's a vVO2max workout (work at
vVO2max - determined by 6min test; 1:1 work:recovery ratio)
or lactate stacker (work almost all out; 1:2 work:recovery
ratio) or some other?

thanks, but. this is too complex for me at my current level
of running knowledge. it will come. just not right now.
...thehick

First of all, STAY COMPLETELY OFF THE TREADMILL. It is
absolutely useless. The only thing I would even dare use it
for is recovery. Do absolutely not use it for interval
sessions. It has no correspondence to real running. You have
a motor powering your running and that does you no good.
There was another guy here recently who did nothing but
workout on his treadmill and was disgusted that he couldn't
even run 17 minutes for 2 miles. That's representative of
the kind of benefit you get from a treadmill.

Secondly, you talk about tapering. Tapering from what?
People taper who have been doing 100 miles per week or
more. What kind of mileage are you going to be tapering
from 30 miles per week, 40 miles per week. Tapering from
that will taper yourself right out of competition and
slow you down from total lack of conditioning.

Thirdly, all the advice you have received here from the
other posts is complete nonsense and just about
completely useless. If you don't understand running and
how it works to improve conditioning then there is no one
kind of workout that is going to help you.

You can do what you want to do or follow the advice of
some of these joggers who post here who run 5Ks in 23
minutes and think they are experts at workouts. They
shouldn't even be allowed to post here to begin with.

I strongly suggest that you find yourself an experienced
runner who wins races. Someone who knows what it takes to
get the most out of training and the best way to train
that produces results. Ask that person or pay them to
train you for several weeks before a race and tell him
not to hold back on anything but to put you through the
maximum best training he knows of. You will then see the
difference between the bozos that post here and real
running, training and results.

frank-in-toronto <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I just finished my first 5K race (yes. it is associated
with the 30K that our contributor Dave had his big problem
in. hope he gets healthy.). i am ready for my next. I
picked a 10K on May 2. It is straight, mostly flat (altho
they claim it to be "downhill"😉 and will give me 4 weeks,
not counting this week to train. Incidently, this is the
Sporting Life 10K.

since my last week will be taper, I have 3 full weeks to
try to improve. looking at last years results, it looks to
me like there were 1700 people who finished between 55 and
1:05. So my goal is 54 minutes. I've done this in training
once so I'm pretty confident already.

Now, my thought for the next 3 weeks is to do 2 hill
interval sessions and a long run each week. I'm not really
trying to go faster. Just to make myself stronger so I can
run with less effort. I'm planning to do 10 degree
treadmill intervals the first week. Then 8 the next. then
6. On taper week, I'll just do flat. If the weather is
good, one of my sessions per week will be outside.

Does this sound like something useful to do? or stupid?
Any other routines that would fit into 4 weeks?
thanks...thehick

In article said:

to real running. You have a motor powering your running
and that does you no good.

Bwahahahahaha ... you're a dumbass.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

frank-in-toronto wrote:

<description of training snipped>

Sounds to me like you've got it under control!

Quoted message said:

...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does it depend on whether it's a vVO2max workout (work at
vVO2max - determined by 6min test; 1:1 work:recovery
ratio) or lactate stacker (work almost all out; 1:2
work:recovery ratio) or some other?

thanks, but. this is too complex for me at my current
level of running knowledge. it will come. just not right
now. ...thehick

Actually, I was trying to get a discussion started on
different types of training for certain objectives and maybe
get some comments from Sam. Oh, well. Yea, you can ignore
the question 🙂

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

macelroy said:

You can do what you want to do or follow the advice of
some of these joggers who post here who run 5Ks in 23
minutes and think they are experts at workouts. They
shouldn't even be allowed to post here to begin with.

You will have to bare with our ignorance. We are gegining to
understand that you are right and the world is wrong. Oh,
please forgive us? We will start a grass roots class action
suit with the USATF that anyone who dares to use the Tmill
must don a scarlet T on their singlets especially those that
qualify for the Olympics.

I don't think people really appreciate your rapier whit.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"macelroy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I strongly suggest that you find yourself an
experienced runner who wins races. Someone who knows
what it takes to get the most out of training and the
best way to train that produces results. Ask that
person or pay them to train you for several weeks
before a race and tell him not to hold back on anything
but to put you through the maximum best training he
knows of. You will then see the difference between the
bozos that post here and real running, training and
results.

Too bad Macelroy didn't volunteer to coach. Maybe he has too
many athletes already?

macelroy said:

You have a motor powering your running and that does you
no good.

Okay. So why is it that I can't just stay still and let the
motor do all the work for me? Because the motor is
_opposing_ me--not helping me. In other words, in order to
stay in place on the treadmill, I have to do work: the same
amount of work I have to do on the road to move at the same
rate the motor is moving in the--get this now, pay close attention--
*opposite* direction. Which all adds up to the same amount
of work. The only quantitative difference, as others have
pointed out, come in the footing: the treadmill provides an
even, consistent surface, where the road does not, so minor
muscle groups around the ankle might not work as hard; and
the jury is still out as to whether its softer surface is
better/easier on joints, etc. But the amount of *WORK* the
major muscle groups must do during running is, baring
insignificant differences, the *SAME*.

Deal with this: I have experienced a greater speed and
strength improvement--as 1/2 marathon and 10K PRs prove--
since I have been doing 3 of 4 weekly runs on the treadmill,
including speed and hills, than when I was doing all roads.
*AND* I have managed to avoid injury as well. Oh, and I
haven't lost any weight. Care to explain how this is so if
the treadmill motor is indeed "powering your running"?
Inquiring minds want to know.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

frank-in-toronto <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... --snip--

Quoted message said:

Now, my thought for the next 3 weeks is to do 2 hill
interval sessions and a long run each week. I'm not really
trying to go faster. Just to make myself stronger so I can
run with less effort. I'm planning to do 10 degree
treadmill intervals the first week. Then 8 the next. then
6. On taper week, I'll just do flat. If the weather is
good, one of my sessions per week will be outside.

Does this sound like something useful to do? or stupid?
Any other routines that would fit into 4 weeks?
thanks...thehick

As long as you're fit enought to not be injured with the
interval training you should be ok.

A little trick you might try - if you take caffine - stop
until race day then have some right before the race - will
feel like rocket fuel.

----

foxnews.com0,2933,115831,00.htmlOpen ↗

GOP Accuses Kerry of Illegal Campaign Tactics

WASHINGTON — Democrats say President Bush's campaign and the
GOP are "playing politics with the law," after Republicans
accused John Kerry's (search) campaign of illegally
coordinating political messages on the airwaves and get-out-the-
vote activities. The Bush-Cheney re-election campaign and
Republican National Committee (search) said they would file
a complaint with the Federal Election Commission (search)
accusing the Democratic Massachusetts senator and
independent pro-Kerry groups known as 527s of violating a
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corporate, union and unlimited individual donations — to
influence federal elections.

Meanwhile, the RNC also wants to step away from the issue of
so-called 527 groups that raise soft money for political
campaigns — and allow the RNC to take the question to court.

In article said:

macelroy said:

You have a motor powering your running and that does you
no good.

Okay. So why is it that I can't just stay still and let
the motor do all the work for me? Because the motor is
_opposing_ me--not helping me. In other words, in order to
stay in place on the treadmill, I have to do work: the
same amount of work I have to do on the road to move at
the same rate the motor is moving in the--get this now,
pay close attention--*opposite* direction. Which all adds
up to the same amount of work.

What it really boils down to is that on the treadmill,
you're running in a frame of reference that is moving
relative to observers, but that makes very little
difference. It confuses a lot of people, because they labor
under the intuitive delusion that the Earth's surface is
some authoritative bench mark for what is and isn't "really
moving" when in fact it practice it's just a convenient
frame of reference most of the time.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗