Training Advice please.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

What it really boils down to is that on the treadmill,
you're running in a frame of reference that is moving
relative to observers, but that makes very little
difference. It confuses a lot of people, because they
labor under the intuitive delusion that the Earth's
surface is some authoritative bench mark for what is and
isn't "really moving" when in fact it practice it's just a
convenient frame of reference most of the time.

Right. Another simple example that will help is those
conveyer belts that you can sometimes see and use at
airports. Since they move in your direction, if you get on
one and stay stationary, you still move forward. If you were
to start walking normally, you would out-pace someone who is
walking on the floor next to you at the same pace you're
walking. On the other hand, if you were to start walking in
the *opposite* direction of the conveyer belt, now you would
have to walk faster than someone walking on the floor along-
side you and headed in the same direction just to keep up
with them; or you must still walk to remain at the same spot
where your companion stands, were he to stop walking. The
second case is akin to what takes place on the treadmill.

Another example: would you say you are doing less work when
walking *up* a *down*-escalator than if you were walking up
regular stairs? If you answer yes, congratulations, you have
graduated from Macel-logic school.

All of which adds up to: if the device in question is
opposing your direction of motion, you have to do work to
over-come it, either to stay stationary or to move forward.
In the stationary case, the amount of work you must put out
equals that of the motor and is for all intents and purposes
equal to the amount of work along a non-moving surface while
moving forward at the same rate of the opposing motor.
Concretely:

1) If the motor is going at the equivalent of 6.0 miles/hr,
you must run at a rate of 6.0 miles/hr to stay put;
otherwise you fly out the back side.

2) If you want to run on the road at 6.0 miles/hour, you
must run at 6.0 miles/hr. Yeah, really.

In either case, you must run at 6.0 miles/hr, and the amount
of work you must do to accomplish this is the same.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

(phil) said:

frank-in-toronto <[email hidden]> wrote...> --snip--

<more snip>

Quoted message said:

A little trick you might try - if you take caffine - stop
until race day then have some right before the race - will
feel like rocket fuel.

i only drink one cup a day at the most anyway. and i intend
to run the 10K on an overnite empty stomach. i'm not up to
risking some gastro problem (like diarrhea) just yet.

it starts early enough to just give me time to sleep in to 7
o'clock, get up, dressed, drive there and get in the start
group. really, not much time to eat anyway. and this means i
can pig out after the race without worrying about consuming
too many calories for the day.

another one of my concerns is belly fat. i have a little (6
feet, 165 pounds) and don't want more. less is better.
...thehick

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open this
by accident.

For VO2max I like efforts that are 2:30 to 5 minutes in
duration with equal recovery (times) at a jog. I like to aim
for 12 to 18 minutes of this in a session. So a workout
might be 5x3min (3min recovery). The speed of the workout is
the speed that I can average for a 6min all out run (this is
based on some of the work of Veronique Billat). An all out
run lasting 6min will give you an approximation of the
minimal velocity needed to elicit VO2max.

For lactate threshold work, I aim for 20 to 60 min at a
pace that one could maintain for one hour, all out. For
reference however I use 10K time. So my favorite workout is
2x20min (5 min recovery) at 10K pace or a few seconds
slower per mile. You can also do 4x10min, 3x15min or
continuous 40-60 min effort.

Another VO2max workout that I have tried to do but find
really hard to do running (easier cycling) is 30sec on/30sec
off. When you are "on" it is all out; when you are "off" you
are doing nothing (except maybe walking. Oddly enough to
many people that becomes an aerobic workout after the first
couple of all out sprints. I do not recommend this workout
for any person I have ever worked with. I know a guy who can
do this workout for 20min.

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message news:hgPac.12444$He5.253788@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Quoted message said:

frank-in-toronto wrote:

<description of training snipped>

Sounds to me like you've got it under control!

Quoted message said:

...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does it depend on whether it's a vVO2max workout (work
at vVO2max - determined by 6min test; 1:1 work:recovery
ratio) or lactate stacker (work almost all out; 1:2
work:recovery ratio) or some other?

thanks, but. this is too complex for me at my current
level of running knowledge. it will come. just not right
now. ...thehick

Actually, I was trying to get a discussion started on
different types of training for certain objectives and
maybe get some comments from Sam. Oh, well. Yea, you can
ignore the question 🙂

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Sam said:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open
this by accident.

Not a problem. It just seems there's been so many posts (not
this one) implying that you need measured distances for
speed work or hard efforts, I was trying to generate a
little discussion on alternative methods, and you are one of
the few here that I've seen post more from the VO2max, LT
perspective as opposed to distances and paces. Thanks for
the reply and the suggestions.

Quoted message said:

For VO2max I like efforts that are 2:30 to 5 minutes in
duration with equal recovery (times) at a jog. I like to
aim for 12 to 18 minutes of this in a session. So a
workout might be 5x3min (3min recovery). The speed of
the workout is the speed that I can average for a 6min
all out run (this is based on some of the work of
Veronique Billat). An all out run lasting 6min will give
you an approximation of the minimal velocity needed to
elicit VO2max.

Can the feel for vVO2max be estimated by effort - what it
feels like to run all out for 6 min? Or does it have a pct
max hr or heart rate reserve that it usually corresponds to?
I've got some notes suggesting it's around 91% Karvonen
reserve or 94% max hr. (I feel reasonably comfortable with
my estimates of max hr and VT/LT based on experience - or at
least something close enough that works for beginners.)

While I do have some relatively easy sections of trails that
might be suitable for a 6-min test, most of my runs are
going to vary from dirt in summer to various levels of snow
in winter (running on snowshoes again today after a couple
weeks of just normal running in snow). My future races (or
my best imitation of racing) will probably include both
summer trail running, snowshoe running, and probably mt
biking (duathlon) - and they usually involve hills, so the
more I can accomodate that type training, the better off I
am, I think.

Treadmills to me are so different from my normal running,
that if I used that for calibration, I'd have a hard time
transferring that feel to actual running. Trying to find
some way of meaningful calibration has always been an issue
for me trying to do various tests. BTW, this 5x3
min (3min recovery) is the same that Owen Anderson suggests
for vVO2max workout (and I'm sure he got it some
place else).

Quoted message said:

For lactate threshold work, I aim for 20 to 60 min at a
pace that one could maintain for one hour, all out. For
reference however I use 10K time. So my favorite workout
is 2x20min (5 min recovery) at 10K pace or a few seconds
slower per mile. You can also do 4x10min, 3x15min or
continuous 40-60 min effort.

Quoted message said:

Another VO2max workout that I have tried to do but
find really hard to do running (easier cycling) is
30sec on/30sec off. When you are "on" it is all out;
when you are "off" you are doing nothing (except maybe
walking. Oddly enough to many people that becomes an
aerobic workout after the first couple of all out
sprints. I do not recommend this workout for any
person I have ever worked with. I know a guy who can
do this workout for 20min.

wow! When I first looked at that, I thought it looked like
OA's suggestion for a vVO2max to do if you can't handle the
5x3min - then I realized his is at vVO2max, and this is all
out and not having as much recovery time as lactate stacker
(1:2 work:recovery; all out during work). Then doing that
for 20 min.

Thanks again for your comments.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot said:

Sam said:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open
this by accident.

Not a problem. It just seems there's been so many posts
(not this one) implying that you need measured distances
for speed work or hard efforts, I was trying to generate a
little discussion on alternative methods, and you are one
of the few here that I've seen post more from the VO2max,
LT perspective as opposed to distances and paces. Thanks
for the reply and the suggestions.

I'm not being facetious and I like to poke fun at those
people that just can not live without measuring every bloody
run and some with decimal points, but... 😉

When I crank back up in May for my more serious training I
just love tempo runs on an unmeasured lightly undulating
road. I do 4-5 minutes at God forbid, some unknown threshold
pace, a minute rest and repeat for 3-6 times. Over some
number of weeks I increase the number or length of each
surge. I simply feel the changes but could never quantify it
for a log book.

I spent 8 or so years measuring everything and the sport got
more like work rather than a break from work. It's so much
more fun now. Different strokes......

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Thank you to all who replied to this thread. There's so much
good information here! Thanks!

In article <[email hidden]>, Dot

Quoted message said:

Not a problem. It just seems there's been so many posts
(not this one) implying that you need measured distances
for speed work or hard efforts, I was trying to generate a
little discussion on alternative methods

Measured distances are good because they keep the pressure
on. They are bad for the same reason. I don't think it's
good to always measure everything with a lot of precision.
Sometimes, training by time for speed workouts is good too.
Or training by distance, but throwing away the watch.

When you do hill training or similar, measured distances are
less important, though it's important to know the
approximate duration of each repeat.

FWIW, I've found that for training on unmeasured courses,
having a training group really helps a lot. The training
partners give you "pace markers" that would otherwise be
missing from these workouts. In my group training sessions,
we never train on measured courses, yet I often exceed the
pace of my track word despite terrain that is vastly more
difficult (hills)

Training in groups is a very effective technique, and it is
one that is really not given its due in most training books,
IMO. This seems to be one of the factors that gives the
Kenyans the edge, and to just ignore it or at least fail to
emphasize it as an important part of training strikes me as
a glaring omission.

Quoted message said:

and you are one of the few here that I've seen post more
from the VO2max, LT perspective as opposed to distances
and paces. Thanks for

I tend to *think* in terms of VO2Max and LT perspective, but
sometimes I like to avoid communicating in these terms,
because it often just confuses people.

Quoted message said:

Can the feel for vVO2max be estimated by effort - what it
feels like to run all out for 6 min?

According to Daniels, it's similar to the pace of an all out
15 minute effort.

If you can do 4x4 minute repeats with about equal time jog-
rests, the pace is about right. After doing a few of these
workouts, one develops a feel for the pace, and can run
pretty close to it "by feel" alone. This is why experienced
runners like Doug F and Dan S are able to do their workouts
by effort alone.

Quoted message said:

Or does it have a pct max hr or heart rate reserve that it
usually corresponds to?

Using heart rate becomes really problematic in this range
of intensity, because when you're training this hard, you
will be very close to your max. Since MHR can be
influenced by a number of variables, it's hard to tell the
difference betweeen 95%, 98%, and 100% MHR. MHR is not a
fixed constant.

However, the pace of an all out 15 minute effort will
put you very close to max heart rate after a single 4
minute repeat.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

I spent 8 or so years measuring everything and the sport
got more like work rather than a break from work. It's so
much more fun now. Different strokes......

That's called "experience". Please yell at me if I'm still
need to measure everything 8 years from now (not entirely
impossible given my personality).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

That's called "experience". Please yell at me if I'm still
need to measure everything 8 years from now (not entirely
impossible given my personality).

Eight years from now I'll have a hard time remembering my
own name. I hope you're still measuring but you may find the
numbers smaller and the psychological strain to slowing,
difficult. 😉

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

X-No-Archive:yes
[email hidden] (phil) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

frank-in-toronto <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
news:<[email hidden]>... --snip--

Quoted message said:

Now, my thought for the next 3 weeks is to do 2 hill
interval sessions and a long run each week. I'm not
really trying to go faster. Just to make myself stronger
so I can run with less effort. I'm planning to do 10
degree treadmill intervals the first week. Then 8 the
next. then 6. On taper week, I'll just do flat. If the
weather is good, one of my sessions per week will be
outside.

Does this sound like something useful to do? or stupid?
Any other routines that would fit into 4 weeks?
thanks...thehick

As long as you're fit enought to not be injured with the
interval training you should be ok.

A little trick you might try - if you take caffine - stop
until race day then have some right before the race - will
feel like rocket fuel.

I don't know about that. One of the cardinal sins of racing
is to try something different on race day. He should not be
doing this right before the race. Last thing he wants to
have is an upset tummy.

MWL
----------------
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112603.htm

How the president(*) supports our troops: This year's White
House budget for Veterans Affairs cut $3 billion from VA
hospitals—despite 9,000 casualties in Iraq and as aging
Vietnam veterans demand more care. VA spending today
averages $2,800 less per patient than nine years ago.

Quoted message said:

foxnews.com0,2933,115831,00.htmlOpen ↗

GOP Accuses Kerry of Illegal Campaign Tactics

WASHINGTON ? Democrats say President Bush's campaign and
the GOP are "playing politics with the law," after
Republicans accused John Kerry's (search) campaign of
illegally coordinating political messages on the airwaves
and get-out-the-vote activities. The Bush-Cheney re-
election campaign and Republican National Committee
(search) said they would file a complaint with the Federal
Election Commission (search) accusing the Democratic
Massachusetts senator and independent pro-Kerry groups
known as 527s of violating a campaign law that broadly
bans the use of "soft money" ? corporate, union and
unlimited individual donations ? to influence federal
elections.

Meanwhile, the RNC also wants to step away from the issue
of so-called 527 groups that raise soft money for
political campaigns ? and allow the RNC to take the
question to court.

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open
this by

accident.

Quoted message said:

Not a problem. It just seems there's been so many posts
(not this one) implying that you need measured distances
for speed work or hard efforts, I was trying to generate a
little discussion on alternative methods, and you are one
of the few here that I've seen post more from the VO2max,
LT perspective as opposed to distances and paces. Thanks
for the reply and the suggestions.

Quoted message said:

For VO2max I like efforts that are 2:30 to 5 minutes in
duration with

equal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recovery (times) at a jog. I like to aim for 12 to 18
minutes of this

in a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

session. So a workout might be 5x3min (3min recovery).
The speed of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

workout is the speed that I can average for a 6min all
out run (this is based on some of the work of Veronique
Billat). An all out run lasting

6min

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will give you an approximation of the minimal velocity
needed to elicit VO2max.

Can the feel for vVO2max be estimated by effort - what it
feels like to run all out for 6 min? Or does it have a pct
max hr or heart rate reserve that it usually corresponds
to? I've got some notes suggesting it's around 91%
Karvonen reserve or 94% max hr. (I feel reasonably
comfortable with my estimates of max hr and VT/LT based on
experience - or at least something close enough that works
for beginners.)

I think the 6min effort can be estimated based on
feel. It should be approaching maxHR pace, but I worry
less about HR.

Quoted message said:

While I do have some relatively easy sections of trails
that might be suitable for a 6-min test, most of my runs
are going to vary from dirt in summer to various levels of
snow in winter (running on snowshoes again today after a
couple weeks of just normal running in snow). My future
races (or my best imitation of racing) will probably
include both summer trail running, snowshoe running, and
probably mt biking (duathlon) - and they usually involve
hills, so the more I can accomodate that type training,
the better off I am, I think.

It does not really matter. You are really looking to
get to the intensity so if you are running up hills,
you can still get a VO2max workout.

Quoted message said:

Treadmills to me are so different from my normal running,
that if I used that for calibration, I'd have a hard time
transferring that feel to actual running. Trying to find
some way of meaningful calibration has always been an
issue for me trying to do various tests. BTW, this 5x3
min (3min recovery) is the same that Owen Anderson
suggests for vVO2max workout (and I'm sure he got
it some place else).

He based that on Billat's work.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For lactate threshold work, I aim for 20 to 60 min at a
pace that one

could

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

maintain for one hour, all out. For reference however I
use 10K time.

So

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my favorite workout is 2x20min (5 min recovery) at 10K
pace or a few

seconds

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

slower per mile. You can also do 4x10min, 3x15min or
continuous 40-60

min

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

effort.

Quoted message said:

Another VO2max workout that I have tried to do but find
really hard to

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

running (easier cycling) is 30sec on/30sec off. When you
are "on" it is

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out; when you are "off" you are doing nothing (except
maybe walking.

Oddly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

enough to many people that becomes an aerobic workout
after the first

couple

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of all out sprints. I do not recommend this workout for
any person I

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ever worked with. I know a guy who can do this workout
for 20min.

wow! When I first looked at that, I thought it looked like
OA's suggestion for a vVO2max to do if you can't handle
the 5x3min - then I realized his is at vVO2max, and this
is all out and not having as much recovery time as lactate
stacker (1:2 work:recovery; all out during work). Then
doing that for 20 min.

Thanks again for your comments.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dot said:

Sam said:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open
this by

accident.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not a problem. It just seems there's been so many posts
(not this one) implying that you need measured distances
for speed work or hard efforts, I was trying to generate
a little discussion on alternative methods, and you are
one of the few here that I've seen post more from the
VO2max, LT perspective as opposed to distances and
paces. Thanks for the reply and the suggestions.

I'm not being facetious and I like to poke fun at those
people that just can not live without measuring every
bloody run and some with decimal points, but... 😉

When I crank back up in May for my more serious training I
just love tempo runs on an unmeasured lightly undulating
road. I do 4-5 minutes at God forbid, some unknown
threshold pace, a minute rest and repeat for 3-6 times.
Over some number of weeks I increase the number or length
of each surge. I simply feel the changes but could never
quantify it for a log book.

I spent 8 or so years measuring everything and the sport
got more like work rather than a break from work. It's so
much more fun now. Different strokes......

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug, when I first starting coaching folks we had regularly
(every other Sunday) track sessions and I had come from a
bit of a track background so running on the track was
natural. When I moved to Colorado, people just do not like
to run on the track so I adjusted. I have a "course" over
which I run my 2x20s in order to track progress. I have only
a general idea of how long I run each time (I measure it on
a bike but with the course altered every year (due to
"renovations" on the path) I have to measure anew each year.
I also have an idea of where I should be every 5 minutes in
order to pace myself.

If I ever invest in that Garmin Forerunner 201, I will
probably be depressed at how little ground I am covering.

Anyway, the body works on time, not distance.

Doug Freese said:

Dot said:

Sam said:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open
this by accident.

Not a problem. It just seems there's been so many posts
(not this one) implying that you need measured distances
for speed work or hard efforts, I was trying to generate
a little discussion on alternative methods, and you are
one of the few here that I've seen post more from the
VO2max, LT perspective as opposed to distances and paces.
Thanks for the reply and the suggestions.

I'm not being facetious and I like to poke fun at those
people that just can not live without measuring every
bloody run and some with decimal points, but... 😉

I'm assuming you're poking fun at the folks that use pace,
not the ones that train by effort. 😉 Actually, my intent
was to get a training discussion away from the pace numbers
- which are pretty meaningless unless you're on relatively
flat terrain with good footing, reasonable temperatures,
etc. - and more toward feel with respect to certain zones,
which I think works more universally. Even *you* referred to
threshold below 😉 ("unknown" meaning you were going by feel
but had no idea of
min/mile)

Some of us just needed to get pointed to where these
different zones are to get started, and the hrm provided a
useful tool - at least for me to start. I think I've had the
basic zones figured out (or a reasonable approximation for a
recreational runner) for awhile: easy, steady (aerobic
speed, tempo, or whatever terminology), above LT (this has
only been in brief spurts so I haven't worried about how far
above, which is where VO2max lies). For my purposes, it's
more meaningful to use avg hr than categorize a workout.
I've also gotten the impression that it's easier to train
VT/LT and VO2max, so if I do anything "hard", it's usually
relative to VT/LT.

Quoted message said:

When I crank back up in May for my more serious training I
just love tempo runs on an unmeasured lightly undulating
road. I do 4-5 minutes at God forbid, some unknown
threshold pace, a minute rest and repeat for 3-6 times.
Over some number of weeks I increase the number or length
of each surge. I simply feel the changes but could never
quantify it for a log book.

Right. *Pace* is unknown, but your *effort* (threshold) is
known or approximated.

For curiosity, do you actually time your work/recovery
portions or just go by what feels right (either breathing or
muscles) for the first set or an artifact of topography or
...? Then increase over the weeks - based on what your body
feels like at the time or deliberately pick a longer
interval or more of them and force yourself to that level?
Just curious.

I'm terrible about using watches and hrm's for actual times
to switch things, but do better if I go by body feel (either
breathing or muscles being tired) (that is, let the body run
if it says it's fine, and slow it down if breathing says I'm
about to go over VT ) or landmarks (trail intersections, big
rocks, etc). I've found my body automatically increases the
duration of the work section the next time. I may keep track
of time on certain sections of trail that I know I'll be
going back over (either repeats or out/back), and use that
as an indicator of even/negative splits.

Quoted message said:

I spent 8 or so years measuring everything and the sport
got more like work rather than a break from work. It's so
much more fun now. Different strokes......

And, as you know, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid -
the "more like work" part. The "much more fun now" part is
what I like - and is probably more appropriate for goals. In
my actual training, I'm just trying to optimize training for
weaknesses.

Since I have a distinct tendency to say "gosh, that was fun
and challenging, let me do 5 more - today", I'm trying to
include enough information in my log, that I recognize
where I am, recovery needed, or how much more to do next
time - all in a time frame with changing weather conditions
(snow depth and hard/softness, ice, slush, etc) - in a
general sense.

No, I have no idea how long my walk breaks are - and if I'm
doing them on hills, many times I can keep effort level up
so they don't show on hrm either. Walking uphill hr is
usually greater than running downhill hr.

BTW, wasn't it you that asked me how can I tell if my
training is doing any good if I don't race much? And my
response was something like, "my hills feel easier". And I
guess that's still my only criteria 😉 Occasionally I look
at some of those fitness tests, like how far you can run in
6 or 12 minutes or whatever, but then wonder how you adjust
for snow depth, etc.

Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Sam said:

I think the 6min effort can be estimated based on
feel. It should be approaching maxHR pace, but I
worry less about HR.

It does not really matter. You are really looking to
get to the intensity so if you are running up hills,
you can still get a VO2max workout.

Thanks, Sam. That helps verify the approach I've been
taking.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article <WAbbc.19863$He5.387491@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dot wrote:

Quoted message said:

Training in groups is a very effective technique, and it
is one that is really not given its due in most training
books, IMO.

Actually, for my current status, I find a very strong
correlation with injury and running with others. Eventually,
maybe in a year or so, when my long runs are comfortably in
the 3-hr range, I will run with the Anchorage ultra group on
some of their easier runs - but not on one of their ice-axe-
suggested runs. I may also run with the local women's
running team for one run a year somewhere down the line (I'm
not into paying $100 for membership, but they allow 2 free
runs with the group). Our xt class was some of the same
people, and our warmup was pretty hard after the first 5-10
min - well over LT for me, and some going much higher
(places my hrm doesn't go with me running alone).

This seems to be one of the

Quoted message said:

factors that gives the Kenyans the edge, and to just
ignore it or at least fail to emphasize it as an important
part of training strikes me as a glaring omission.

I think the Italians use it also.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and you are one of the few here that I've seen post more
from the VO2max, LT perspective as opposed to distances
and paces. Thanks for

I tend to *think* in terms of VO2Max and LT perspective,
but sometimes I like to avoid communicating in these
terms, because it often just confuses people.

What might make posts more instructive, is when people know
both a pace and an effort level (e.g. LT) to post both of
them. To many (ok, maybe only some) people here, pace is an
academic concept since it's meaningful for only one sport
under similar course, environmental conditions. Training by
effort is much easier conceptually and I think enhances a
person's understanding of their training. Perhaps with more
exposure to the concepts, people might get unconfused 😉 As
Sam mentioned in another post and has been mentioned
elsewhere, the body works on time, not distance.

Quoted message said:

If you can do 4x4 minute repeats with about equal time jog-
rests, the pace is about right. After doing a few of these
workouts, one develops a feel for the pace, and can run
pretty close to it "by feel" alone. This is why
experienced runners like Doug F and Dan S are able to do
their workouts by effort alone.

Actually, even beginners should be able to run by effort
once they've been introduced to a new zone. That's the way
I learned, even on road running. Ok, it probably helped
that I couldn't hear the beeper on the hrm so learned
without that signal 😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or does it have a pct max hr or heart rate reserve that it
usually corresponds to?

Using heart rate becomes really problematic in this range
of intensity, because when you're training this hard, you
will be very close to your max. Since MHR can be
influenced by a number of variables, it's hard to tell the
difference betweeen 95%, 98%, and 100% MHR. MHR is not a
fixed constant.

Right. Up to VT/LT, I'm pretty good at estimates - or more
importantly, recognizing when I'm about to get cooked on a
hill if I don't back off a tad. Hrm is useless for this as
the change happens so fast on these hills and the hrm lags
too much. When I'm above that, I'm there accidentally so
haven't tried to maintain any particular effort level. For
me right now, most improvements are coming just by doing
hills below VT - like hr fartleks - or LT work.

Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot said:

Doug Freese wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I crank back up in May for my more serious training
I just love tempo runs on an unmeasured lightly
undulating road. I do 4-5 minutes at God forbid, some
unknown threshold pace, a minute rest and repeat for 3-6
times. Over some number of weeks I increase the number or
length of each surge. I simply feel the changes but could
never quantify it for a log book.

Let me rephrase my question from earlier gobbledy-[censored]: Do
you just wing it - based on breathing for effort level and
feel of muscles for injury prevention? or is there a little
more structure to what you're doing? That is, you listen to
your body and everything else takes care of itself.

Dot feeling guilty because what I'm doing seems to be
working yet is in violation of many training guidelines
except "listen to your body"

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot said:

Right. *Pace* is unknown, but your *effort* (threshold) is
known or approximated.

SWAG based off heavy breathing. 🙂

Quoted message said:

For curiosity, do you actually time your work/recovery
portions or just go by what feels right (either breathing
or muscles) for the first set or an artifact of
topography or ...?

One of the few times I actually wear and use the chrono
feature on a watch.

Quoted message said:

Then increase over the weeks - based on what your body
feels like at the time or deliberately pick a longer
interval or more of them and force yourself to that level?
Just curious.

I'll start with say 4 reps and hold it for two weeks. Then 5
for a few weeks then it's either six or longer 5 depending
on my mood and how much time I allot for tempo.

Quoted message said:

BTW, wasn't it you that asked me how can I tell if my
training is doing any good if I don't race much? And my
response was something like, "my hills feel easier". And I
guess that's still my only criteria 😉

You have a solid and varied base and are learning to trust
how you feel. Be careful not to nuts over the occasional bad
day yet watch for signs of over doing it. In my more
proactive days my log book would serve more as diary of how
I felt not so much as a number recorder. For instance many
years back I noticed I could only do two quality days a
week. If I tried to add a third I felt like [censored] and my
recovery suffered. I still only do two quality days which
might be 3-8 hours with N thousand feet of elevation on
Saturday and a tempo or medium size run/hike on a Wednesday.
For a few weeks time as I noted with Dan, I would do a
Sat/Sun B2B, maybe two of them. Those are the icing on the
cake to prevent severe fading during a race. I would NOT
recommend B2B's until you have some years under your belt.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Dot said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article <WAbbc.19863$He5.387491@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dot wrote:

Quoted message said:

Training in groups is a very effective technique, and it
is one that is really not given its due in most training
books, IMO.

Actually, for my current status, I find a very strong
correlation with injury and running with others.

I'm with you on this one Dot. I sure it depends on the group
but most of the time these are groups of aggressive runners
and they turn out to be "Big [censored]" contests. You will seldom
see a group say let's make sure we hold it down to 9's and
see how easy we can run. Even the alleged easy runs end up
getting horsed. There are usually some big guns and wanna be
big guns. The wanna be's try to follow the big boys since
they are faster. At times this helps the slower runner but
more often works in reverse. It's really dependent on
leadership to keep everyone in their appropriate group.

In my winter runs which are geared for the more aggressive
runners, I harp on this issue. Only one person injured this
year and that was from a sprained ankle while looking up to
see a squirrel loudly frying on the electric pole.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

factors that gives the Kenyans the edge, and to just
ignore it or at least fail to emphasize it as an
important part of training strikes me as a glaring
omission.

The Kenyans are a carefully hand picked group of relatively
even ability runners that run for money. Those that don't
make it are left by the wayside. IMO when you try to mimic
this concept without regards to ability and leadership it
turns into a mess. They are not emphasized because they
really only work for select relatively even paced runners
and how does that happen with open groups.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Dot said:

Let me rephrase my question from earlier gobbledy-[censored]:
Do you just wing it - based on breathing for effort
level and feel of muscles for injury prevention? or is
there a little more structure to what you're doing? That
is, you listen to your body and everything else takes
care of itself.

Wing it is based on years of experience in listening. It's
one of the reasons I don't use any tools to measure my
effort. If a HRM helps you level set your abilities and or
to ocasionaly measure progress fine. Thereafter they belong
in the drawer and you need to feel your runs.

Quoted message said:

feeling guilty because what I'm doing seems to be working
yet is in violation of many training guidelines except
"listen to your body"

Volating what guidelines?

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article <WAbbc.19863$He5.387491@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dot wrote:

Quoted message said:

Training in groups is a very effective technique, and it
is one that is really not given its due in most training
books, IMO.

Actually, for my current status, I find a very strong
correlation with injury and running with others.

The primary effect of running with others is that you run
harder. This may or may not be appropriate depending on the
type of run you're doing. I usually just use this for speed
work, so it's always treated as a hard workout, and I'm
always properly rested before it.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗