Times columnist ducks a Parris wire



In message <[email protected]>
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:


[snip]
>> Marathon plus tyres with presta valves;


> I just use standard Marathons and find them pretty robust with a
> puncture every blue moon or thereabouts. To the extent that I've never
> considered the better protection of the Plus, as the extra weight and
> rolling resistance will be there every inch I travel. If you're touring
> through Hedge Clipping central then maybe get a pair for that, but IME
> Marathons will do what's needed okay.


Rheumatic hands lead me to the plus.

>> SPD pedals - on the lowest security setting; and shoes;


> I mush prefer Time ATACs: no tension settings to faff about with,
> engagement along a line rather than at a point to make life easier and
> better float characteristics. They also seem to suffer less when your
> cleats are worn. Cost a bit more, but if it's a Dream Machine...


Thanks for that. I was anticipating gradually turning up the tension
as I become competent in getting my feet out, though...

> For shoes, try on everything you can as all the makers have different
> shapes. Cycle shops often don't have a very wide range so for this it's
> worth looking everywhere you can to try on more. I imagine Mr. Roberts
> would encourage this, as you might end up with what he has in any case.


Do shoes have standard cleats, or do the pedals come with them, and
you screw them on?

>> Hub dynamo and photo-sensitive stand lights front and rear;


> If it's a Dream, spend a little more on the SON, but the Shimanos work
> pretty well too at half the money.


Noted - yes, the Son gets a good press.

>> a Very Big rear cog and some smaller ones; half-step? triple front
>> chain rings?


> What about a Rohloff? Very big range, and vastly reduced maintenance
> and better reliability and a much tidier transmission. If you get a
> Rohloff you want a design that ideally eliminates a chain tensioner
> (eccentric BB or horizontal dropouts, though I imagine your man will
> know what's needed and what's best).


Do they do a gear control for anything other than flat bars? I need
comfortable hands.

>> Brakes (Rim)that I can operate with one finger; Magira hydraulics?


> That's Magura. HS-33s are the ones, I /really/ like the ones on my
> tourer. But they'll conflict with the drops you were after as the
> levers won't go on drops.


Hmm. perhaps I need to think through my choice of handlebars... The
drops look as though they will be the most comfortable and allow
greatest variety of hand position.

>> KoolStop salmon brake blocks;


> You're kind of stuck with Magura blocks if you've got their brakes. But
> IME they work well, and there's a choice of different flavours.


>> Brooks B17 saddle; (well. 50 years ago it was comfy)


> I like my Brooks and the B17 on the MTB is great. But possibly one of
> their other models as an alternative? A Flyer (sprung) or the totanium
> B17 to save a few grammes.


Ok - I wasn't thinking in terms of springs - but why not? Springs-or a
suspension seat post?

>> front and rear pannier racks;


> Tubus look like the ones I'd have. Perhaps you already have bags to put
> on them, but if not my personal choice is Ortlieb's lighter weight
> ("Plus"), in your choice of roll-top or buckle.


Thanks; a quick release bar-bag would be good for me as well.

>> Please suggest any changes I should consider; thank you, all.


> The mudguards I'd have are SKS.


Thanks.

> It'll be the Wrong Answer, I expect, but the touring bike of /my/ dreams
> has a comfy chair...


> http://www.hpvelotechnik.com/produkte/sm/gt/index_e.html


> Ever considered the Dark Side? ;-)


Yes! And tried them out, at London Recumbents, Dulwich Park.

I want to negotiate the tracks and bye-ways, and the tank traps on
Mitcham Common, and anti-bike chicanes would I think be easier with a
diamond frame.

I'll then dream of a Hase or HPvelotechnic trike.

The seat height and my fitness are a factor.

Thank you, Pete.

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.
 
[email protected]m wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>
> Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> [snip]
>>> Marathon plus tyres with presta valves;

>
>> I just use standard Marathons and find them pretty robust with a
>> puncture every blue moon or thereabouts. To the extent that I've
>> never considered the better protection of the Plus, as the extra
>> weight and rolling resistance will be there every inch I travel. If
>> you're touring through Hedge Clipping central then maybe get a pair
>> for that, but IME Marathons will do what's needed okay.

>
> Rheumatic hands lead me to the plus.


I would suggest different tyre levers, specifically ones which can put a
tyre back onto a rim.
Whilst I don't know the extent of your rheumatism, I would expect you to be
able to work a SpeedLever, or possibly, the VAR lever.


>> For shoes, try on everything you can as all the makers have different
>> shapes. .................

>
> Do shoes have standard cleats, or do the pedals come with them, and
> you screw them on?


AFAIK, Roberts do not carry any shoes.

Cycle shoes come in several types, but broadly they have two fixing
arrangements:

Road-racing shoes, smooth soled with three fixing holes for the BIG racing
cleats. These make you walk like a demented duck, and you wouldn't want to
walk more than 100yards in them.

Touring/MTB shoes. Have a recessed area (makers often require you to use a
Stanley knife to open this !) leading to two parallel tracks which take two
bolts into a threaded plate inside the shoe (usually visibile inside if you
remove the insole piece). Most touring/MTB cleats will fit this bolt
arrangement. Can walk for miles in these shoes, depending in rigidity of
sole unit.


>> What about a Rohloff?


> Do they do a gear control for anything other than flat bars? I need
> comfortable hands.


There is a German maker of a CNC milled adaptor which puts the Rohloff
shifter on the top of the drops (not the nasty old Thorn cut/shut on the
bars !!). Or one can fit it at the end of the drops, like a rotary bar-end
shifter (think that's a US adaptor). Or a second bar (Thorn current
solution).





- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
 
In message <[email protected]>
"Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote:


> This is my strongest recommendation:
> Drop most of your technical list. Go in with a list of your RIDING plans
> and what you currently ride, not a list of technical parts. Exception is
> the saddle and a few basic statements of need - touring, rack, drop/flat
> bars, lights, trailer bracket. If you are touring in remote places with
> someone else, compatibility of spare parts might be a requirement. Let them
> come back with a technical specification.


Thank you for this, Nigel.

I do appreciate the time people are taking to guide me.

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.
 
[email protected]m wrote:

> Rheumatic hands lead me to the plus.


Get your supplier to let you try their rims and a suggestion of levers
with a straight Marathon (or other choice of capable touring tyre).
Some tyre rim combinations are bastards, others are easy. Once you've
tried, then decide.

> Thanks for that. I was anticipating gradually turning up the tension
> as I become competent in getting my feet out, though...


ATAC is "Automatic Tension Adjustment Concept" or some other such
acronym. You simply don't need to concern yourself with tension
adjustment, and they remain easy to get in and out of. That you enter
along a line rather than at a point makes them easier.
Since pedals are effectively independent you might as well get started
now. Find some shoes you like and then borrow some clipless if you can,
then get a pair for your current bike and swap them on to the new one
when it's done.

> Do shoes have standard cleats, or do the pedals come with them, and
> you screw them on?


Pedals come with cleats or as separate spares. Different pedals take
different cleats, but different cleats have identical bolt spacings so a
given shoe will typically do any 2 bolt (SPuD, ATAC etc.) system or any
3 bolt (Look, SpuD-R) [note of ignorance on 3 bolt, that may be wrong,
but if you want to walk anywhere off the bike you probably don't want a
3 bolt system and the choice of shoes is much lower].

> Do they do a gear control for anything other than flat bars? I need
> comfortable hands.


See Nigel's reply.

> Hmm. perhaps I need to think through my choice of handlebars... The
> drops look as though they will be the most comfortable and allow
> greatest variety of hand position.


Depends ultimately on the riding position. Drops typically assume a
forward crouch, adopted for reasons of aerodynamics, which throws weight
onto your hands/arms. But a more upright position means more weight on
your backside and hand positions start to be less important becuase
you're not leaning on them as much so they don't get so tired (why it's
easy to drive at 10-2 for half a day with no real problems). If you've
got trouble with rheumatic hands this might actually be an important
comfort consideration. You'll go slower if you're more upright, but
your hands will take less strain.

More popular in Europe than over here are "butterfly bars", but they
provide a similar general concept of multiple riding positions. plus
you'll be able to put Maggies on them much more easily if you want them,
and probably a Rohloff shifter too.

Back to Nigel's plan of "these are the functional requirements, waht do
you think?", do mention your rheumatic hands and discuss the extent to
which that they cause you problems. The answers about bars and overall
riding position (and thus in turn frame geometry) may well be influenced
quite significantly.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>> KoolStop salmon brake blocks;

>
> You're kind of stuck with Magura blocks if you've got their brakes. But
> IME they work well, and there's a choice of different flavours.


One of which is KoolStop Salmon :)

(there's normal black, red/pink which is the one to get on normal rims, grey
which is for ceramic rims and green which is supposed to be slightly posher
on ceramic rims. Ok, there are other makes too, but those are the magura
ones and really all you need).

cheers,
clive
 
Clive George wrote:

> grey which is for ceramic rims


I know about those... stopped in at a cycle dealer touring in NL wanting
a spare set, and was most proud of myself that I managed to order them
in Dutch! A day and many miles on, I noticed the ones I had were for
ceramic rims. D'oh!
(Actually had more wear to go than I'd thought when I looked closer, so
I kept them and took them back and changed them for blacks next visit to
Den Haag)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Peter Clinch wrote:
> [email protected]m wrote:
>> Hmm. perhaps I need to think through my choice of handlebars... The
>> drops look as though they will be the most comfortable and allow
>> greatest variety of hand position.

>
> Depends ultimately on the riding position. ............
>
> More popular in Europe than over here are "butterfly bars", .......
>
> Back to Nigel's plan of "these are the functional requirements, waht
> do you think?", do mention your rheumatic hands and discuss the
> extent to which that they cause you problems. The answers about bars
> and overall riding position (and thus in turn frame geometry) may
> well be influenced quite significantly.


Yes, this is key information to give to Roberts; its how you ride and what
you can and cannot be comfortable riding.
Much more important than wanting a Magura XY127GL brake lever. (I concede
that this is your luxury bike; if you really want a brake lever, or pink fur
saddle, its your luxury bike, not mine.)
The aim is a bike which you sit on, put hands on bars, pedal down road and
think "that's dead right" (*).


The choice of bars affects most of the rest of the bike; the geometry, the
component options and even the "right" saddle. (The slightly skinny and
comfortable saddle on my Audax bike is hellish on my upright town commuter,
and visa-versa. ).

If a dropped "racing tuck" on the bottom of drop bars is not required, then
I would look at other handlebar arrangements, including the butterfly, the
old "North Road", etc. Also, on flatter bars, grips such as the Ergon are
worth considering (Roberts had them on customer's bikes on my visits).

I note Charles' signature lists a Brompton, which has an upright riding
position, due to both its handlebar design and relatively short saddle-bar
distance.




Not wishing to throw further stones in the pond, but has Charles considered
and rejected a Moulton ?



(* if its like my Roberts, first ride will be "that's a bit high", and
Roberts will then lower the saddle by 4mm and second ride will be "that's
perfect". They do this so there is no risk of scratching the seat-pin should
it be necessary to raise it a few mm to fit you. )


- Nigel


--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
 
In message <[email protected]>
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> do mention your rheumatic hands and discuss the extent to
> which that they cause you problems. The answers about bars and overall
> riding position (and thus in turn frame geometry) may well be influenced
> quite significantly.


Thank you, again, Pete. That was most informative and helpful.

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.
 
In message <[email protected]>
"Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Not wishing to throw further stones in the pond, but has Charles considered
> and rejected a Moulton ?


Err, no, because I already have a folder.

Wouldn't a Moulton suffer from the same slightly reduced adhesion
because of the small sized wheels, and poor ability over uneven
tracks?

I agree that they are super bikes.

Thank you for your further help and stimulation. I'll report back on
the 4mm; I sense the butterflies.

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.
 
"Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> Old Suntour Commander


Command

> shifters are a superior alternative to the Kelly, and the
> Suntour ergonomics actually works!


The Kellys work, and are more versatile, but like you I prefer the
ergonomics of the Suntours. My ideal would be a Suntour-shaped,
Shimano-9-compatible lever on Kelly-type mount. Well, this is a thread about
dream bikes.

> My tourer runs a set, circa 1990, and I think they ceased making
> them in the early 90's. They appear very occaisionally on Ebay.
> 7-speed indexed rear (works with Shimano spacing), with option
> to swap to friction shifting, and 3-speed friction front.


Suntour's indexing systems went through a number of changes before Maeda
went under. The very last levers made were fully compatible with Shimano,
though I don't know whether or not Command levers were still made at that
point. Earlier systems were intended for freewheels and cassettes with
variable sprocket spacing, and index pretty well - though not perfectly, in
my experience - with Shimano cassettes.

James Thomson
 
[email protected]m wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>
> "Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Not wishing to throw further stones in the pond, but has Charles considered
>> and rejected a Moulton ?

>
> Err, no, because I already have a folder.


But a Moulton is *not* a folder. Some/many are able to be
dis-assembled, but they aren't, and never have been, folders like a
Brompton. They're designed to be the best bikes to /ride/ that the
designer could do.

> Wouldn't a Moulton suffer from the same slightly reduced adhesion
> because of the small sized wheels, and poor ability over uneven
> tracks?


No, because they have excellent suspension, which actually means over
rough surfaces the wheels are in contact with the ground more than is
the case with a rigid setup.

There are currently various Moulton options. The start point is the
Pashley TSR range (http://www.tsr.uk.com/), there's also the AM and New
Series from Moulton themselves (http://www.alexmoulton.co.uk/) and the
Bridgestone (details at the Moulton website too).

The suspension might make life easier on the rheumatics, they typically
come with straights or drops but there's also the Moulton "Mosquito bar"
and any dealer wirth their salt could put alternatives on for you.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
In article <[email protected]>, Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>Pedals come with cleats or as separate spares. Different pedals take
>different cleats, but different cleats have identical bolt spacings so a
>given shoe will typically do any 2 bolt (SPuD, ATAC etc.) system or any
>3 bolt (Look, SpuD-R) [note of ignorance on 3 bolt, that may be wrong,


SPD-R is actually a two bolt system, but it has sort of outrigger things
that mean it likely won't fit on a typical touring shoe designed for the
vanilla SPD. http://www.cyclestore.co.uk/productDetails.asp?productID=6364

SPD-SL is the three bolt Shimano one.
http://www.cyclexpress.co.uk/.%2Fproducts%2FSPDSL_Cleats_(road).aspx
 
James Thomson wrote:
> "Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> a écrit:
>
>> Old Suntour Commander

>
> Command
>
>> shifters are a superior alternative to the Kelly, and the
>> Suntour ergonomics actually works!

>
> The Kellys work, and are more versatile, but like you I prefer the
> ergonomics of the Suntours. My ideal would be a Suntour-shaped,
> Shimano-9-compatible lever on Kelly-type mount. Well, this is a
> thread about dream bikes.


Agreed. They shouldn't be **that** hard to make, assuming one canibalised
the index ratchet components from a Shimano frame/bar-end shifter. I'd look
at casting in aluminium from wax of plastic patterns.

>
>> My tourer runs a set, circa 1990, and I think they ceased making
>> them in the early 90's. They appear very occaisionally on Ebay.
>> 7-speed indexed rear (works with Shimano spacing), with option
>> to swap to friction shifting, and 3-speed friction front.

>
> Suntour's indexing systems went through a number of changes before
> Maeda went under. The very last levers made were fully compatible
> with Shimano, though I don't know whether or not Command levers were
> still made at that point. Earlier systems were intended for
> freewheels and cassettes with variable sprocket spacing, and index
> pretty well - though not perfectly, in my experience - with Shimano
> cassettes.


My shifters are indexed on a Suntour spacing, some cogs are closer than
others. However, I find a Suntour derailleur runs acceptably on a Shimano
7-speed freewheel with careful setup. My derailleur is only a couple of
years old, found it in new-old-stock pile at a cycle jumble stall, and a big
improvement on the wobbly worn out pivots in my original one.

However, if/when the wheel needs rebuilding (when the rim goes), the bike
will probably get 8 speed Shimano rear and Campag 10 speed ergo shifters. I
have suitable 2006 vintage ergo shifters in the spares box for that day.





--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
 
[email protected]m wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>
> "Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Not wishing to throw further stones in the pond, but has Charles
>> considered and rejected a Moulton ?

>
> Err, no, because I already have a folder.


Some Moultons separate for easier transport (its an option to have a frame
which splits into two), but its NOT a folding bike. You can specify a
Roberts to have a similar frame split if required (S&S couplings).


> Wouldn't a Moulton suffer from the same slightly reduced adhesion
> because of the small sized wheels, and poor ability over uneven
> tracks?


No, because they have a suspension system designed for normal road and hard
track riding. They won't mud-plug or rock-bounce like a mountain bike, but
that is a different requirement.


The reasons for suggesting Moulton were to do with your comments on
rheumatism and handlebars. The front suspension on the Moulton should take
out a lot of vibration/sting, and the standard offering of "moustache"
handlebars might achieve enough hand positions and ride comfort.

Downside is, perhaps, mega-touring with four panniers, etc. Whilst a
Moulton will do this, and has a lot of luggage space, I wonder if the
current range of light and fairly delicate frames is quite suited. I don't
know if the Pashley TSR versions would be better suited to rough touring,
their 20in wheel would certainly be easier to find in bike shops than the
standard "real" Moulton size.





--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
 
Nigel Cliffe wrote:

> Downside is, perhaps, mega-touring with four panniers, etc. Whilst a
> Moulton will do this, and has a lot of luggage space, I wonder if the
> current range of light and fairly delicate frames is quite suited.


I thought the point of the space frames was strength despite lightness?

> know if the Pashley TSR versions would be better suited to rough touring,
> their 20in wheel would certainly be easier to find in bike shops than the
> standard "real" Moulton size.


NSMs use 20" (406) wheels too, while the AM and Bridgestone use 17"
(369), I think.

But only look into NSMs if your Dream has pretty serious financing.
Avon Valley Cyclery will do you one with a Rohloff fitted for a mere
£5,350 (more if you want it in stainless steel!).

There's a review of the AM Vitesse in the current VeloVision, and I
think the last but one issue of Cycle. There's a review of the TSR with
the 8 speed hub in an earlier VeloVision (I think 21, the one with Guy
riding a triple on the front cover).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Peter Clinch wrote:
> Nigel Cliffe wrote:
>
>> Downside is, perhaps, mega-touring with four panniers, etc. Whilst a
>> Moulton will do this, and has a lot of luggage space, I wonder if the
>> current range of light and fairly delicate frames is quite suited.

>
> I thought the point of the space frames was strength despite
> lightness?


I was concerned about transport damage, rather than loaded ridden damage,
see comments in recent Velovision review of AM Vitesse.


- Nigel


--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
 
Nigel Cliffe wrote:

> I was concerned about transport damage, rather than loaded ridden damage,
> see comments in recent Velovision review of AM Vitesse.


One advantage of a bike you can disassemble, OTOH, is it becomes
easier to pad out the bits.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
In message <[email protected]>
"Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Whilst a
>>> Moulton will do this, and has a lot of luggage space,


Gulp: yet more ideas. I shall re-read VeloVision.

And I got my ticket to TCRshow at Sandown Park...

Thank you again.

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.
 
>>>> Moulton will do this, and has a lot of luggage space,

<[email protected]> a écrit:

> Gulp: yet more ideas. I shall re-read VeloVision.


If the Moulton idea interests you, you could do far worse that call Paul
Villiers:

http://villiers-velo.co.uk/V-Works/main.htm

He's a real Moulton enthusiast, and can put together a bike to your
specifications based on any of the current frames.

While they're not for everyone, Moultons are very versatile, comfortable
bikes, and can make good tourers. I'd look at one of the TSR models.

James Thomson
 

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