Table manners

-L.' said:

It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
Mother.

Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty well-known to
us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your mother teach you
anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those elbows to yourself."

Warning to those attending the cook-in. 😉

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

Bob' virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz said:

Geez, you guys! This is a SPLENDID opportunity to have the family work as a
team! Here's what you do: At some prearranged signal, EVERYBODY should move
their chair as far back as possible, then adopt exactly the posture and
mannerisms of the offender.

I can just imagine...

You are an evil genius. Where have you been all my life?

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

I believe there are two first rules that apply to most English/Western
European dinners -
the hostess goes first on every dish, and what the hostess does
constitutes proper manners (utensil, manner of eating the dish, etc.
Probably done in part because of the Victorian penchant for eating all kinds
of new and strange things that often only the host knew how to eat, and for
a few other reasons)

The story goes that Queen Victoria was hosting a state dinner for the very
important Raja of some large Indian state. In the course of the meal, he
picked up the rose-petal-decorated finger bowl and drank from it, much the
shock and chagrin of the aghast guests.
Queen Victoria promptly picked up her finger bowl and drank from it,
pinkie slightly up. The other guests then drank from theirs, as was then
made proper for that meal by the hostess, and a political crisis was
averted.

"David Hare-Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners.

I

Quoted message said:

would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and

vice

Quoted message said:

versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a few
basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the

table

Quoted message said:

when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others,

eat

Quoted message said:

with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and

don't

Quoted message said:

entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents of
your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may

harm

Quoted message said:

the dog.

As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to

you

Quoted message said:

and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion

however

Quoted message said:

you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or

you

Quoted message said:

chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't see
myself as a manners Nazi.

I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes me
cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a

restaurant.

Quoted message said:

The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything

wrong.

Quoted message said:

I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be

long

Quoted message said:

term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.

The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the

table

Quoted message said:

for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the

plate.

Quoted message said:

He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
family dinner or a restaurant?

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?

David

Quoted post said:

One of our (U.S.) presidents was not quite so polite with his
guests. President Coolidge was presiding at a dinner, and was seen to
pour cream/milk in his saucer. The other guests followed suit (and
rumor has it that at least one began to sip from the saucer). Coolidge
smiled and then placed his saucer on the floor, where his cat was
waiting for the treat.

ROFLMAO! Thanks for sharing that. <G>

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

Damsel in dis Dress <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

-L.' said:

It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
Mother.

Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty
well-known to us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your
mother teach you anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those
elbows to yourself."

Warning to those attending the cook-in. 😉

Carol

Way outa my league...round here it's more like "No applause for the
belches!!!"

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 7.3, 5.5, 5.6 mmol
Continuing to be Manitoban

Monsur Fromage du Pollet <[email hidden]>, if that's their real name,

Quoted message said:

Damsel in dis Dress <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

-L.' said:

It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
Mother.

Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty
well-known to us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your
mother teach you anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those
elbows to yourself."

Warning to those attending the cook-in. 😉

Way outa my league...round here it's more like "No applause for the
belches!!!"

Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do better
next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very ladylike."

Carol ::burp::

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

Barb replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Geez, you guys! This is a SPLENDID opportunity to have the family
work as a team! Here's what you do: At some prearranged signal,
EVERYBODY should move their chair as far back as possible, then adopt
exactly the posture and mannerisms of the offender.

LOL! Shame on you! If the offensive guest were born into the family,
yeah, maybe; if he's not a member of the family now, that All Family act
might just get him out the front door never to be seen again unless he's
also possessed of an exceptional sense of humor. What's your backup
plan? "-)

I bet Queen Victoria and her court would have done it! :-þ

The notion is simple enough: Either the guy thinks his behavior is
acceptable (in which case he won't see anything wrong with other people
following suit), or he doesn't realize how it looks (in which case he'll
gain insight from seeing other people doing the same thing he does, and
maybe he'll mend his ways). If he's really emotionally fragile enough to be
driven away by something like that, then he's doomed anyway; there's BOUND
to be some incident sooner or later which would be at least as traumatic.

Bob

On Sat 26 Mar 2005 10:48:59a, Damsel in dis Dress wrote in
rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Monsur Fromage du Pollet <[email hidden]>, if that's their real

name said:

Damsel in dis Dress <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"-L." <[email hidden]>, if that's their real name, wrote:

>It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
>corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
>Mother.

Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty
well-known to us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your
mother teach you anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those
elbows to yourself."

Warning to those attending the cook-in. 😉

Way outa my league...round here it's more like "No applause for the
belches!!!"

Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do
better next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very
ladylike."

Carol ::burp::

This lady has class!

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

I once heard the tale of what has to be the worst table manners. A
friend told me about a woman he'd heard of, who was visiting someone for
tea. The host, a student, poured the tea, and then opened a milk
bottle, and before passing it to the guest, took a big swig directly
from it!

I was always taught, from a young age, not to drink straight from the
bottle, but apparently not everyone is taught this.

--
SteveR
(throw away the dustbin, send to stever@... instead)

Humans are way too stupid to be dumb animals.
http://www.accidentalcreditor.org.uk/

Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]>, if that's their real name,

Quoted message said:

On Sat 26 Mar 2005 10:48:59a, Damsel in dis Dress wrote in
rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do
better next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very
ladylike."

Carol ::burp::

This lady has class!

Which is why you married me. Wait! That was supposed to be a secret.
Sorry, Dumplin'.

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

sorry about this reply - it was sent during a spell-check and I thought it
didn't go, so I redid it in the following post - they should be basically
the same content.

"--" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think the oldest English rule is to do what the hostess does, and she

goes

Quoted message said:

first. I believe it stems form the Victorian penchant for trying all

things

Quoted message said:

new, (and practically speaking, it was damn unlikely you would how to eat
some steamed malay root)
She makes the first move on every dish, and you follow her lead - same
utensil, her manners, etc. You then know how and when and with what.

Story goes that Queen Victoria was hosting a political state dinner with
the Raj of some large Indian state.
He picked up the finger bowl (scented with floating rose petals) and
proceeded to drink out of it, much to the chagrin of the aghast guests.
Queen Victoria immediately proceeded to pick up her finger bowl and sip
from it, and the others followed her lead - important guest saved from
embarrassment by the first rules of hosting - what the hostess does is
proper, and the hostess goes first.

"David Hare-Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners.

I

Quoted message said:

would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and

vice

Quoted message said:

versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a

few

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the

table

Quoted message said:

when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others,

eat

Quoted message said:

with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and

don't

Quoted message said:

entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may

harm

Quoted message said:

the dog.

As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to

you

Quoted message said:

and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion

however

Quoted message said:

you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or

you

Quoted message said:

chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't

see

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

myself as a manners Nazi.

I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes

me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a

restaurant.

Quoted message said:

The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything

wrong.

Quoted message said:

I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be

long

Quoted message said:

term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.

The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the

table

Quoted message said:

for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the

plate.

Quoted message said:

He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
family dinner or a restaurant?

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so

what?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

David

-- said:

I think the oldest English rule is to do what the hostess does, and

she goes

Quoted message said:

first. I believe it stems form the Victorian penchant for trying all

things

Quoted message said:

new, (and practically speaking, it was damn unlikely you would how to

eat

Quoted message said:

some steamed malay root)
She makes the first move on every dish, and you follow her lead -

same

Quoted message said:

utensil, her manners, etc. You then know how and when and with what.

You watched way too many olde "sycho-fantasy" sailing movies.

Sheldon Kidd

David Hare-Scott said:

The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the table
for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the plate.
He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
family dinner or a restaurant?

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?

Maybe he was raised by dogs. Does he snap at you if your hand gets close to his
plate? Your description reminded me of a SCTV skit where Andrea Martin plays
the part of a woman who had been raised by a family of Canada Geese. For lunch
she put a bag of pop corn into a big bowl of water and stuck her head in the
bowl to bob for corn.

Unfortunately, it is bad manners to point out bad manners. The best you can do
is to set a good example.
If it really bothers you, try the old summer camp song.

Jimmy Jimmy if you're abel
Get your elbows off the table
This is not a horse's stable
But a public eating table

:-)

Ever watch Rick Steve's shows where he goes into a fancy European restaurant,
orders an elegant dinner and then holds his fork like a motorcycle handlebar?

"Sheldon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

-- said:

I think the oldest English rule is to do what the hostess does, and

she goes

Quoted message said:

first. I believe it stems form the Victorian penchant for trying all

things

Quoted message said:

new, (and practically speaking, it was damn unlikely you would how to

eat

Quoted message said:

some steamed malay root)
She makes the first move on every dish, and you follow her lead -

same

Quoted message said:

utensil, her manners, etc. You then know how and when and with what.

You watched way too many olde "sycho-fantasy" sailing movies.

Actually, its from several sources - the Marine embassy-duty school at San
Diego, a couple books on international business etiquette used when I was
travelling overseas to set up foreign partnerships for the companies, and
materials I have read adjunct to the restoration of the Victorian summer
home I have recently bought.

To be measured, there is implicitly a reference. That is, you will be
judged against some reference - and in dining settings, that reference for
etiquette will be the hostess, or in some countries where the women do not
have that role, the host.
Do what they do and wait for their lead, and you will usually come off as
being acceptably couth.

My mother was always one for reserved proper etiquette at the table, and
IMHO, it has been the deal-maker in many instances.

PS - I don't even remembering watching sailing movies - its a joke around
here about my viewing is just enough to recharge the DVD clock battery-
besides, my tastes run to foreign language films.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Kidd

Damsel in dis Dress said:

Monsur Fromage du Pollet <[email hidden]>, if that's their real name,

Quoted message said:

Damsel in dis Dress <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"-L." <[email hidden]>, if that's their real name, wrote:

>It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
>corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
>Mother.

Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty
well-known to us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your
mother teach you anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those
elbows to yourself."

Warning to those attending the cook-in. 😉

Way outa my league...round here it's more like "No applause for the
belches!!!"

Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do better
next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very ladylike."

Carol ::burp::

Yep. In our house, we say "God bless you."

Pastorio

-- said:

PS - I don't even remembering watching sailing movies - its a joke around
here about my viewing is just enough to recharge the DVD clock battery-
besides, my tastes run to foreign language films.

So, you mean I'm not the only one who watches the "Masseur Ichi" films
with subtitles on IFC?

Peter Aitken said:

"aem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Hare-Scott said:

[snip]
I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine

snipped....

Quoted message said:

A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was

holding a

Quoted message said:

state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the finger

bowls were

Quoted message said:

brought around, the king picked his up and drank the contents. The

Queen

Quoted message said:

immediately did the same, followed by all the other guests. Now

*that's*

Quoted message said:

manners!

I have a similar one about my paternal grand mote hr who was raised
very properly by her Scottish mother. My grandmother lived on a very
rural sugar plantation in Hawaii. Her lunch was always very formal-
never a sandwich. So one day some visiting Indian scientists came to
visit the plantation and my grandfather invited them to lunch at his
house.

My grandmother didn't have much time to prepare and told the cook to
just make more of the same stuff. So at lunch when the artichokes
came to the table, my grandmother noticed that the scientists were
eating the entire artichoke leaf and so did she. I believe the sharp
pointy tips had been cut off.

It is a family favorite story.

I on the other hand live very informally🙂, although equally rural-ly.

aloha,
Thunder
smithfarms.com
Farmers of 100% Kona Coffee
& other Great Stuff

AlleyGator said:

-- said:

PS - I don't even remembering watching sailing movies - its a joke around
here about my viewing is just enough to recharge the DVD clock battery-
besides, my tastes run to foreign language films.

So, you mean I'm not the only one who watches the "Masseur Ichi" films
with subtitles on IFC?

I like most of those foreign films. Bear in mind that most of them are the best
of their native language films. They are certainly better than the [censored] coming
out of Hollywood.

A lot of people are turned off by reading subtitles. I can speak / understand
some French and German. I start off reading the subtitles and after a while I
am listening to the dialogue and understanding most of it.

--' said:

My mother was always one for reserved proper etiquette at the table, and
IMHO, it has been the deal-maker in many instances.

We had a plate, paper napkin, and properly placed knife, fork, and spoon,
even if we were just having tomato soup and a grilled cheese sandwich. And
if you improperly reached for something, she'd stab the back of your hand
with a fork. Emily Post, eat your heart out!

Nowadays, I just put out whichever utensils will actually be used. Paper
napkins have been replaced by paper towels. I never stab Crash.

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

Bob (this one)' said:

Damsel in dis Dress said:

Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do better
next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very ladylike."

Carol ::burp::

Yep. In our house, we say "God bless you."

ROFL! I'm gonna have to remember that the next time Crash releases excess
gas from his oral cavity.

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon