Struck by Lightning?

and off course for the connesuier

http://www.mapcruzin.com/radiofrequency/

Bill Baka said:

Marty said:

The problem with those positions is that the pulse goes through your
heart, which is the real killer (ask any electrician). The ideal
stance would be to stand on one leg and lift the other leg high into
the air above your head. That way your head is safe and your heart is
safe too and you won't get voltage differentials from the ground.

Marty

Forget having any kids after that one but it does make sense to not
getit through the heart or head. Some lightning is so overwhelmingly
powerful that no matter where you got struck that part of your body
would be instant charcoal. The survival stories have been light to
medium blasts. I have seen one take down a tree over a foot in diameter
and I know that would kill someone or fry their limbs into uselessness.
Bottom line... avoid getting hit in the first place.
Bill Baka

So you get to the heart of the matter.

The truth is that, despite what you do to avoid lightning, it can and
will get you. So, there is no point in trying to escape it in normal
storms. There are some storms, however, that are so fraught with
lightning that it serves you to take shelter. It takes no genius to
recognize that lighting is more likely to strike you if you are the
tallest, most conductive element in the vicinity of the threshold spark,
but I believe that you are significantly no safer in your house. To be
scientific about it, you should compare deaths per thousand in various
activities, including sitting in your house. According to the U.S.
National Weather Service, 73 people die from lightning strikes each year
and hundreds more suffer life-debilitating injuries. But that isn't the
whole truth ... "For example, Rakov says that one square meter of
terrain in a flat Florida field gets hit by lightning once every 100
millennia, thus if that area gets hit, it would not be hit for another
1,000 human generations, which he considers in all practical purposes to
be never."

More information at
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0522_030522_lightning.html

More useful links:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/35_years_injuries.html
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/fatalities_us.html

In addition these storms often pose other threats.

So, based on my limited research and humble personal experience, my
belief is that the relative risk of lightning injury or death is
relatively small. You should worry more about walking across the street.

How many people refuse to get off their computers or telephones, or get
out of the shower when a thunderstorm approaches?

Like I said before, we (I mean all the kids in my small town in my
generation and earlier) would disregard thunderstorms and play in
ecstacy in the cooling wind and rain of a summer "blaster" in the
steaming St. Louis metro east area. None of them (or me) got hit.
There were lots of close calls (flash/bang). But those bolts could
easily come through the roof and get you anyway.

Robin Hubert

Geez Gene,

Here I was worried about watching the chain grease melt through the
observation window in the Amana.

The boat tail grackle with the tin foil hat may get the last laugh after
all.

Marcus

Robin Hubert said:

Bill Baka said:

Marty said:

The problem with those positions is that the pulse goes through your
heart, which is the real killer (ask any electrician). The ideal
stance would be to stand on one leg and lift the other leg high into
the air above your head. That way your head is safe and your heart is
safe too and you won't get voltage differentials from the ground.

Marty

Forget having any kids after that one but it does make sense to not
getit through the heart or head. Some lightning is so overwhelmingly
powerful that no matter where you got struck that part of your body
would be instant charcoal. The survival stories have been light to
medium blasts. I have seen one take down a tree over a foot in
diameter and I know that would kill someone or fry their limbs into
uselessness.
Bottom line... avoid getting hit in the first place.
Bill Baka

So you get to the heart of the matter.

The truth is that, despite what you do to avoid lightning, it can and
will get you. So, there is no point in trying to escape it in normal
storms. There are some storms, however, that are so fraught with
lightning that it serves you to take shelter. It takes no genius to
recognize that lighting is more likely to strike you if you are the
tallest, most conductive element in the vicinity of the threshold spark,
but I believe that you are significantly no safer in your house. To be
scientific about it, you should compare deaths per thousand in various
activities, including sitting in your house. According to the U.S.
National Weather Service, 73 people die from lightning strikes each year
and hundreds more suffer life-debilitating injuries. But that isn't the
whole truth ... "For example, Rakov says that one square meter of
terrain in a flat Florida field gets hit by lightning once every 100
millennia, thus if that area gets hit, it would not be hit for another
1,000 human generations, which he considers in all practical purposes to
be never."

More information at
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0522_030522_lightning.html

More useful links:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/35_years_injuries.html
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/fatalities_us.html

In addition these storms often pose other threats.

So, based on my limited research and humble personal experience, my
belief is that the relative risk of lightning injury or death is
relatively small. You should worry more about walking across the street.

How many people refuse to get off their computers or telephones, or get
out of the shower when a thunderstorm approaches?

Those are the people who get killed inside. only very rarely does a bolt
go through a window and seek someone out but talking on land line
without a wireless handset is asking for it. I did hear of one where a
woman was in her house and a bolt came in one corner window and out
another, killing her in the process, since she was standing in the
corner looking out both windows.
Strange things do happen.
Bill Baka

Quoted message said:

Like I said before, we (I mean all the kids in my small town in my
generation and earlier) would disregard thunderstorms and play in
ecstacy in the cooling wind and rain of a summer "blaster" in the
steaming St. Louis metro east area. None of them (or me) got hit. There
were lots of close calls (flash/bang). But those bolts could easily
come through the roof and get you anyway.

Robin Hubert

Robin Hubert said:

Yes, more people are struck outdoors. It figures. However, I
think the difference in relative risk is quite small,
considering the likelihood of death due to lightning in or
outdoors.

In the midst of a storm, what's the ratio of people in houses to
people outdoors? Hundreds to one, I'd guess. If the risk is
near equal, shouldn't we see more people killed indoors than
out? And more by a couple of orders of magnitude?

John

John Henderson said:

Robin Hubert said:

Yes, more people are struck outdoors. It figures. However, I
think the difference in relative risk is quite small,
considering the likelihood of death due to lightning in or
outdoors.

In the midst of a storm, what's the ratio of people in houses to
people outdoors? Hundreds to one, I'd guess. If the risk is
near equal, shouldn't we see more people killed indoors than
out? And more by a couple of orders of magnitude?

John

No no no ... you're missing my point. I'm talking about the risk of
getting struck, period. I just think the risk of being struck by
lightning is so small that the difference between the risk of getting
hit indoors or outdoors is insignificant. Now, I wouldn't want to be on
an open boat during an active thunderstorm ....

I wonder if there's any good statistical information regarding this?
You know, like, how many people get hit out in the open vs how many
people that are in the open and don't get hit. In other words, if you
stand where you are when the storm hits, what is your risk of getting
hit? What is your risk of getting hit if you take the best shelter
available?

How many get hit when there's no actual storm in the vicinity? I think I
read that most injury and death strikes occur before the storm actually
appears.

Curiously, lightning strikes are risks to people underground.
http://www.nols.edu/resources/research/pdfs/lightningsafetycavers.pdf
There are also records of people being struck inside their cars, with
windows up.

Really, I'm kinda talking about stuff which I know not alot, and am not
inclined to research. All I know is that I have lived through
thunderstorms without taking shelter, on and off the bike. I personally
don't know of anyone who's been struck by lightning. I don't know
anyone who knows anyone who's been struck. So, my "feeling" is that it
isn't a great risk, period. Like I said, I won't go act like a
lightning rod, but I don't think I'm likely to get struck, period.

More interesting than lightning:
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/essd10jun99_1.htm

Robin Hubert

Robin Hubert said:

No no no ... you're missing my point. I'm talking about the
risk of getting struck, period. I just think the risk of
being struck by lightning is so small that the difference
between the risk of getting hit indoors or outdoors is
insignificant.

Some places are renowned for their frequent and violent
thunderstorms, with a few occurring most afternoons in certain
seasons. I've lived in such a place, seen the exploded
tree-trunks, and prefer to be indoors given the opportunity
when lightning's about.

If you want to experiment with fatalism I can only wish you good
luck.

John

John Henderson said:

Robin Hubert said:

No no no ... you're missing my point. I'm talking about the
risk of getting struck, period. I just think the risk of
being struck by lightning is so small that the difference
between the risk of getting hit indoors or outdoors is
insignificant.

Some places are renowned for their frequent and violent
thunderstorms, with a few occurring most afternoons in certain
seasons. I've lived in such a place, seen the exploded
tree-trunks, and prefer to be indoors given the opportunity
when lightning's about.

If you want to experiment with fatalism I can only wish you good
luck.

John

John,
I have to agree 100% with you since I have been caught on a lake twice
by severe thunderstorms. Once when I was about 12 I took an Aluminum
boat out and was in the middle of a marsh fishing when a storm rolled in
over the trees with no warning. I couldn't possibly get out of the marsh
and off the lake so I laid down in the boat while lightning hit trees at
the edge of the marsh. Good thing for me that I wasn't the high point
and lightning didn't seek out a metal boat. 5 minutes later the sun came
out and it was as if it had never happened, except I was soaked and the
boat now had an inch of water in it.
The second time was in Northern Wisconsin in Woodruff on the Fourth of
July, 1985 and I had my wife and daughter in the boat with me. The lake
was surrounded by high trees so we couldn't see more that a quarter mile
of sky. A thunderstorm of large proportions came over the trees out of
the blue and it first started raining like crazy. Naturally I couldn't
get the POS outboard started so I rowed us into the docks and everyone
bailed out for our room at the lodge. Then the lightning came and was
really violent hitting not only trees but striking the lake on numerous
occasions. We were soaked and frozen but stood near the window to look
at our fourth of July natural fireworks show. We did have fireworks at
the lodge that night but they paled in comparison to that storm, and
Wisconsin is one of the few remaining states where you can buy big, real
firecrackers and not those stupid California Roman candles or whistling
things. Anyway, after the storm we went back to the boat and it had a
good 4" of water in it from less than 5 minutes while I was rowing like
crazy to get us back in.
I know for fact that Wisconsin and Minnesota have bad sneak up storms,
and so does Illinois except the you can see them coming over the corn
fields. Used to be corn fields, now they are all condos and houses.
Bill Baka (Like to watch, but only from inside).

Bill Baka said:

Peter said:

Clearly you're still assuming that you'll get hit directly rather than
the more likely situation where the lightning doesn't strike you but
hits close enough that you could still be injured or killed by the
resulting surface currents. The advice from NOAA, the Red Cross, and
similar organizations to crouch rather than lie flat on the ground is
based on studies that showed that it's much more likely that lightning
will hit somewhere near enough to you to cause injury than that you'll
be hit directly. The advice is entirely consistent with Ohm's Law.

I won't argue that point but just how many survivors are around to tell
their story of survival? Flat on your back with you feet pulled in and
your hands crossed on your chest with only your back on he ground gives
a minimal area for ligthing to hit or ground currents to to through.
You could always wear a chain mail suit.

Point the first: lightning is NOT logical, and it does NOT obey Ohm's law.
It does not usually hit the tallest thing around, or even the most
conductive thing around. What it goes for tends (but even this is not
necessarily always the case) to be things with a high field strength.[1]

Point the second: You're several dozen times more likely to be the victim
of a near strike than a direct strike, even if you're standing up in the
middle of a field, and the tallest thing around for miles.

Point the third: If you're lying flat while a near-strike occurs, you are
Dee-ee-aye-dee dead. If you're struck directly in whatever attitude,
ditto. If you're standing up or crouching when you have a near-strike, you
live.

Point the fourth: Lying down, standing up, or crouching doesn't alter the
odds of a direct strike very much, and even if it did, you're still dozens
of times more likely to have a nearby strike, unless you put up a pointy
umbrella. In fact, even by your own theory, you're lying down to avoid a
direct strike, but anything that was going to hit you direct is now
hitting something nearby -- which will still kill you deader'n a doormat
if you're lying flat on the ground.

Jasper

[1] Field strength isn't affected very much by conductivity, but it is
greatly affected by the shape of something. In HV labs, you'll always see
conductors terminating in balls and/or toruses -- that is because that
allows them to build up the highest voltages before arcing. That's why
lightning rods have sharp tips -- the sharp tips attract lightning, and
that is then safely routed to ground through the rods. Incidentally, 4
gauge wire is enough to make your house a lightning attractor but not
really enough to safely route it to ground. Also, you probably *really*
need a better grounding point than a single regular ground post. This
depends greatly on your soil though.

Jasper Janssen said:

Point the first: lightning is NOT logical, and it does NOT
obey Ohm's law. It does not usually hit the tallest thing
around, or even the most conductive thing around. What it goes
for tends (but even this is not necessarily always the case)
to be things with a high field strength.[1]

Point the second: You're several dozen times more likely to be
the victim of a near strike than a direct strike, even if
you're standing up in the middle of a field, and the tallest
thing around for miles.

Point the third: If you're lying flat while a near-strike
occurs, you are Dee-ee-aye-dee dead. If you're struck directly
in whatever attitude, ditto. If you're standing up or
crouching when you have a near-strike, you live.

Point the fourth: Lying down, standing up, or crouching
doesn't alter the odds of a direct strike very much, and even
if it did, you're still dozens of times more likely to have a
nearby strike, unless you put up a pointy umbrella. In fact,
even by your own theory, you're lying down to avoid a direct
strike, but anything that was going to hit you direct is now
hitting something nearby -- which will still kill you deader'n
a doormat if you're lying flat on the ground.

I agree with most of what you're saying. It's your first
sentence I'd dispute: "Point the first: lightning is NOT
logical, and it does NOT obey Ohm's law."

Just because a phenomenon's not fully understood doesn't make it
illogical.

Ohm's Law states that

I = V / R

(current = voltage / resistance) and I haven't seen any evidence
that it's wrong. If you simply mean that there's more to
understand than _just_ Ohm's Law, then the same applies to a
simple inductor fed with AC, and that's not very profound.

John

Jasper Janssen said:

Bill Baka said:

Peter said:

Clearly you're still assuming that you'll get hit directly rather than
the more likely situation where the lightning doesn't strike you but
hits close enough that you could still be injured or killed by the
resulting surface currents. The advice from NOAA, the Red Cross, and
similar organizations to crouch rather than lie flat on the ground is
based on studies that showed that it's much more likely that lightning
will hit somewhere near enough to you to cause injury than that you'll
be hit directly. The advice is entirely consistent with Ohm's Law.

I won't argue that point but just how many survivors are around to tell
their story of survival? Flat on your back with you feet pulled in and
your hands crossed on your chest with only your back on he ground gives
a minimal area for ligthing to hit or ground currents to to through.
You could always wear a chain mail suit.

Point the first: lightning is NOT logical, and it does NOT obey Ohm's law.
It does not usually hit the tallest thing around, or even the most
conductive thing around. What it goes for tends (but even this is not
necessarily always the case) to be things with a high field strength.[1]

Point the second: You're several dozen times more likely to be the victim
of a near strike than a direct strike, even if you're standing up in the
middle of a field, and the tallest thing around for miles.

Point the third: If you're lying flat while a near-strike occurs, you are
Dee-ee-aye-dee dead. If you're struck directly in whatever attitude,
ditto. If you're standing up or crouching when you have a near-strike, you
live.

Point the fourth: Lying down, standing up, or crouching doesn't alter the
odds of a direct strike very much, and even if it did, you're still dozens
of times more likely to have a nearby strike, unless you put up a pointy
umbrella. In fact, even by your own theory, you're lying down to avoid a
direct strike, but anything that was going to hit you direct is now
hitting something nearby -- which will still kill you deader'n a doormat
if you're lying flat on the ground.

Jasper

[1] Field strength isn't affected very much by conductivity, but it is
greatly affected by the shape of something. In HV labs, you'll always see
conductors terminating in balls and/or toruses -- that is because that
allows them to build up the highest voltages before arcing. That's why
lightning rods have sharp tips -- the sharp tips attract lightning, and
that is then safely routed to ground through the rods. Incidentally, 4
gauge wire is enough to make your house a lightning attractor but not
really enough to safely route it to ground. Also, you probably *really*
need a better grounding point than a single regular ground post. This
depends greatly on your soil though.

Very nice post (to the annoyance of those who hate "me too" posts).

Robin Hubert

John Henderson said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Point the first: lightning is NOT logical, and it does NOT
obey Ohm's law. It does not usually hit the tallest thing
around, or even the most conductive thing around. What it goes
for tends (but even this is not necessarily always the case)
to be things with a high field strength.[1]

Point the second: You're several dozen times more likely to be
the victim of a near strike than a direct strike, even if
you're standing up in the middle of a field, and the tallest
thing around for miles.

Point the third: If you're lying flat while a near-strike
occurs, you are Dee-ee-aye-dee dead. If you're struck directly
in whatever attitude, ditto. If you're standing up or
crouching when you have a near-strike, you live.

Point the fourth: Lying down, standing up, or crouching
doesn't alter the odds of a direct strike very much, and even
if it did, you're still dozens of times more likely to have a
nearby strike, unless you put up a pointy umbrella. In fact,
even by your own theory, you're lying down to avoid a direct
strike, but anything that was going to hit you direct is now
hitting something nearby -- which will still kill you deader'n
a doormat if you're lying flat on the ground.

I agree with most of what you're saying. It's your first
sentence I'd dispute: "Point the first: lightning is NOT
logical, and it does NOT obey Ohm's law."

Just because a phenomenon's not fully understood doesn't make it
illogical.

Ohm's Law states that

I = V / R

(current = voltage / resistance) and I haven't seen any evidence
that it's wrong. If you simply mean that there's more to
understand than _just_ Ohm's Law, then the same applies to a
simple inductor fed with AC, and that's not very profound.

John

What makes it not obey Ohm's law directly is that it is a dynamic
environment, of many variable which we have little to no comprehension
(at the local level). That's why lightning is so unpredictable.

Robin Hubert

John Henderson said:

I agree with most of what you're saying. It's your first
sentence I'd dispute: "Point the first: lightning is NOT
logical, and it does NOT obey Ohm's law."

Just because a phenomenon's not fully understood doesn't make it
illogical.

Ohm's Law states that

I = V / R

(current = voltage / resistance) and I haven't seen any evidence
that it's wrong. If you simply mean that there's more to
understand than _just_ Ohm's Law, then the same applies to a
simple inductor fed with AC, and that's not very profound.

John

Go John,
Another engineering type on here. Ohm's law may just find a lower
resistance path to you than those trees over there. Why, because
absolutely pure water is an insulator and the rain water is basically
distilled water coming down. Have you ever heard of a 'Bolt from the
blue?'. That means you can get hit while still dry because the air may
be more ionized in your dry area that in the rain. No references here,
just look it up for yourself. Got me a sore typing finger today.
Bill Baka

John Henderson said:

I agree with most of what you're saying. It's your first
sentence I'd dispute: "Point the first: lightning is NOT
logical, and it does NOT obey Ohm's law."

Just because a phenomenon's not fully understood doesn't make it
illogical.

Ohm's Law states that

I = V / R

(current = voltage / resistance) and I haven't seen any evidence
that it's wrong. If you simply mean that there's more to
understand than _just_ Ohm's Law, then the same applies to a
simple inductor fed with AC, and that's not very profound.

No, but lightning operates outside the parameters where Ohm's law is
valid. It's not DC, and it's far too high-energy. Ohm's law by definition
operates on resistance only, and not inductance or capacitance, plus at
the energy domains involved even the effective DC resistance of an object
may bear only the slightest resemblance to that which it has to low
voltage (where I'm using low voltage in the linesman's sense of anything
under 1000 Volts).

As far as the logic, it does not observe normal common sense logic, and in
fact the natural laws it presumably does obey are not very well understood
-- partly because there appears to be a great element of chance involved.

Jasper

what cfm squirrel installed on the amana?

Quoted message said:

what cfm squirrel installed on the amana?

I don't think it's got one, live things and the radarange don't seem to
get along. It's dandy for melting grease for dipping a chain, one
second it's a blob the next second it's a liquid. You can't put the
chain in the oven or it gets struck by lightnings. You can't stare at
it too long either or it makes you see rainbows around things.

Quoted message said:

what cfm squirrel installed on the amana?

Yep! Fricassee is best!

Robin (couldn't help myself) Hubert

weatherchannel.com.ru

at http://www.weather.com/maps/garden.html?from=globalnav

scroll down at the map box to the bottom for strike potential

so the grease fumes go where?

Track lightning in your area? Check the weatherchannel.com.ru site and
go to>

to view a local; radar click on an area of interest at the site-

http://weather.noaa.gov/radar/mosaic/DS.p19r0/ar.us.conus.shtml

and check out these sites-

http://www.noaa.gov/lightning.html

http://www.noaa.gov/sitemap.html

http://www.noaa.gov/wx.html