Struck by Lightning?

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:15:23 +0800, Marty <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Fritz M said:

John Thompson said:

But carbon fiber *DOES* conduct electricty!

And at voltages that lightning occurs at, so does air and rubber tires.

RFM

Carbon fibre conducts at low voltages and is good at it. People working
with it prefer pneumatic drills and saws because the fibres get into
electric motors and give shocks.

Marty

Dear Fritz and Marty,

While carbon fiber is a good conductor, a "diamond" frame
should be a good insulator:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/1.htmlment/review/Test2/t2q63.html

Carl Fogel

On Sun, 29 May 2005 17:41:15 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

While out for a ride today, I got caught in a brief thundershower (sure
am glad my Rambouillet has fenders!)

It got me wondering, though--how much risk is there of being struck by
lightning while cycling? I wasn't too worried, being in rolling terrain
with trees and power lines all around, but maybe it's a greater risk in
treeless flatland?

Does anybody have any PERSONAL experience, either having been struck by
lighning or actually knowing someone who was struck by lightning while
riding a bike?

I don't want to hear about perceived "close calls", only cases where a
cyclist was actually struck.

Sheldon "ZAP!" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------+
| Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god |
| superior to themselves. Most gods have the |
| manners and morals of a spoiled child. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+---------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide

Since no one here wrote about their experience of being killed by lightning:
http://list.massbike.org/archive/200107/0211.html

and here is some general information.

http://www.lightningsafety.com

"Ben Kaufman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 29 May 2005 17:41:15 -0400, Sheldon Brown
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

While out for a ride today, I got caught in a brief thundershower (sure
am glad my Rambouillet has fenders!)

It got me wondering, though--how much risk is there of being struck by
lightning while cycling? I wasn't too worried, being in rolling terrain
with trees and power lines all around, but maybe it's a greater risk in
treeless flatland?

Does anybody have any PERSONAL experience, either having been struck by
lighning or actually knowing someone who was struck by lightning while
riding a bike?

I don't want to hear about perceived "close calls", only cases where a
cyclist was actually struck.

Sheldon "ZAP!" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------+
| Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god |
| superior to themselves. Most gods have the |
| manners and morals of a spoiled child. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+---------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide

Since no one here wrote about their experience of being killed by
lightning:
http://list.massbike.org/archive/200107/0211.html

And how WOULD someone write about being killed by lightning??

Ken

Quoted message said:

and here is some general information.

http://www.lightningsafety.com

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:15:23 +0800, Marty <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Fritz M said:

John Thompson wrote:

>But carbon fiber *DOES* conduct electricty!

And at voltages that lightning occurs at, so does air and rubber tires.

RFM

Carbon fibre conducts at low voltages and is good at it. People working
with it prefer pneumatic drills and saws because the fibres get into
electric motors and give shocks.

Marty

Dear Fritz and Marty,

While carbon fiber is a good conductor, a "diamond" frame
should be a good insulator:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/1.htmlment/review/Test2/t2q63.html

Carl Fogel

Don't listen to the experts, measure it yourself. I measured the
resistance of some carbon fibre strands and was suprised at how good a
conductor it was.

Hows this,
Diamond conducts heat better than anything - five times better than the
second best element, Silver!

And!

They make good heatsinks for electronic devices!

http://www.margaretmorrisbooks.com/diamond_microcircuitry.html

Marty

Tue, 31 May 2005 09:41:13 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Ken said:

And how WOULD someone write about being killed by lightning??

You've never heard of ghost writers? (in the sky)
--
zk

"Ken" wrote: And how WOULD someone write about being killed by lightning??
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I also want to hear from the people who never read the question. (It's a
joke, Ken.)

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ken" wrote: And how WOULD someone write about being killed by
lightning??
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I also want to hear from the people who never read the question. (It's a
joke, Ken.)

Yeah I kind of figured it was a joke.
Ken

"Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fritz M said:

John Thompson said:

But carbon fiber *DOES* conduct electricty!

And at voltages that lightning occurs at, so does air and

rubber tires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

RFM

Yes and it's been shown that lightening will come right through

your

Quoted message said:

car, too. Not alot of places to really hide from lightening,

really.

Quoted message said:

When we were kids we'd play through thunderstorms all the time.

I guess

Quoted message said:

that, when you really figure your chances, it's probably not

going to

Quoted message said:

get you anyway and, if it is, it will probably get you anyway.

Like the Mark Twain bit ... thanks to CF.

I was riding in western Kentucky, on the bank of Rough River Lake
about to descend into the campground, when lightning landed about
ten feet away -- hitting a Cadillac and blowing apart the
concentrator on its CB antenna. What I remember the most was the
giant ka-boom. It was like having a cannon go off in my ear. We
talked to the occupants of the car a little later while huddled
under a covered picnic area (during the usual mid-afternoon
torrential downpour), and one claimed that the lightening struck
just after he made a statement to the effect of "if I am lying,
may God strike me down." That seemed a little too fortuitous,
but it made for a good story. -- Jay Beattie.

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Jan Lindstrom said:

Werehatrack said:

Why do I get the inescapable feeling that this is about to devolve
into a discussion of how carbon-framed bikes with carbon rims and
spokes are inherently safer than metal bikes because they don't
conduct electricity?

But does it make a difference what material you're on? All the carbon
fibre fishing rods have a warning not to use them in lightning. And the
hikers I know (inclusing me) always put them some ways apart from the
tents when hiking in treeless northern Finland.

_ It's shape not material that's important, pointy things
concentrate the static charge. If lightning can jump an
air gap of kilometers, it's not going to be much
bothered by a meter or two of anything but vaccum.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Sheldon Brown asked:

Quoted message said:

how much risk is there of being struck by lightning
while cycling?

From Book_of_Risks by Susan Skolnick [National Press, 1985]:

"Thunderstorms can be dangerous to anyone, but are particularly
threatening to golfers and bicyclists."
...
"Lightning storms cause about 100 deaths and 245 injuries each year."

Quoted message said:

Does anybody have any PERSONAL experience, either having
been struck by lighning or actually knowing someone who
was struck by lightning while riding a bike?

I didn't know him personally, but around the time I moved to Sacramento
in 1985, a cyclist on the American River Bicycle Trail (later morphed
into the Jedediah Smith MURP) was struck by lightning. The lightning
strike put a fist-sized hole in his helmet, and rendered him unconscious.

--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)

alan said:

When I first got involved in amateur radio, I attended a
lecture on lightning safety given by a commercial tower
technician. As others noted, most deaths are due to ground
current, not direct strikes.

Likewise, I once attended a lecture on lightning safety. Ground
current was identified as a major problem. I should think that
risk from ground current would be small while riding a bike
(you've got a conductive frame between the wheels), but a
direct strike would be another matter.

The advice I got about what to do when caught outside was clear
and sensible. Don't seek shelter under a tree. Stand (or
better still, crouch) in the open. Especially when you feel
your hair standing on end, put your feet together (minimize the
ground current flowing from one leg to the other) and crouch as
low as possible. Also avoid a different risk from ground
current by avoiding the shelter of small caves or overhangs.

John

On Tue, 31 May 2005 07:13:20 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tue, 31 May 2005 09:41:13 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Ken said:

And how WOULD someone write about being killed by lightning??

You've never heard of ghost writers? (in the sky)

Their pens are still on fire and their paper is soaking wet...

Jasper

In article <[email hidden]>,

Matt O'Toole said:

You're protected in a car because the metal forms a protective cage around you

Best I tell that to my wife's Saturn.

Marty said:

Don't listen to the experts, measure it yourself. I measured the
resistance of some carbon fibre strands and was suprised at how good a
conductor it was.

Epoxy resin, however, isn't. Having not tried to measure the point to
point surface or exposed-potential-interface conductivity of any
carbon frame, I don't know if there's a good, solid path there or not,
but I doubt that it's as effective in this area as steel or aluminum.

Not that it matters; as pointed out, the important criterium is
whether the frame is over the strike point (or on a side path, of
which there may be many) when the discharge occurs. The frame could
be made of porcelain if the bike was over the discharge point, and it
wouldn't matter very much.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

John Henderson said:

Also avoid a different risk from ground
current by avoiding the shelter of small caves or overhangs.

I've never understood the risk in small caves or overhangs. Can you
explain?

- Frank Krygowski

Robatoy said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Matt O'Toole said:

You're protected in a car because the metal forms a protective cage around you

Best I tell that to my wife's Saturn.

The Saturn's got a lot of steel in it. The plastic is just a shell on
the vertical panels, IIRC.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 31 May 2005 09:41:13 -0400, "Ken" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since no one here wrote about their experience of being killed by
lightning:
http://list.massbike.org/archive/200107/0211.html

And how WOULD someone write about being killed by lightning??

Ken

Quoted message said:

and here is some general information.

http://www.lightningsafety.com

Very quickly indeed.

Ben

Quoted message said:

John Henderson said:

Also avoid a different risk from ground
current by avoiding the shelter of small caves or overhangs.

I've never understood the risk in small caves or overhangs. Can you
explain?

- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

"Concerning rocky overhangs, more likely than not, it will
be raining when lightning strikes something on the surface.
If you're under an overhang, current could strike above you
and travel through rain water over the ground that is
flowing down into the cave or opening. This situation
appears to have happened a number of times recently in
Colorado."

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/archives-lightning-safety.htm

Basically, the idea is to stay out of wet holes.

Carl Fogel

Robatoy said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Matt O'Toole said:

You're protected in a car because the metal forms a protective cage around you

Best I tell that to my wife's Saturn.

You're still surrounded by a metal spaceframe underneath the polyurethane.

Quoted message said:

I've never understood the risk in small caves or overhangs.
Can you explain?

Huge currents can be flowing in the vicinity. The voltage
differential between different exposed surfaces can be high
enough to discharge across the gap, with any occupant as part
of the circuit.

John