spoke length?

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

> datakoll wrote:
>> what's proven is:
>> the theoreticians aren't building wheels
>> have poor memories
>> can't answer the question
"jim beam" wrote:
> dude, you're by far the wittiest guy on this group....

Tom Sherman said:

"jim beam" is correct.

Me three. Gene's contributions are greatly appreciated.
jb, Tom and I are at one in this(!).

That can't be right.

could be three lefts though...

Chalo said:

J Taylor said:

Carl Fogel said:

An example of a truly excessive calculator that lets you put in the
desired tension, modulus of elasticity, thickness, and so on:
http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spokes/spoke_length_calcul...
Results are in tenths of a millimeter. It really ought to include a
field for temperature, since the spokes must shrink a little in cold
weather.

A very little. Values for steel are (from memory) about 8 millionths of an
inch per inch per degree; so a 100 degree change in an 11 inch spoke would
be on the order of a hundredth of an inch.

That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar. In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

and thus mavic's aluminum spoke usage is vindicated...

Chalo said:

Carl Fogel said:

Chalo said:

In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

Even worse, at least one calculator nibbles its fingernails and
worries about how much the spoke tension caused the aluminum rim to
contract.

I should have expected that. Now we're going to have to come up with
an almost infinitely stiff rim material to address such sophisticated
concerns. We can add another potential use for synthetic diamond to
the already lengthy wish list!

Quoted message said:

We have the tools to calculate spoke lengths to 0.1 mm, so it's a
mystery why spokes don't come in 0.5 mm lengths. After all, half a
millimeter is almost exactly one turn of a 52 tpi spoke nipple.

Not that it matters, but I believe they are 56 tpi threads. At least
a #2-56 nut will thread onto a 2.0mm spoke with obvious disparity only
in its diameter.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

It's nice of you to correct me so gently, but . . .

I was just flat wrong, and you and Andrew (and probably others)
noticed it right away--56 tpi, not 52 tpi.

As for the calculators, some even try to factor in the extra length
involved in the tiny bends of 3-cross versus radial lacing.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,

dabac said:

jim beam said:

...then the math is not being used correctly. garbage in, garbage out.

I'll happily trust the math itself, but sometimes it can be a real PITA
to track down the real dimensions, particularly when there are
conficting numbers available. A hub is no big deal to measure, but a rim
is more awkward.
If you have the stuff at hand I suppose it's reasonably doable, but if
you want to place an order for both hub, rim and spokes simultaneously
it can be a real nuisance.

Don't Panic.
Good instructions for accurately measuring effective rim diameter.
<http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm>
Best to measure at least 3 different diameters; for practice,
to detect a mis-measurement, to detect a rim out of round.

--
Michael Press

On 2008-01-31, datakoll <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

NOW, "The ERD is the diameter to which the threaded ends of spokes are
to
reach, and that is the top of spoke nipples inserted in the rim.
This
can be assessed by measuring the outside rim diameter and subtracting
twice the distance measured down to the spoke nipple head from this
outer diameter... meaning Effective Rim Diameter for spoking."

WHY?

That's the definition of ERD.

Quoted message said:

Measure the diameter. Practice measuring the diameter. Write that
number down.
Take a spoke and stick it in the eyelet until flush with the outside
eyelet. Magic Tape the shaft where the shaft enters the inside eyelet
surface. Measure that and add to rim diameter.

BUT THAT'S NO GOOD! The real life spoke should be shorter than the
inside eyelet where the nipple seats.
Are spoke calcs taking this into account or am I asking spoke cals to
take my personal opinion into account where a spoke threading should
not bottom out in practical use when building wheels?

Calculators should give you a length based on the ERD. In other words,
they assume you want the spoke to reach the top of the nipples.

If you want them a bit shorter (matter of personal opinion) then
subtract 1mm from the ERD before you put it into the calculator.

I wanted to be sure how spoke calculators worked and whether they
contained personal opinions of their authors. I managed to replicate the
results of the DT one with just the formula on Wikipedia and subtracting
half the spoke hole diameter at the end. Since they ask for spoke hole
diameter it must be involved.

But I can tell you for sure it is working on the assumption that you
want spoke to reach exactly the point the ERD is measured from.

You can check my program if you like. It isn't any better than the
Rinard spreadsheet or any other calculator, but it might be clear what
the maths is. All distances in the same unit (use mm).

http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/spokalc.py

BEN C.-

"Calculators should give you a length based on the ERD. In other
words,
they assume you want the spoke to reach the top of the nipples.

If you want them a bit shorter (matter of personal opinion) then
subtract 1mm from the ERD before you put it into the calculator. " -
BEN C.

Andrew Muzi also suggests the program his shop's using has an ERD just
touching the inside rim surface.

yes. I agree. I am confused? maybe.
My problem is with double wall rims: Sun Rim's Cr-18 and Sun Rim's
Rhino. Mail Odor and LBS software did not come up with the correct
lenghts.
The LBS was selling spokes so foolery is not on there.
When I used the LBS computer, recently deceased, 1 out of 6 tries
coughed up the correct lengths. The owner didn't extract any right
lengths. Computer dummy hasn't learned to write paths and goes on a
menatl trial and error list so we don't know how.

But what kept happening was spoke ends were too long, in the best
length's threaded down just as the nipple seated loosely into eyelet.
From the software directions, maybe misread, it appeared to me that
was the ERD, where the spoke threaded fully and at that same cosmic
instant reached full Jobst Brandt Group One Wheel perfection seating
down immovabbley into the eyelet. Ahhhhhh...

But that's wrong. The ERD is from axle center to inside rim surface?

AS SHELDON BROWN'S GLOSSARY:
E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes. The E.R.D. is needed for calculating
the correct spoke length.

That said. Jim Beam wants to know why not measure. Well, because the
Mail Odor Wharehouse(s) say
NO PROBLEM! WE HAVE A SPOKE CALCULATOR.

then I have the parts and do a pre-build lacing on the tubahfour (red
oak). The question was: WHERE DOES THE EXPERIENCED WHEELBUILDER END
HIS SPOKES? touching the rim, 1mm from the rim ...
and the answers are:
touching the rim
1mm from the rim
or maybe 2mm from the rim if the spokes in the pretrial are
untightened
BUT keep in mind other forces may lenghten the spoke 1-2mm so
excercise caution.

and you can read, spoke calcs aren't producing for me.

I don't need to do this again unless 650B goes into monopoly.
eyyyahhhhh.

wouldn't it be cool. ahh the spokes the hub the rim. let's see string
this together. true it up. ahhh nice wheel.

forgetaboutit. ^%#!!QWAS9)*!!xx

Gene Daniels said:

"Calculators should give you a length based on the ERD. In other
words, they assume you want the spoke to reach the top of the
nipples.

Quoted message said:

If you want them a bit shorter (matter of personal opinion) then
subtract 1mm from the ERD before you put it into the calculator. "

Quoted message said:

Andrew Muzi also suggests the program his shop's using has an ERD
just touching the inside rim surface.

Quoted message said:

yes. I agree. I am confused? maybe. My problem is with double
wall rims: Sun Rim's Cr-18 and Sun Rim's Rhino. Mail Odor and LBS
software did not come up with the correct lengths.

Quoted message said:

The LBS was selling spokes so foolery is not on there. When I used
the LBS computer, recently deceased, 1 out of 6 tries coughed up the
correct lengths. The owner didn't extract any right lengths.
Computer dummy hasn't learned to write paths and goes on a mental
trial and error list so we don't know how.

Quoted message said:

But what kept happening was spoke ends were too long, in the best
length's threaded down just as the nipple seated loosely into
eyelet. From the software directions, maybe misread, it appeared to
me that was the ERD, where the spoke threaded fully and at that same
cosmic instant reached full Jobst Brandt Group One Wheel perfection
seating down immovably into the eyelet. Ahhhhhh...

Quoted message said:

But that's wrong. The ERD is from axle center to inside rim
surface?

Quoted message said:

AS SHELDON BROWN'S GLOSSARY:

Quoted message said:

E.R.D.

Quoted message said:

Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes. The E.R.D. is needed for
calculating the correct spoke length.

That's one interpretation but since the term arose first in "the
Bicycle Wheel, as did the geometric equations that are commonly used
today, I think this is not correct because that diameter is used to
calculate the diagonals from sums of squares to give the length to the
outer end of spokes. That point being a nipple head farther out.

The proper length should reach the end of the nipple when tight, not
the bed of the rim, which is as much as 3mm short of that. That is
why it is called an "effective rim diameter", because it is not
theinner outer or other real diameters.

Quoted message said:

That said. Jim Beam wants to know why not measure. Well, because the
Mail Odor Warehouse(s) say " NO PROBLEM! WE HAVE A SPOKE CALCULATOR."

Quoted message said:

then I have the parts and do a pre-build lacing on the tubahfour (red
oak). The question was: WHERE DOES THE EXPERIENCED WHEELBUILDER END
HIS SPOKES? touching the rim, 1mm from the rim ...
and the answers are:
touching the rim
1mm from the rim
or maybe 2mm from the rim if the spokes in the pretrial are
untightened
BUT keep in mind other forces may lenghten the spoke 1-2mm so
excercise caution.

Quoted message said:

and you can read, spoke calcs aren't producing for me.

Quoted message said:

I don't need to do this again unless 650B goes into monopoly.
eyyyahhhhh.

Quoted message said:

wouldn't it be cool. ahh the spokes the hub the rim. let's see
string this together. true it up. ahhh nice wheel.

Quoted message said:

forgetaboutit. ^%#!!QWAS9)*!!xx

Eh? So waht was the point other than spreading incorrect information.

Jobst Brandt

Michael Press said:

Don't Panic....

And remember to bring your towel!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

datakoll said:

BEN C.-

"Calculators should give you a length based on the ERD. In other
words,
they assume you want the spoke to reach the top of the nipples.

If you want them a bit shorter (matter of personal opinion) then
subtract 1mm from the ERD before you put it into the calculator. " -
BEN C.

Andrew Muzi also suggests the program his shop's using has an ERD just
touching the inside rim surface.

yes. I agree. I am confused? maybe.
My problem is with double wall rims: Sun Rim's Cr-18 and Sun Rim's
Rhino. Mail Odor and LBS software did not come up with the correct
lenghts.
The LBS was selling spokes so foolery is not on there.
When I used the LBS computer, recently deceased, 1 out of 6 tries
coughed up the correct lengths. The owner didn't extract any right
lengths. Computer dummy hasn't learned to write paths and goes on a
menatl trial and error list so we don't know how.

But what kept happening was spoke ends were too long, in the best
length's threaded down just as the nipple seated loosely into eyelet.
From the software directions, maybe misread, it appeared to me that
was the ERD, where the spoke threaded fully and at that same cosmic
instant reached full Jobst Brandt Group One Wheel perfection seating
down immovabbley into the eyelet. Ahhhhhh...

But that's wrong. The ERD is from axle center to inside rim surface?

AS SHELDON BROWN'S GLOSSARY:
E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes. The E.R.D. is needed for calculating
the correct spoke length.

That said. Jim Beam wants to know why not measure. Well, because the
Mail Odor Wharehouse(s) say
NO PROBLEM! WE HAVE A SPOKE CALCULATOR.

then I have the parts and do a pre-build lacing on the tubahfour (red
oak). The question was: WHERE DOES THE EXPERIENCED WHEELBUILDER END
HIS SPOKES? touching the rim, 1mm from the rim ...
and the answers are:
touching the rim
1mm from the rim
or maybe 2mm from the rim if the spokes in the pretrial are
untightened
BUT keep in mind other forces may lenghten the spoke 1-2mm so
excercise caution.
and you can read, spoke calcs aren't producing for me.
I don't need to do this again unless 650B goes into monopoly.
eyyyahhhhh.
wouldn't it be cool. ahh the spokes the hub the rim. let's see string
this together. true it up. ahhh nice wheel.
forgetaboutit. ^%#!!QWAS9)*!!xx

In other correspondence with Gene today, I snapped a photo of a wheel
our #1 wheelbuilder finished a couple hours ago. Although the nipple
brand we currently prefer can thread all the way through, not all brands
can. Some nipple threads bind terribly as the spoke extends into the
slot. We shoot for a length just at the inside edge of the rim or at the
start of the slot as shown here:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPOKDEPT.JPG

If you work with any given spoke calculation software regularly, you can
tweak your results as finely as you like, down to that 1mm difference
between bottom of slot and top of slot.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Ok we can flag this down. Beam is right. Forget the calc's database
because the calc software is about to choose an ERD for you and right
off the results aren't headed your way.

The spoke calc is probbably Brandt's math child and that ERD is a
spoke end "fully" inserted into the nipple, all threads used, no
allowance for error or wear and so if your wheel building skills are
building that type wheel that's your ERD. Why, practically anyone
would build a wheel with an ERD that long? Is there a practical or
strength advantage for limiting building alternatives thru striving
toward math perfection?

The Group 2 or wheel building slob like me needs an ERD or final
result spoke end position ( FRSEP ) falling short of full thread
use. leaving room for error, anomalies in the earth's rotational
speed, gross stupidity, that kinda thing.

Does the discussion answer why MO's deliver the wrong lenghts? I guess
so. Its kinda like the LBS telling you that's how it works when you
know the LBS never rides a bike so how could the LBS know?

Quoted message said:

Gene Daniels said:

"Calculators should give you a length based on the ERD. In other
words, they assume you want the spoke to reach the top of the
nipples.
If you want them a bit shorter (matter of personal opinion) then
subtract 1mm from the ERD before you put it into the calculator.  "
Andrew Muzi also suggests the program his shop's using has an ERD
just touching the inside rim surface.
yes.  I agree.  I am confused? maybe.  My problem is with double
wall rims: Sun Rim's Cr-18 and Sun Rim's Rhino.  Mail Odor and LBS
software did not come up with the correct lengths.
The LBS was selling spokes so foolery is not on there.  When I used
the LBS computer, recently deceased, 1 out of 6 tries coughed up the
correct lengths.  The owner didn't extract any right lengths.
Computer dummy hasn't learned to write paths and goes on a mental
trial and error list so we don't know how.
But what kept happening was spoke ends were too long, in the best
length's threaded down just as the nipple seated loosely into
eyelet.  From the software directions, maybe misread, it appeared to
me that was the ERD, where the spoke threaded fully and at that same
cosmic instant reached full Jobst Brandt Group One Wheel perfection
seating down immovably into the eyelet.  Ahhhhhh...
But that's wrong.  The ERD is from axle center to inside rim
surface?
AS SHELDON BROWN'S GLOSSARY:
E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter.  This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes.  The E.R.D.  is needed for
calculating the correct spoke length.

That's one interpretation but since the term arose first in "the
Bicycle Wheel, as did the geometric equations that are commonly used
today, I think this is not correct because that diameter is used to
calculate the diagonals from sums of squares to give the length to the
outer end of spokes.  That point being a nipple head farther out.

The proper length should reach the end of the nipple when tight, not
the bed of the rim, which is as much as 3mm short of that.  That is
why it is called an "effective rim diameter", because it is not
theinner outer or other real diameters.

Quoted message said:

That said.  Jim Beam wants to know why not measure.  Well, because the
Mail Odor Warehouse(s) say " NO PROBLEM! WE HAVE A SPOKE CALCULATOR."
then I have the parts and do a pre-build lacing on the tubahfour (red
oak).  The question was: WHERE DOES THE EXPERIENCED WHEELBUILDER END
HIS SPOKES? touching the rim, 1mm from the rim ...
and the answers are:
touching the rim
1mm from the rim
or maybe 2mm from the rim if the spokes in the pretrial are
untightened
BUT keep in mind other forces may lenghten the spoke 1-2mm so
excercise caution.
and you can read, spoke calcs aren't producing for me.
I don't need to do this again unless 650B goes into monopoly.
eyyyahhhhh.
wouldn't it be cool.  ahh the spokes the hub the rim.  let's see
string this together.  true it up.  ahhh nice wheel.
forgetaboutit.  ^%#!!QWAS9)*!!xx

Eh?  So waht was the point other than spreading incorrect information.

Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Calling the base of the nipples' screwdiver slots an "effective" final
spoke end position supports a non-functioning reality.
Am I distorting what is meant by the final spoke end position?

jim beam said:

Chalo said:

J Taylor said:

Values for steel are (from memory) about 8 millionths of an
inch per inch per degree; so a 100 degree change in an 11 inch spoke would
be on the order of a hundredth of an inch.

Quoted message said:

That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar. In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

and thus mavic's aluminum spoke usage is vindicated...

Pressed to choose, I think I'd be better off with stainless steel rims
than with aluminum spokes.

Chalo

On 2008-02-02, datakoll <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

Does the discussion answer why MO's deliver the wrong lenghts? I guess
so. Its kinda like the LBS telling you that's how it works when you
know the LBS never rides a bike so how could the LBS know?

The MO ones you got were miles out so they were probably working with
the wrong numbers to start with, or thought you wanted 4x.

I bought my last set of spokes MO. You just typed the length you wanted
into a box on the website having worked it out yourself.

For Shimano and Campag hubs you can get the dimensions you need for the
calculators from their websites.

Shimano are quite annoying because they have a million different
variants of everything-- Deore, Deore LX, Deore XT, etc., etc. They're
probably mostly the same size anyway, but you have to look at the small
print. Mine's full name turned out to be "Deore XT M760".

Mavic also provided the ERD on their website.

Down here in Group 3 or 4, I'm just happy if the spokes I get are close
enough to the right length I can actually put the wheel together, but
you're probably right ERD minus a couple of mm is a good idea.

On 2008-02-02, datakoll <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

But what kept happening was spoke ends were too long, in the best
length's threaded down just as the nipple seated loosely into eyelet.
From the software directions, maybe misread, it appeared to me that
was the ERD, where the spoke threaded fully and at that same cosmic
instant reached full Jobst Brandt Group One Wheel perfection seating
down immovabbley into the eyelet. Ahhhhhh...

But that's wrong. The ERD is from axle center to inside rim surface?

AS SHELDON BROWN'S GLOSSARY:
E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes.

That's what I thought it was too. But Brandt says it's that plus twice
the nipple head depth, and he should know.

But what are manufacturers actually quoting? Sometimes you get some
apparent discrepancy between the data in the calculators/spreadsheets
and the official manufacturer info.

Take the "Mavic XM317 Disc" for example. Mavic say "Spoke support
diameter: 536mm".

But spocalc.xls, the spreadsheet many people use, gives 538.5 for the
ERD for this rim. A few lines further up, next to the "X317 Disc", there
is the comment "ERD is Mavic's Nipple Seat Dia plus 3mm for nipples".
That explains it (although why the 0.5mm discrepancy? Perhaps they
measured the XM317 Disc rather than took the quoted value and added 3mm).

I wouldn't be surprised though if some manufacturers/vendors are quoting
a figure they're calling ERD when actually it's spoke support diameter.
Such details easily get confused.

Some spoke calculators (DT's for example http://www.dtswiss.com)
actually ask you for the nipple length. Who cares how long the nipple
is? What difference does that make, unless they're asking about the
thickness of the head and treating what they call "ERD" (which they also
ask for) as spoke support diameter and assuming that you want the spokes
to come all the way to the top of the nipples.

If ERD includes nipple head thickness *2, then what kind of nipple is
that? Add 3mm? If your nipples are fatter, should you subtract 3 and
then add the real thickness of the nipples you have?

I just used Mavic's spoke support diameters directly, I didn't add
anything for nipples, and the spokes came out fine. But this whole issue
is quite confusing.

I think spoke support diameter is a better metric to use and everyone
should just quote that. It's clearer what it means.

A Muzi said:

datakoll said:

BEN C.-

"Calculators should give you a length based on the ERD. In other
words,
they assume you want the spoke to reach the top of the nipples.

If you want them a bit shorter (matter of personal opinion) then
subtract 1mm from the ERD before you put it into the calculator. " -
BEN C.

Andrew Muzi also suggests the program his shop's using has an ERD just
touching the inside rim surface.

yes. I agree. I am confused? maybe.
My problem is with double wall rims: Sun Rim's Cr-18 and Sun Rim's
Rhino. Mail Odor and LBS software did not come up with the correct
lenghts.
The LBS was selling spokes so foolery is not on there.
When I used the LBS computer, recently deceased, 1 out of 6 tries
coughed up the correct lengths. The owner didn't extract any right
lengths. Computer dummy hasn't learned to write paths and goes on a
menatl trial and error list so we don't know how.

But what kept happening was spoke ends were too long, in the best
length's threaded down just as the nipple seated loosely into eyelet.
From the software directions, maybe misread, it appeared to me that
was the ERD, where the spoke threaded fully and at that same cosmic
instant reached full Jobst Brandt Group One Wheel perfection seating
down immovabbley into the eyelet. Ahhhhhh...

But that's wrong. The ERD is from axle center to inside rim surface?

AS SHELDON BROWN'S GLOSSARY:
E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes. The E.R.D. is needed for calculating
the correct spoke length.

That said. Jim Beam wants to know why not measure. Well, because the
Mail Odor Wharehouse(s) say
NO PROBLEM! WE HAVE A SPOKE CALCULATOR.

then I have the parts and do a pre-build lacing on the tubahfour (red
oak). The question was: WHERE DOES THE EXPERIENCED WHEELBUILDER END
HIS SPOKES? touching the rim, 1mm from the rim ...
and the answers are:
touching the rim
1mm from the rim
or maybe 2mm from the rim if the spokes in the pretrial are
untightened
BUT keep in mind other forces may lenghten the spoke 1-2mm so
excercise caution.
and you can read, spoke calcs aren't producing for me. I don't need to
do this again unless 650B goes into monopoly.
eyyyahhhhh.
wouldn't it be cool. ahh the spokes the hub the rim. let's see string
this together. true it up. ahhh nice wheel.
forgetaboutit. ^%#!!QWAS9)*!!xx

In other correspondence with Gene today, I snapped a photo of a wheel
our #1 wheelbuilder finished a couple hours ago. Although the nipple
brand we currently prefer can thread all the way through, not all brands
can. Some nipple threads bind terribly as the spoke extends into the
slot. We shoot for a length just at the inside edge of the rim or at the
start of the slot as shown here:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPOKDEPT.JPG

absolutely perfect!

Quoted message said:

If you work with any given spoke calculation software regularly, you can
tweak your results as finely as you like, down to that 1mm difference
between bottom of slot and top of slot.

datakoll said:

Ok we can flag this down. Beam is right. Forget the calc's database
because the calc software is about to choose an ERD for you and right
off the results aren't headed your way.

The spoke calc is probbably Brandt's math child

did he invent geometry then???

Quoted message said:

and that ERD is a
spoke end "fully" inserted into the nipple, all threads used, no
allowance for error or wear

what you're calling "wear" is almost certainly the plastic distortion of
the hub hole as the spoke beds in under tension.

Quoted message said:

and so if your wheel building skills are
building that type wheel that's your ERD. Why, practically anyone
would build a wheel with an ERD that long? Is there a practical or
strength advantage for limiting building alternatives thru striving
toward math perfection?

some of this is tradition, but the remainder is practical. sufficient
length of spoke thread means a wheel that is much easier to lace - too
short is a real pain, even though it can take the load. too much thread
[too long spoke] means the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks out
to a point where it could puncture the tube [depending on rim]. the
practical solution therefore is a spoke ending at or about the point
where the spoke nipple ends. and that's really all there is to it.

Quoted message said:

The Group 2 or wheel building slob like me needs an ERD or final
result spoke end position ( FRSEP ) falling short of full thread
use. leaving room for error, anomalies in the earth's rotational
speed, gross stupidity, that kinda thing.

that's really not true. correct use of a spoke calculator gives you
exact results - a margin for anticipated error is not necessary.

Quoted message said:

Does the discussion answer why MO's deliver the wrong lenghts?

in my experience, they deliver exactly what's ordered. if the order is
not right, well, there will be consequences for which the mo has zero
responsibility.

Quoted message said:

I guess
so. Its kinda like the LBS telling you that's how it works when you
know the LBS never rides a bike so how could the LBS know?

a flight engineer knows exactly how a plane works, yet he never uses a
wrench.

absolutely insane!

Beam writes!

"too much thread
[too long spoke] means the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks
out
to a point where it could puncture the tube [depending on rim]. the
practical solution therefore is a spoke ending at or about the point
where the spoke nipple ends. and that's really all there is to it.

if the length is specified at Andrew Muzi's point as an ERD located
spoke length
then the spoke is practically too long
caws when it is tightened

"the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks out
to a point where it could puncture the tube"

I give up on it.

datakoll said:

absolutely insane!

Beam writes!

"too much thread
[too long spoke] means the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks
out
to a point where it could puncture the tube [depending on rim]. the
practical solution therefore is a spoke ending at or about the point
where the spoke nipple ends. and that's really all there is to it.

if the length is specified at Andrew Muzi's point as an ERD located
spoke length
then the spoke is practically too long
caws when it is tightened

"the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks out
to a point where it could puncture the tube"

no, this is /after/ it's tightened. before tightening, correct length
spokes are nowhere near the ends of the spoke nipples.

Quoted message said:

I give up on it.

datakoll said:

absolutely insane!
Beam writes!
"too much thread
[too long spoke] means the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks
out
to a point where it could puncture the tube [depending on rim]. the
practical solution therefore is a spoke ending at or about the point
where the spoke nipple ends. and that's really all there is to it.
if the length is specified at Andrew Muzi's point as an ERD located
spoke length
then the spoke is practically too long
caws when it is tightened
"the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks out
to a point where it could puncture the tube"
I give up on it.

The wheel shown is at 115kg and as tight as it will ever be.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPOKDEPT.JPG
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

jim beam said:

datakoll said:

absolutely insane!

Quoted message said:

Beam writes!

Quoted message said:

"too much thread
[too long spoke] means the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks
out
to a point where it could puncture the tube [depending on rim].  the
practical solution therefore is a spoke ending at or about the point
where the spoke nipple ends.  and that's really all there is to it.

Quoted message said:

if the length is specified at Andrew Muzi's point as an ERD located
spoke length
then the spoke is practically too long
caws when it is tightened

Quoted message said:

"the spoke nipple binds and the spoke sticks out
to a point where it could puncture the tube"

no, this is /after/ it's tightened.  before tightening, correct length
spokes are nowhere near the ends of the spoke nipples.

Quoted message said:

I give up on it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"no, this is /after/ it's tightened. before tightening, correct
length
spokes are nowhere near the ends of the spoke nipples. "

YES! but the tape measure from hub hole to inside rim surface plus
distance to the outside eyelet surface is the path of SPOKE LENGTH
measurement. off course the discussion is spoke length in nipple after
tightening to road torques. An ERD is not the final chosen length. I'd
say Andy Muzi's finish spoke length is a nice piece of work but to far
in for practical long distnace cycling. Around the block ok but not
over the road and over to Santa Fe.