spoke length?

datakoll said:

2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole

eh? you need the hub dimensions, then the rim dimensions, the spoke
count, then the spoke crossing pattern. the hub spoke circle diameter
should be to the center of the spoke hole. calculate from there.
calculation options include doing the math yourself, letting damon
rinard do it for you, or letting someone like d.t. do it for you.

Quoted message said:

to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

use the published manufacturer erd.

Quoted message said:

Using 6mm nipples, the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

i prefer to the bottom of the spoke nipple screwdriver slot.

Quoted message said:

What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

for 2.0mm spokes, stretch is negligible. the rest comes out in the wash
when you use the rinard solution. but it's garbage in, garbage out.
you need to make sure your input data is precise and correct.

jim beam said:

datakoll said:

2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

Quoted message said:

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

Quoted message said:

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole

eh?  you need the hub dimensions, then the rim dimensions, the spoke
count, then the spoke crossing pattern.  the hub spoke circle diameter
should be to the center of the spoke hole.  calculate from there.
calculation options include doing the math yourself, letting damon
rinard do it for you, or letting someone like d.t. do it for you.

Quoted message said:

to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

use the published manufacturer erd.

Quoted message said:

Using 6mm nipples,  the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

i prefer to the bottom of the spoke nipple screwdriver slot.

Quoted message said:

What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

for 2.0mm spokes, stretch is negligible.  the rest comes out in the wash
when you use the rinard solution.  but it's garbage in, garbage out.
you need to make sure your input data is precise and correct.

no, real life setup on the dishing beam is more accurate and reliable.
The spokes are here, the wheel is real, why use math-or why use
incorrect inputs into the equation.

spoke math, in the current problem of too long mail order spokes,
seems to give a math answer. The math answer may be correct but itsa
not gonna build the wheel. The math Mall Oder spokes tighten down as
the nipples seat onto the eyelets outside dim-ension.

Great math and off to Puget Sound in the Spruce Goose.

Prior attempts at MalOder spokes were fumbled by clac software. For an
as yet unexplained reason, clac software insists on single wall rim
diameters when the operator is typing double wall rim dimenesion into
the computer?

you prefer what to the bottom of the spoke slot? the end of the spoke
when fully torqued down? Rinard is giving you that dimension? I don't
believe that ans it sounds like something JB would start a parade on.
Rocket Science spoke lengths. Sure, when you find a rocket scientist
is a bike warehouse cutting Maul Odor spokes or a rocket science spoke
measurement device. A 303mm in a batch of 36 will vary 1.5 either way.
Then what? And don't say filum down.

No way! no room for error, dents, bashes, or hole wear.

and I don't know where Shimano hid standard dimensions.

If you use the math, it's possible the math isn't giving you real life
dimensions, but how would you know that? Rinard et al doesn't let on
to it do they?

My standard from scratch method became buy 8 spokes from an eyeball/
tape measure with moderate experience and set up the wheel on dishing
beam after the odor came in backwards, again.

also, 5mm of thread mate works ok. No complaints. So why go for Rocket
Science and a full thread engagment? when the potential for running
out of room is at hand.

More JB, torque the rim until you break it then back of a little.
No point to it.

datakoll said:

jim beam said:

datakoll said:

2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.
The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.
So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole

eh? �you need the hub dimensions, then the rim dimensions, the spoke
count, then the spoke crossing pattern. �the hub spoke circle diameter
should be to the center of the spoke hole. �calculate from there.
calculation options include doing the math yourself, letting damon
rinard do it for you, or letting someone like d.t. do it for you.

Quoted message said:

to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

use the published manufacturer erd.

Quoted message said:

Using 6mm nipples, �the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

i prefer to the bottom of the spoke nipple screwdriver slot.

Quoted message said:

What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

for 2.0mm spokes, stretch is negligible. �the rest comes out in the wash
when you use the rinard solution. �but it's garbage in, garbage out.
you need to make sure your input data is precise and correct.

no, real life setup on the dishing beam is more accurate and reliable.

but you've just proven that not to be true!

Quoted message said:

The spokes are here, the wheel is real, why use math-or why use
incorrect inputs into the equation.

because it gives you the correct result first time, every time. there
is a reason the math exists. see above!

Quoted message said:

spoke math, in the current problem of too long mail order spokes,
seems to give a math answer. The math answer may be correct but itsa
not gonna build the wheel. <snip>

then the math is not being used correctly. garbage in, garbage out.

datakoll said:

2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

Using 6mm nipples, the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

I think the math those of us who do the math do is based on making the
spoke exactly the ERD length.

The ERD is I think the distance to where the nipple sits in the rim.

So based on that you don't want 1mm short or 2mm short but 0mm short.

But a mm or two doesn't matter. I usually find the spokes come quite
far up the nipples such that you can't do final tightening with a
screwdriver from the top because the end of the spoke is in the way.

But the LBS I bought spokes from only stocked even numbers of mm, and
math predicted an odd number, so I got them officially 1mm too long to
start with.

Are nipples threaded all the way to the bottom anyway? You don't want
the spokes too short.

Quoted message said:

What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

Stretch and bend should be almost nothing. Hub hole wear, perhaps that
could mean 1mm less in an extreme case? No need to worry about it. 1mm
either way is no problem.

jim beam said:

...then the math is not being used correctly. garbage in, garbage out.

I'll happily trust the math itself, but sometimes it can be a real PITA to track down the real dimensions, particularly when there are conficting numbers available. A hub is no big deal to measure, but a rim is more awkward.
If you have the stuff at hand I suppose it's reasonably doable, but if you want to place an order for both hub, rim and spokes simultaneously it can be a real nuisance.

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

dabac said:

jim beam said:

...then the math is not being used correctly. garbage in, garbage out.

I'll happily trust the math itself, but sometimes it can be a real PITA
to track down the real dimensions, particularly when there are
conficting numbers available. A hub is no big deal to measure, but a rim
is more awkward.
If you have the stuff at hand I suppose it's reasonably doable, but if
you want to place an order for both hub, rim and spokes simultaneously
it can be a real nuisance.

sure. but you can't use the datakoll method without having the stuff at
hand either!

[measuring rim erd is easy enough without special tools. use two
spokes, two spoke nipples, and a tape measure. measure the spoke nipple
dimensions to where you want, then thread them onto the spokes head
down, i.e. opposite to the way you normally do. then have an assistant
hold these two into opposite holes in the rim - so the spoke nipples are
situated normally like they would be in a laced wheel, only the spokes
aren't in the way - while you measure the distance between them. add to
that measurement, a double quantity of the spoke nipple measurement you
made earlier, and you have the number you need for calculation.]

datakoll said:

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

dude, you're by far the wittiest guy on this group. but you're also the
hardest to help when you don't want to listen.

in this case, there is a real, simple, technical solution to the
question you originally asked. take the prescribed measurements, crank
the handle on the calculator, and the numbers you need drop out of the
bottom. and unless your measurements are wrong, the answers you get
from this method are guaranteed right.

jim beam said:

datakoll said:

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

dude, you're by far the wittiest guy on this group. but you're also the
hardest to help when you don't want to listen.

in this case, there is a real, simple, technical solution to the
question you originally asked. take the prescribed measurements, crank
the handle on the calculator, and the numbers you need drop out of the
bottom. and unless your measurements are wrong, the answers you get
from this method are guaranteed right.

and if you post the input data, i'll post the output data.

datakoll said:

datakoll said:

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes. The E.R.D. is needed for calculating
the correct spoke length.
See also the Spocalc Spoke Length Calculator on this
site.                -sheldon brown's bicycle dictionary

my experience, with other people's calculations sent MO, is a SPOKE
END running to the nipple's seat or I assume correct if not-the
outside eyelet, has the nipple run out threading to tighten further.
Wha happens, and I did this once, is the wheel is set to go annnnnnd
final torque levels are rrrrreachable, if reachable, only thru
twisting nipples past final designed threading.

There are drawings designed to eliminate this problem at the spoke
clac setup point. Apparently the drawings are unclear at the MO.
That's kinda what I'm asking: where is THAT point for the spoke end?

dabac writes, 'a pain if the parts aren't on hand.' That's why the MO
should run a competent spoke calc database. The 700c Sun Rhinos and
Deore hubs ordered here aren't 54 303mm and 18 301 mm, the parts not
Pre-war French Retro, the process not obscure.

What happens is the parts are on hand but the spokes are too long. The
spokes are in, the hub centered: so where do I measure to or deduct
froj to get a 'perfetc' length to UPS and recut?

In one MO shipment (names and profanity withheld because its Thursday)
the [censored] at the quaint little nayborhood shop sent single wall
spokes for a double wall 700 rim. REASON? I didn't have a 700 rim caws
the manufacturer didn't make the specified  rim. Typical of the mental
challenged. Therefore, the 8 spoke-dishing beam method.

to clarify the preceeding(?) if the spokes are tightened down now at
the dishing beam, the bends stretch over the hub hole, measuring
becomes difficult at the recutting machine. That's why a guesstimate
based on experience not math theorizing on what's happening in Parsec
2.

datakoll said:

datakoll said:

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes. The E.R.D. is needed for calculating
the correct spoke length.
See also the Spocalc Spoke Length Calculator on this
site.                -sheldon brown's bicycle dictionary

my experience, with other people's calculations sent MO, is a SPOKE
END running to the nipple's seat or I assume correct if not-the
outside eyelet, has the nipple run out threading to tighten further.
Wha happens, and I did this once, is the wheel is set to go annnnnnd
final torque levels are rrrrreachable, if reachable, only thru
twisting nipples past final designed threading.

There are drawings designed to eliminate this problem at the spoke
clac setup point. Apparently the drawings are unclear at the MO.
That's kinda what I'm asking: where is THAT point for the spoke end?

dabac writes, 'a pain if the parts aren't on hand.' That's why the MO
should run a competent spoke calc database. The 700c Sun Rhinos and
Deore hubs ordered here aren't 54 303mm and 18 301 mm, the parts not
Pre-war French Retro, the process not obscure.

What happens is the parts are on hand but the spokes are too long. The
spokes are in, the hub centered: so where do I measure to or deduct
froj to get a 'perfetc' length to UPS and recut?

In one MO shipment (names and profanity withheld because its Thursday)
the [censored] at the quaint little nayborhood shop sent single wall
spokes for a double wall 700 rim. REASON? I didn't have a 700 rim caws
the manufacturer didn't make the specified  rim. Typical of the mental
challenged. Therefore, the 8 spoke-dishing beam method.

What is the 8 spoke-dishing beam method?

Throw your rim and hub dimensions in to a decent spoke length
calculator (there are many on the internet), and get the right length
and order some of those spokes. If you question one calculator, throw
the numbers in to three or four others and see what you come up with.
You have very common components, and the dimensions (ERD, flange
height, etc.) are also available on the internet in many places.

Unless you have a Phil spoke cutting/threading tool, trimming a
wheel's worth of spokes (or half a wheel) does not make sense -- at
least to me. With that said, I am sure that ten people will jump out
of the woodwork and say that they do it on a daily basis with great
success and without munging the threads. YMMV. I have built wheels
with spokes that were slightly too long because I have 30 years of
spokes around the house and sometimes just use what I have. If the
spokes project out of the nipple by a mm or so after final tension, I
grind them off with a Dremel tool or a file -- unless it is a rim with
a socket, and the spoke ends are below the socket, then I do nothing.
If you have more projection than that, then the nipples are bottoming
out on the threads; the wheel is not getting up to maximum tension,
and it is time to start over with the right length spokes. Another
problem with two long spokes is that, even if trimmed, they may bottom
out later if you have to tighten the wheel to account for a dent or
other insult to the rim. You should just get the right length spoke
to start with. -- Jay Beattie.

Ben C? said:

Quoted message said:

2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Using 6mm nipples, the spokes should be cut to the measurement to
the eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet?

Quoted message said:

I think the math those of us who do the math do is based on making
the spoke exactly the ERD length.

Quoted message said:

The ERD is I think the distance to where the nipple sits in the rim.

The ERD is the diameter to which the threaded ends of spokes are to
reach, and that is the top of spoke nipples inserted in the rim. This
can be assessed by measuring the outside rim diameter and subtracting
twice the distance measured down to the spoke nipple head from this
outer diameter... meaning Effective Rim Diameter for spoking.

Quoted message said:

So based on that you don't want 1mm short or 2mm short but 0mm short.

Quoted message said:

But a mm or two doesn't matter. I usually find the spokes come quite
far up the nipples such that you can't do final tightening with a
screwdriver from the top because the end of the spoke is in the way.

I haven't found a method of using a screw driver for final tightening,
or truing for that matter. A spoke nipple driver is handy to get
started with all spoke equally engaged.

Quoted message said:

But the LBS I bought spokes from only stocked even numbers of mm,
and math predicted an odd number, so I got them officially 1mm too
long to start with.

Quoted message said:

Are nipples threaded all the way to the bottom anyway? You don't
want the spokes too short.

The small end of spoke nipples usually have about 3mm smooth bore
before threads begin.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is common practice here for a measurement that will account
for spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

Quoted message said:

Stretch and bend should be almost nothing. Hub hole wear, perhaps
that could mean 1mm less in an extreme case? No need to worry about
it. 1mm either way is no problem.

Amen.

Jobst Brandt

datakoll said:

2.0 Spokes for my MO Monodog 29er's wheels are MO too long, again.

The wheel is laced on a dishing beam, hub centered, nipples seated but
not tightened.

So I have the average measurements from edge of spoke hub hole to
inside rim at the rim eyelet.

Using 6mm nipples, the spokes should be cut to the measurement to the
eyelet, 1mm short of the eyelet or 2 mm short of the eyelet ?

What is common practice here for a measurement that will account for
spoke stretch, taking up spoke bend, and hub hole wear?

I assume you either used a spoke chart or software? Someone either
misread the chart or used an erroneous input with software.

However, it isn't all that terrible. Now that you have a built or mostly
built wheel, it should be straightforward to interpolate and correct. If
your 292 are 6mm too long, ask for 276, etc. Shoot for the inside edge
of the rim or to the nipple slot ( a difference of ~1mm)

What are '6mm nipples'? Short are usually 12mm, the older long ones were
mostly 16mm (wood rims 20mm) but the threaded portion varies little if
at all:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/NIPPLES.JPG

Spokes do not stretch in any practical or measurable sense.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:17:53 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Spokes do not stretch in any practical or measurable sense.

Dear Andrew,

Spoke stretch is negligible, but many calculators actually include
it--just google for "spoke stretch" and calculator:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22spoke+stretch%22+calculator&hl=en&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images

An example of a truly excessive calculator that lets you put in the
desired tension, modulus of elasticity, thickness, and so on:

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spokes/spoke_length_calculator.html

Results are in tenths of a millimeter. It really ought to include a
field for temperature, since the spokes must shrink a little in cold
weather.

***

Near the bottom of this calculator's page, the author mentions using
Jobst's calculation for spoke stretch:
http://www.appliedthought.com/danny/Spoke/SpokeCalculator.html

***

Jobst's calculation for "Spoke Elongation" was corrected down from
1.24 mm in the first and second edition (an oops involving 180 kg
tension) to this smaller 1000 newton figure in the 3rd edition:

3. SPOKE ELONGATION FROM TENSIONING
dL= P / K Elongation
K = 1.34e6 N/mm Spoke elasticity (from Eq. 2)
P = 1000N Tension in spoke
dL= 1000/1.34e6 = 746e-6 m = 0.75 mm

***

Again, I agree that ~0.75 mm of spoke stretch is not worth worrying
about, particularly when many calculators include it anyway.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

datakoll said:

datakoll said:

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes. The E.R.D. is needed for calculating
the correct spoke length.
See also the Spocalc Spoke Length Calculator on this
site. -sheldon brown's bicycle dictionary

my experience, with other people's calculations sent MO, is a SPOKE
END running to the nipple's seat or I assume correct if not-the
outside eyelet, has the nipple run out threading to tighten further.
Wha happens, and I did this once, is the wheel is set to go annnnnnd
final torque levels are rrrrreachable, if reachable, only thru
twisting nipples past final designed threading.

There are drawings designed to eliminate this problem at the spoke
clac setup point. Apparently the drawings are unclear at the MO.
That's kinda what I'm asking: where is THAT point for the spoke end?

dabac writes, 'a pain if the parts aren't on hand.' That's why the MO
should run a competent spoke calc database. The 700c Sun Rhinos and
Deore hubs ordered here aren't 54 303mm and 18 301 mm, the parts not
Pre-war French Retro, the process not obscure.

What happens is the parts are on hand but the spokes are too long. The
spokes are in, the hub centered: so where do I measure to or deduct
froj to get a 'perfetc' length to UPS and recut?

In one MO shipment (names and profanity withheld because its Thursday)
the [censored] at the quaint little nayborhood shop sent single wall
spokes for a double wall 700 rim. REASON? I didn't have a 700 rim caws
the manufacturer didn't make the specified rim. Typical of the mental
challenged. Therefore, the 8 spoke-dishing beam method.

Without knowing which Deore rear hub you have, a Deore front 36h 3x on
Rhino is 292mm, not 303mm. You're right, they were not even close.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:17:53 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Spokes do not stretch in any practical or measurable sense.

Dear Andrew,

Spoke stretch is negligible, but many calculators actually include
it--just google for "spoke stretch" and calculator:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22spoke+stretch%22+calculator&hl=en&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images

An example of a truly excessive calculator that lets you put in the
desired tension, modulus of elasticity, thickness, and so on:

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spokes/spoke_length_calculator.html

Results are in tenths of a millimeter. It really ought to include a
field for temperature, since the spokes must shrink a little in cold
weather.

A very little. Values for steel are (from memory) about 8 millionths of an
inch per inch per degree; so a 100 degree change in an 11 inch spoke would
be on the order of a hundredth of an inch.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

datakoll said:

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

Quoted message said:

datakoll said:

E.R.D.
Effective Rim Diameter. This is the rim diameter measured at the
nipple seats in the spoke holes. The E.R.D. is needed for calculating
the correct spoke length.
See also the Spocalc Spoke Length Calculator on this
site. -sheldon brown's bicycle dictionary
my experience, with other people's calculations sent MO, is a SPOKE
END running to the nipple's seat or I assume correct if not-the
outside eyelet, has the nipple run out threading to tighten further.
Wha happens, and I did this once, is the wheel is set to go annnnnnd
final torque levels are rrrrreachable, if reachable, only thru
twisting nipples past final designed threading.
There are drawings designed to eliminate this problem at the spoke
clac setup point. Apparently the drawings are unclear at the MO.
That's kinda what I'm asking: where is THAT point for the spoke end?
dabac writes, 'a pain if the parts aren't on hand.' That's why the MO
should run a competent spoke calc database. The 700c Sun Rhinos and
Deore hubs ordered here aren't 54 303mm and 18 301 mm, the parts not
Pre-war French Retro, the process not obscure.
What happens is the parts are on hand but the spokes are too long. The
spokes are in, the hub centered: so where do I measure to or deduct
froj to get a 'perfetc' length to UPS and recut?
In one MO shipment (names and profanity withheld because its Thursday)
the [censored] at the quaint little nayborhood shop sent single wall
spokes for a double wall 700 rim. REASON? I didn't have a 700 rim caws
the manufacturer didn't make the specified rim. Typical of the mental
challenged. Therefore, the 8 spoke-dishing beam method.

datakoll said:

to clarify the preceeding(?) if the spokes are tightened down now at
the dishing beam, the bends stretch over the hub hole, measuring
becomes difficult at the recutting machine. That's why a guesstimate
based on experience not math theorizing on what's happening in Parsec
2.

Length is normally taken from the inside of the curve to the end.
Machines which hold the spoke on the outside of the curve correct for
that. Brands do vary but only in the under 0.5mm range.

You implied, I think, that these spokes were cut just for you. Although
I ♥ my Phil Wood spoke machine, if we had to cut a set of spokes for
more than one wheel out of fifty, we'd have to raise our spoke price.
It's terribly time consuming and hence economically inefficient. More
likely, someone counted your spokes from cases of pre-cut 301 and 303.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

You implied, I think, that these spokes were cut just for you. Although
I ¢¾ my Phil Wood spoke machine, if we had to cut a set of spokes for
more than one wheel out of fifty, we'd have to raise our spoke price.
It's terribly time consuming and hence economically inefficient. More
likely, someone counted your spokes from cases of pre-cut 301 and 303.

Most of the spokes I use are unusual in length, so I have to mail
order many of them. I use Danscomp.com since I discovered that
despite being a BMX-only supplier, they use full-length Sapim blanks
and cut all spokes to order. Even so, theirs are about the least
expensive top-quality spokes I've found.

I'm guessing that they use something besides a Phil spoke cutter,
because I've never gotten a sticky thread or ringed (rather than
threaded) spoke from them out of the hundreds I have ordered.

Chalo