spoke length?

J Taylor said:

Carl Fogel said:

An example of a truly excessive calculator that lets you put in the
desired tension, modulus of elasticity, thickness, and so on:

Quoted message said:

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spokes/spoke_length_calcul...

Quoted message said:

Results are in tenths of a millimeter. It really ought to include a
field for temperature, since the spokes must shrink a little in cold
weather.

A very little. Values for steel are (from memory) about 8 millionths of an
inch per inch per degree; so a 100 degree change in an 11 inch spoke would
be on the order of a hundredth of an inch.

That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar. In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

Chalo

Chalo said:

J Taylor said:

Carl Fogel wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

An example of a truly excessive calculator that lets you put in the
desired tension, modulus of elasticity, thickness, and so on:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spokes/spoke_length_calcul....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Results are in tenths of a millimeter. It really ought to include a
field for temperature, since the spokes must shrink a little in cold
weather.

Quoted message said:

A very little.  Values for steel are (from memory) about 8 millionths of an
inch per inch per degree; so a 100 degree change in an 11 inch spoke would
be on the order of a hundredth of an inch.

That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar.  In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

My spokes become loose in the cold? There has to be a marketing
opportunity in there somewhere. Rim warmers, maybe. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

On Jan 31, 1:04 pm, Chalo <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar.  In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

My spokes become loose in the cold? There has to be a marketing
opportunity in there somewhere. Rim warmers, maybe. -- Jay Beattie.

Perhaps pads made of a rubber-like material could be positioned to rub
against the rim while riding thus generating heat. The pads could be
operated by levers mounted on the handlebars.

Ben C said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Jan 31, 1:04 pm, Chalo <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar.  In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

Quoted message said:

My spokes become loose in the cold?  There has to be a marketing
opportunity in there somewhere. Rim warmers, maybe. -- Jay Beattie.

Perhaps pads made of a rubber-like material could be positioned to rub
against the rim while riding thus generating heat. The pads could be
operated by levers mounted on the handlebars.

That's awesome! Put them right behind the brake calipers. Quick, get
Carl to do a patent search! -- Jay Beattie.

Ahhhhhh INVAR is from Never-Never land.

Spokes measurement? Never ran the machine. There's a metal Nashbar
ruler taped to the kitchen counter formica. Carelessness in measuring
throws lengths off 1-1.5mm. Used and prevuiously tightened down to
running torques but new spokes and unused new spokes measure
differently: 1mm plus.

"Spokes do not stretch in any practical or measurable sense." Try it.
Remove a new spoke in a newly built wheel and measure against a new
unused spoke. While your measures may not differ, take note the bends
are different and the measures can be different, especially over at
the MO. The spoke doesn't stretch but the bend radii or measuring
point produces a longer measurement. Yes, 16mm nipples not 6mm. That;s
a good point to remember, spokes in stock. Like the lengths I needed
were not in stock so....

The one poster sez stretch is around or up to .75mm.

Then I left the spokes slack. Like Dirksen said, "a mm here and a mm
there and pretty soon you're screwed with the wrong spokes again."
I guess I'll try 1mm short of the rim.

When I first started whining, the MO said "no those are the right
spoke lengths, we rarely make mistakes, you can talk to our expert
wheelbuilder." And I said "&&^^TT$%#22" and "😉(((&R$4442RRR" But the
MO trapped me as the spokes are for:
FOUR CROSS 36 HOLE and 530 Deore/Sun Rhino's (at least I received 36
hole rims and 36 hole hubs this time and guess who did that? You'd
swear they send their work out to the Zoo or Rhode Island)

So the MO sez, "WE ALWAYS BUILD OUR TREKKING WHEELS FOUR CROSS."

The ISO standard measure? Could the Iso standard entered into software
turn double wall specs into single wall measurements?
Or maybe the MO assumes the double wall is the same as a single wall.
That may be but as mentioned previously, software over at the Trek LBS
turns double wall specs into single wall lengths.

NOW, "The ERD is the diameter to which the threaded ends of spokes are
to
reach, and that is the top of spoke nipples inserted in the rim.
This
can be assessed by measuring the outside rim diameter and subtracting
twice the distance measured down to the spoke nipple head from this
outer diameter... meaning Effective Rim Diameter for spoking."

WHY?

Measure the diameter. Practice measuring the diameter. Write that
number down.
Take a spoke and stick it in the eyelet until flush with the outside
eyelet. Magic Tape the shaft where the shaft enters the inside eyelet
surface. Measure that and add to rim diameter.

BUT THAT'S NO GOOD! The real life spoke should be shorter than the
inside eyelet where the nipple seats.
Are spoke calcs taking this into account or am I asking spoke cals to
take my personal opinion into account where a spoke threading should
not bottom out in practical use when building wheels?

JB,

"subtracting
twice the distance measured down to the spoke nipple head"

how does does TWICE THE DISTANCE prove out? Is there an ISO standard
at work here?
Twice the distance could be somewhere in the vicinity of the length
I'm looking for minus slack spokes
BUT all rims are different are they not? Or is there a standard
operating there control rim design? No way on that right?
and lesser, what part of the spoke head-the inner seat on the outer
eyelet, right?

datakoll

Chalo said:

J Taylor said:

Carl Fogel said:

An example of a truly excessive calculator that lets you put in the
desired tension, modulus of elasticity, thickness, and so on:

Quoted message said:

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spokes/spoke_length_calcul...

Quoted message said:

Results are in tenths of a millimeter. It really ought to include a
field for temperature, since the spokes must shrink a little in cold
weather.

A very little. Values for steel are (from memory) about 8 millionths of an
inch per inch per degree; so a 100 degree change in an 11 inch spoke would
be on the order of a hundredth of an inch.

That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar. In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

Chalo

Dar Chalo,

Even worse, at least one calculator nibbles its fingernails and
worries about how much the spoke tension caused the aluminum rim to
contract.

The screen shot here reveals that the sample rim suffers 0.911 mm of
rim shrinkage:

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spokes/spoke_length_calculator.html

I don't know whether the software calculates how much the rim bulges
inward at the spoke hole, but it certainly ought to!

We have the tools to calculate spoke lengths to 0.1 mm, so it's a
mystery why spokes don't come in 0.5 mm lengths. After all, half a
millimeter is almost exactly one turn of a 52 tpi spoke nipple.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Fogel the English major back from running the front range.
Another ticket at 125 in a 15 zone.

Does the english spoke calc come with a Fogel endorsement or is it a
thumbs down?
or a matter of curiosity? Once downloaded, does it gum up the works?

After all 1/2 mm is amost extacly 1/2 nipple turn. A GREAT PIECE OF
INFORMATION!
What is this almost exactly? Joyce?

datakoll said:

Fogel the English major back from running the front range.
Another ticket at 125 in a 15 zone.

Does the english spoke calc come with a Fogel endorsement or is it a
thumbs down?
or a matter of curiosity? Once downloaded, does it gum up the works?

After all 1/2 mm is amost extacly 1/2 nipple turn. A GREAT PIECE OF
INFORMATION!
What is this almost exactly? Joyce?

Dear Gene,

Er, half right.

Divide 25.4 millimeters per inch by 52 threads per inch.

You should get almost exactly 0.5 mm per thread, or half a millimeter
for each full turn of the spoke nipple.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

jim beam said:

datakoll said:

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

dude, you're by far the wittiest guy on this group....

"jim beam" is correct.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Chalo Colina said:

...
That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar. In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

So for tight tires, put the wheel in the freezer and the tire in the
oven at low heat before mounting.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Ben C said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Jan 31, 1:04 pm, Chalo <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's not particularly relevant unless the rim is made of Invar. In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

My spokes become loose in the cold? There has to be a marketing
opportunity in there somewhere. Rim warmers, maybe. -- Jay Beattie.

Perhaps pads made of a rubber-like material could be positioned to rub
against the rim while riding thus generating heat. The pads could be
operated by levers mounted on the handlebars.

I believe that Jobst Brandt uses this method to remove moisture from
inside his rims.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

datakoll said:

Fogel the English major back from running the front range.
Another ticket at 125 in a 15 zone.

Does the english spoke calc come with a Fogel endorsement or is it a
thumbs down?
or a matter of curiosity? Once downloaded, does it gum up the works?

After all 1/2 mm is amost extacly 1/2 nipple turn. A GREAT PIECE OF
INFORMATION!
What is this almost exactly? Joyce?

Spokes are 56 tpi. 1/2 turn advances 1/112 inch or 0.226mm
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

datakoll said:

what's proven is:
the theoreticians aren't building wheels
have poor memories
can't answer the question

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

dude, you're by far the wittiest guy on this group....

Tom Sherman said:

"jim beam" is correct.

Me three. Gene's contributions are greatly appreciated.
jb, Tom and I are at one in this(!).
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:21:22 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

datakoll said:

Fogel the English major back from running the front range.
Another ticket at 125 in a 15 zone.

Does the english spoke calc come with a Fogel endorsement or is it a
thumbs down?
or a matter of curiosity? Once downloaded, does it gum up the works?

After all 1/2 mm is amost extacly 1/2 nipple turn. A GREAT PIECE OF
INFORMATION!
What is this almost exactly? Joyce?

Spokes are 56 tpi. 1/2 turn advances 1/112 inch or 0.226mm

Dear Andrew,

Aaargh! That'll teach me to trust my memory!

Luckily, despite my carelesness, it's still almost exactly half a
millimeter per turn of the spoke nipple.

Wrong 52 tpi, my mistake:
(25.4 mm / inch) / (52 threads / inch ) = 0.488 mm / thread

Right 56 tpi, Andrew knows threads per inch:
(25.4 mm / inch) / (56 threads / inch) = 0.4537 mm / thread

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

OK OK

you know if you gather 5 names and ten readers someone will put a tire
in an oven no problem. The nipple turn is useable conceptual
information added to Sheldon Brown's Wheel Building. Thinking of the
wheel in millimeters as you go: in neon red off course.

Carl, is that spoke calc from Machinist Head foolproof software?

The Spoke Pattern Explorer For Wheel Building may answer spoke
questions from the 8 spoke and dishing beam guesstimate approach.

What does the 530 Deore/SiunRhino 2.0 36 4 cross work to on Madison
software?

BTW, was a beautiful spring day fading into a beatiful fall afternoon,
falling leaves. Into Wal and back with 100 pounds and a uh Pilates for
dry eskimo rolling. Naybors beginning to see the deal: called out "now
he's getting 40 mpg from that truck."

datakoll said:

OK OK

you know if you gather 5 names and ten readers someone will put a tire
in an oven no problem. The nipple turn is useable conceptual
information added to Sheldon Brown's Wheel Building. Thinking of the
wheel in millimeters as you go: in neon red off course.

Carl, is that spoke calc from Machinist Head foolproof software?

yes, damon's numbers are correct - i checked. and it's just a
spreadsheet. if you don't have excel, "open office" opened it and ran
it ok last time i looked.

Quoted message said:

The Spoke Pattern Explorer For Wheel Building may answer spoke
questions from the 8 spoke and dishing beam guesstimate approach.

What does the 530 Deore/SiunRhino 2.0 36 4 cross work to on Madison
software?

BTW, was a beautiful spring day fading into a beatiful fall afternoon,
falling leaves. Into Wal and back with 100 pounds and a uh Pilates for
dry eskimo rolling. Naybors beginning to see the deal: called out "now
he's getting 40 mpg from that truck."

datakoll said:

JB,

"subtracting
twice the distance measured down to the spoke nipple head"

how does does TWICE THE DISTANCE prove out? Is there an ISO standard
at work here?

no. rim beds are not part of the iso measurements, hence individual
erd's for individual rims.

Quoted message said:

Twice the distance could be somewhere in the vicinity of the length
I'm looking for minus slack spokes
BUT all rims are different are they not? Or is there a standard
operating there control rim design? No way on that right?
and lesser, what part of the spoke head-the inner seat on the outer
eyelet, right?

dude, just look up the dimensions and calculate! or measure the bits
cited and calculate! if you don't, you're in the expensive and time
consuming world of pointless iteration. it's not like people won't do
this stuff for you if you post the right data.

In article <[email hidden]>,

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

datakoll wrote:
> what's proven is:
> the theoreticians aren't building wheels
> have poor memories
> can't answer the question

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

dude, you're by far the wittiest guy on this group....

Tom Sherman said:

"jim beam" is correct.

Me three. Gene's contributions are greatly appreciated.
jb, Tom and I are at one in this(!).

That can't be right.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Carl Fogel said:

Chalo said:

In
cold temperatures, an aluminum rim contracts even more than the spoke,
making the spoke effectively _longer_ for our purposes even as it
becomes measurably shorter.

Even worse, at least one calculator nibbles its fingernails and
worries about how much the spoke tension caused the aluminum rim to
contract.

I should have expected that. Now we're going to have to come up with
an almost infinitely stiff rim material to address such sophisticated
concerns. We can add another potential use for synthetic diamond to
the already lengthy wish list!

Quoted message said:

We have the tools to calculate spoke lengths to 0.1 mm, so it's a
mystery why spokes don't come in 0.5 mm lengths. After all, half a
millimeter is almost exactly one turn of a 52 tpi spoke nipple.

Not that it matters, but I believe they are 56 tpi threads. At least
a #2-56 nut will thread onto a 2.0mm spoke with obvious disparity only
in its diameter.

Chalo