Single Speed Scam!

"Stephen Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mojo Deluxe says:

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If you pay $300 for a SS, you'll end up spending the $500 you saved on the replacement parts that
will fail, just

to

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hang them on a POS frame.

Are you calling my $300 SpecEd gearie a POS?!?

Huh?

;-)

No, not me. Just his?

Penny S said:

With two 40" boxes in the middle of the living room, we just HAD to open everything last night.

By the time you have wrapped boxes that size in the house for 3 days, there are no surprises with
teens in the house... "duh, you've said we should get a new TV" some time..." "you didn't clear
history on the drop down bar in Google {hdtv}...." "nothing else comes in a box like that..." " of
course it's a TV and home theatre, why else would there be two boxes"...

it's a hit of course.

more observations. Radio Shack will let teenagers in their pajamas buy subwoofer cables, on
Christmas Eve with their moms' debit card if you call ahead.

Said teenager did not have it figured out well enought to NOT loan his extended version DVD of the
Fellowship of the rings out, same with Matrix 1. Mr Adventrue won't watch the #2 in either seried,
( which we have) without the first one. We had to settle for Seabicuit last night. (no one but me
wanted to watch Nemo for the umpteenth time)

You'd think manual would improve with time. I'ts only after you read 10 pages of how to program
your set up that you get to the page that tells you it should be preset with a good basic
configuration...

The number of remotes just increased 400% at our house.

I'll take movie suggestions, ones that would really show off the surround sound!!

Merry everything, everyone!

Penny

Is it 5.1 surround? Twister (swirling winds) so far has my vote! Any good music video (which I watch
most) is up there too.

--
- Zilla Cary, NC (Remove XSPAM)

Zilla found this under the tree:

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Is it 5.1 surround? Twister (swirling winds) so far has my vote! Any

good music video (which I watch most) is up there too.

um, , I guess so.. some electronics geek should answer that. 4 speakers and a center, plus a
subwoofer... sounds pretty good to me!!

Penny

Penny S said:

Zilla found this under the tree:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it 5.1 surround? Twister (swirling winds) so far has my vote! Any

good music video (which I watch most) is up there too.

um, , I guess so.. some electronics geek should answer that. 4 speakers and a center, plus a
subwoofer... sounds pretty good to me!!

Penny

Sounds (excuse the pun) like Digital 5.1! It's a whole new experience if you've been watching in
mono, or even stereo, all this time.

--
- Zilla Cary, NC (Remove XSPAM)

Zilla found this under the tree:

Quoted message said:

Penny S said:

Zilla found this under the tree:

Quoted message said:

> Is it 5.1 surround? Twister (swirling winds) so far has my vote! Any
good music video (which I watch most) is up there too.

um, , I guess so.. some electronics geek should answer that. 4 speakers and a center, plus a
subwoofer... sounds pretty good to me!!

Penny

Sounds (excuse the pun) like Digital 5.1! It's a whole new experience if you've been watching in
mono, or even stereo, all this time.

yup, I looked at the box, 5.1/dts/ and Dolby Prologic II. ( not surround sound?) They've got the
lights off, the two towers going and the whole downstairs is shaking when the orcs are running....

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the price of single speed bikes and components is based on a thing called "volume", most are custom
manufactured in a few units rather than in units of thousands.

Yeah, but the single speed units contain less parts! Suppy and demand my tuckus! Its elitist
corporate hokum.

Ksc4444 said:

Yeah, all these manufacturers think they are slick selling these expensive single speed bikes! How
come the price does not drop due to a lack of derailleurs and such? If there are less moving
parts, then does logic not dictate that the bloody price should drop accordingly? Well I ain't
gonna play ball on this one! Although I really, really want a Specialized P bike, I simply refuse
to pay 600 bucks for a one speed bike. That thing should be like 300 bucks tops.

Well, I just went to Specialized's web page. The HardRock SS and the HardRock Comp have the same
aluminum frame and Marzocchi fork. The same Tektro front disc, but the SS has a rear disc also.
Bar, stem, etc all the same. The SS has a rear disc, the gearie has Alivio components. The Gearie
costs $10 more.

I'd have to agree, that seems like a joke- look at how many more parts you get with the gearie.

On the other hand, the SS has better wheels, and Alivio parts are dirt cheap. Production runs will
be smaller on the SS frame compared to the version with a derailleur hanger, so the frame will be
slightly more expensive to manufacture... On closer inspection I would have to say that if the
gearie is worth $510, than the SS is accurately priced at $500.

The big bike brands are all jumping on the SS bandwagon, that's true. However, they do all have the
sense to produce bikes that are actually pretty cheap in the relative scale of Bike-shop bikes (as
opposed to mass-merchant bikes). Look at the KHS, the Redline, Specialized... all at or below $500.

Hell, $500 wouldn't buy the three front tubes of the frame on my SS.

Miles

[email hidden] (Ksc4444) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Yeah, all these manufacturers think they are slick selling these expensive single speed bikes! How
come the price does not drop due to a lack of derailleurs and such? If there are less moving
parts, then does logic not dictate that the bloody price should drop accordingly? Well I ain't
gonna play ball on this one! Although I really, really want a Specialized P bike, I simply refuse
to pay 600 bucks for a one speed bike. That thing should be like 300 bucks tops.

Sounds like some kind of scam to me. Yeah, stick to multiple gears, it's more "cost effective".

JD

Ksc4444 said...

Quoted message said:

Yeah, all these manufacturers think they are slick selling these expensive single speed bikes! How
come the price does not drop due to a lack of derailleurs and such? If there are less moving
parts, then does logic not dictate that the bloody price should drop accordingly? Well I ain't
gonna play ball on this one! Although I really, really want a Specialized P bike, I simply refuse
to pay 600 bucks for a one speed bike. That thing should be like 300 bucks tops.

My Kuwahara BMX listed for something close to $500 in 1980. Not only single speed, but 20" as well.
Where have you been?

(Ksc4444) said:

Yeah, all these manufacturers think they are slick selling these expensive single speed bikes! How
come the price does not drop due to a lack of derailleurs and such? If there are less moving parts,
then does logic not dictate that the bloody price should drop accordingly? Well I ain't gonna play
ball on this one! Although I really, really want a Specialized P bike, I simply refuse to pay 600
bucks for a one speed bike. That thing should be like 300 bucks tops.

Buy a multi-speed, strip the derailleurs and other useless bits, sell derailleurs and other useless
bits on e-bay, ..... viola!

Peace,

Bill ...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them all and on the
trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:46:44 -0800, "Penny S"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[nip good x-mas]

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I'll take movie suggestions, ones that would really show off the surround sound!!

A rather old flick (early 80s) that would be worth watching without sound on HDTV, Brazil.
Absolutely phenomenal!

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Merry everything, everyone!

Penny

Peace, Bill ...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them all and
on the trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...

[email hidden] (Ksc4444) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That thing should be like

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300 bucks tops.

Who's holding a gun to your head, forcing you to buy one?

Nobody; thats why I won't be buying one. I thought I made my intentions of NOT to buy extremely
clear in my original post. For all the smarmy BS, nobody managed to answer my original question.
As a result, I shall repost a portion of the original message below:

Quoted message said:

How come the price does not drop due to a lack of

Quoted message said:

derailleurs and such? If there are less moving parts, then does logic not dictate that the
bloody price should drop accordingly?

Ho ho ho

The price does drop.

Try this:

MSRP for a "P" Frame is 550.00 USD MSRP for a P.3 is 1,300.00 USD MSRP for a P.2 is 770.00 USD MSRP
for a P.1 is 650.00 USD

Seems like 100.00 USD for a single speed kit is fairly reasonable, and a 120.00 USD drop seems
reasonable for for a bike that is sans parts ( HMX-2 front brake, Alivio front der, Deore rear der,
and Truvative Box guide).

Perhaps you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Would it make you feel better if they charged
more for the P.2. That way you could get that big discount you are looking for.

R

Bill Wheeler said:

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:46:44 -0800, "Penny S" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[nip good x-mas]

Quoted message said:

I'll take movie suggestions, ones that would really show off the surround sound!!

A rather old flick (early 80s) that would be worth watching without sound on HDTV, Brazil.
Absolutely phenomenal!

I was thinking of that one too, but with the sound up. Also, another good weird Terry Gilliam flick
is Twelve Monkeys. Koyaanisqatsi might be good. The sound track is by Philip Glass, its sort of
Alternative Classical music. The kids probably won't like it except for the last scene, of the
exploding rocket. Might make an interesting double feature with Winged Migration.

Shawn

[email hidden] (Ksc4444) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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Single brain cell?

Oh, I get it; question the status quo and get called stupid.

No ... you didn't really question the status quo, at least not here. Ripping on Specialized it
relatively common on this group. Take some time and trry to figure out the real reason for the
"single brain cell" quote.

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Most Specialized products are made in China.

Most by what measure? By shear number the majority of production units are "rubber," which
are produced in several different factories, including factories in the E.U., China, Taiwan,
and Malaysia.

The P bikes that you first mentioned, or ranted about, are not produced in China.

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I hate to break this to ya, but those frames are probably made in the same factory that produces
the Wal-Mart specials that everyone sneers at.

Once again, if you are speaking directly to the "P" bikes (that srted your rant) then you are wrong.
The "P" series is not produced in the same factories that produce either NEXT or the lines for
Pacific Cycles.

That said, a lot depends on the model. Have you considered that 1 out of every 20 new bikes sold in
the U.S. is produced by Giant. But, the biggest market seller by volume that Giant produces is
produced for the local market and retails for ~500 Yuan (~24.00 USD). Just because it is produced by
Giant does not make it a "good" bike for the U.S. Market.

People "sneer" at Wal-mart bikes (e.g. Pacific cycles) because they are roughly eqivalent to the 500
Yuan Giant. Where the product is produced is not the issue. The "Wal-mart bikes" tend to be poorly
designed, produced from low quality materials, produced with low or no QA/QC, are poorly spec'd, and
poorly assembled ... it does help to keep the profits up and the costs down ... but it doesn't
produce a very good product.

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Do you think Specialized actually has a big factory over in China? Hell no, they contract that
stuff out to places that handle more than one company.

I doubt that anyone in this group thinks that Specialized has a factory in China. So why are you so
caught up in stating the obvious? Specialized has never been a producer. Specialized started out,
~30 years ago, as an import company and has developed (for good or bad) into an industry leading
marketing and design company.

Quoted message said:

I got your single brain cell right here.

Perhaps you should but it back to work.

If Specialized is marketing the "P" frame for 550.00 USD, why do you feel that paying 650.00 USD for
the complete P.1 is so far out of line? Since it is the frame that makes up the apparent majority of
the cost of the P.1, perhaps you should reconsider your "Single Speed Scam!" claim, and try your
hand at writing up a good rant on the "Specialized Frame Price Scam!".

R

Ksc4444 said:

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Single brain cell?

I got your single brain cell right here.

Yes you do.

Gman

miles todd said:

Hell, $500 wouldn't buy the three front tubes of the frame on my SS.

Miles

When Miles speaks about SS, people listen...

I paid $500 for my 4130 chromoly Astron Pro BMX bike w/ Araya 7x wheels in 1985.

If a $500 bike scares you maybe you should investigate a different sport? May I suggest running, all
there is to buy is shoes, and I haven't seen too many $500 pairs.

I paid about $1100 for my Surly 1x1 SS, and I consider that cheap. For a similarly equipped FS, I'd
expect to pay ~$2k.

The fact that _several_ SS bike mfgs have hit the $500 price point is amazing to me.

Gman

Ksc4444 said:

Quoted message said:

Single brain cell?

Oh, I get it; question the status quo and get called stupid.

Typical a.m-b attitudes. Do a Google search and you'll see it over and over again. They instantly
reject any attempts to differ with the status quo. Just like a bunch of roadies. LOL!

Quoted message said:

Most Specialized products are made in China.

Definitely the lower end models, yes. Our Specialized dealership folded a few years ago, so I don't
know about the higher-end models anymore. Anybody know if they're made in Asia? (I assume they are.)

Quoted message said:

I hate to break this to ya, but those frames are probably made in the same factory that produces
the Wal-Mart specials that everyone sneers at.

You could be right. They might use better tubing and better QC for the Specialized frames; but the
assembly line could easily be the same one that turns out Pacific-made Schwinns and Walgooses.
Anybody know for sure? I wouldn't bet against KSC4444 on that one. Even if it's not the same exact
factory, it could be very similar (in production techniques, equipment, skill levels, etc).

BTW: I'm talking about the low-end Specialized bikes - the ones they sell in large quantities.

Quoted message said:

Do you think Specialized actually has a big factory over in China? Hell no, they contract that
stuff out to places that handle more than one company.

Most bike companies do that. Have a look at the low-end Trek frames and compare them to some of the
better dept. store brands (Diamondback, Mongoose, Schwinn), and see if you can tell any obvious
difference. I think they're coming from the same factory with different decals and paint. Hell, just
about every non-custom frame is made in China or Taiwan, and even some of the much-touted boutique
and custom frames are made in Asia (Habanero, Surly, etc)

With big-name bikes nowadays, it's all about price points, branding and marketing hype. Nobody makes
that more obvious than Specialized. Their factory single speed is priced as it is because the market
will bear that price, not because it's a great value.

Rocketman

Rocketman said:

Ksc4444 said:

Quoted message said:

Single brain cell?

Oh, I get it; question the status quo and get called stupid.

Typical a.m-b attitudes. Do a Google search and you'll see it over and over again. They instantly
reject any attempts to differ with the status quo. Just like a bunch of roadies. LOL!

{snip}

Quoted message said:

Rocketman

Why'd you stop signing your name to stuff, Barry?

Bill "differ with status quo?!? Bwahahahaha" S.

Bill Wheeler said:

A rather old flick (early 80s) that would be worth watching without sound on HDTV, Brazil.
Absolutely phenomenal!

Peace, Bill

I went to see Brazil with a girl I was interested in back in college. She didn't like the movie, but
that's OK. We just celebrated our 16th wedding anniversary four days ago. I will always have fond
memories of that film.

Miles

"Ksc4444" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That thing should be like

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300 bucks tops.

Who's holding a gun to your head, forcing you to buy one?

Nobody; thats why I won't be buying one. I thought I made my intentions of

NOT

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to buy extremely clear in my original post.

You did. I agree - it's too damned much; but like I said before, it's all about hype.

You *could* buy a brand new Surly S/S frame for ~$400 and build it up. Or do what I did, and find an
older CrMo steel frameset with horizontal dropouts and build that up. Mebbe that won't work for you
if you're gonna "go big". The P-series is seriously beefy.

There are plenty of gusseted frames with vertical dropouts selling for cheap these days. Get a Surly
Singleator or a Soulcraft "The Convert" and you're ready for S/S goodness. I had pretty good luck a
few years ago with a Singleator, a Hyperglide 18T cog and some spacers on a regular 8/9 speed
cassette hub. You can set the chainline exactly using spacers. Plastic sewer pipe works pretty good
if you cut it nice and square; but you could also use spacers from discarded cassettes. Uniglide
cassette cogs work better than Hyperglide, FWIW.

Quoted message said:

For all the smarmy BS, nobody managed to answer my original question. As a result, I shall
repost a

portion

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of the original message below:

Quoted message said:

How come the price does not drop due to a lack of

Quoted message said:

derailleurs and such? If there are less moving parts, then does logic

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dictate that the bloody price should drop accordingly?

Ho ho ho

HTH

Rocketman