Seven vs Litespeed

Quoted message said:

That could very well be. I don't know. Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do not do custom
frames but Seven does?

That's correct although Merline that's owned by Litespeed does offer custom fitting although using a
different approach.

Quoted message said:

No, this was something I believe I got off the internet and was not by someone selling anything.
Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do not do custom frames but Seven does.

Did this person say why? It's too easy for Internet "experts" to go around recommending one thing
over another because they never actually have to justify it. Do they speak from personal experience
or just "heard" it from someone on the Internet.

alan

Lightspeed made my custom frame a year ago. Did they change that policy?

custom model similar to their Classic, custom in these ways: different BB height, top & seat tube,
chainstay length, angles.

-Bruce

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Charlie C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

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The bike store that said the Seven was better than the Lite Speed, sold both. I do remember
that the Moot was considered top shelf. Though, I had heard that Habanero's should be avoided.

Of course they said Sevens were better - they are more expensive (I

would

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also guess that they make more money per bike off a Seven).

That could very well be. I don't know. Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do not do custom
frames but Seven does?

Also, they

Quoted message said:

probably said Habaneros should be avoided because they don't sell those.

No, this was something I believe I got off the internet and was not by someone selling anything.
Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do not do custom frames but Seven does.

Quoted message said:

Charlie

[email hidden] (Alan) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That could very well be. I don't know. Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do not do custom
frames but Seven does?

That's correct although Merline that's owned by Litespeed does offer custom fitting although using
a different approach.

Its my understanding that custom geometry/sizing is available from both Merlin and Litespeed for an
upcharge of like $500, for more see here:
litespeed.comcustom frames.htmlOpen ↗

Custom geometry/sizing is available on most ti frames including Habaneros which only cost $995
(standard frames start at $695), for more see here: habcycles.comroad.htmlOpen ↗

Thus, you don't NEED to spend the big bucks for something like a Seven if you want "custom" ti....

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne-<< The bike store that said the Seven was better than the Lite

Speed,

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sold both.

Then I question their credibility. If they really knew something about

their

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framesets, they wouldn't have said this, as they are both great examples

of ti

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framesets. I doubt a sales person could catagorically tell you why a

Litespeed

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was 'better' than a Seven.

<< Though, I had heard that Habanero's should be avoided.

Bugle oil....

Ok, great! That gives me more flexibility in my choice.

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<< Funny, the dream bike I would like to get, if only they made it in my

size,

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is the Trek 5900. My current frame is a 25 1/2 and it appears that the

Trek

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5900 does not come in a frame that big.

Calfees do-http://www.calfeedesign.com

Thank you for the Calfee web site.

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<< I guess the big advantage of the Seven is that you can get it custom so that I can get it in my
frame size.

may not need a custom, just a large frameset...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Alan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That could very well be. I don't know. Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do not do custom
frames but

Seven

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

does?

That's correct although Merline that's owned by Litespeed does offer custom fitting although using
a different approach.

Quoted message said:

No, this was something I believe I got off the internet and was not by someone selling anything.
Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

do custom frames but Seven does.

Did this person say why? It's too easy for Internet "experts" to go around recommending one thing
over another because they never actually have to justify it. Do they speak from personal
experience or just "heard" it from someone on the Internet.

No, can't say from experience since I am shopping for either a Ti or Carbon frame bike. Have
neither. I got this from research on the internet. And you are correct, there is no guarantee that
what you get off the internet is going to be correct. Getting the impression here that the accuracy
of the info I got off the internet may be suspect.

Quoted message said:

alan

If you're riding a 60cm frame, you're probably around 6 feet tall or more, so you probably weigh
(rough guess) around 180-190 pounds. So a few ounces on the frame won't make that much difference
unless you're a serious racer.

bikerider7 said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

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I am considering buying another bike and I have my choices narrowed down to a litespeed Tuscany
and the Seven Axiom. If anyone has one of these models could you please tell me the pros and
cons of each. I know Litespeed is a much bigger company that Seven. Are their bikes more
advanced?

The Litespeed seems a bit heavy to me. I considered purchasing the Tuscany last year until I saw
in their catalog that a 60cm frame weighed 3.6 pounds. There are plenty of frames in that price
range that are significantly lighter.

Of course, there are more important things than weight. But all other things being equal...

I would look at Dean and Independent Fabrication.

"Gary Smiley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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If you're riding a 60cm frame, you're probably around 6 feet tall or more,

so you probably weigh (rough

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guess) around 180-190 pounds. So a few ounces on the frame won't make that

much difference unless

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you're a serious racer.

I can't help wondering if going to a Swift Brooks saddle and a Thomson Seat post is worth the 200 to
save 15 Ozs off my touring bike. Incidentally, I do need a new saddle since my Ideale got caught in
the rain and got warped out of shape. (Is there anyway to fix it?) I prefer leather saddles over the
plastic ones or that would be a much cheaper way to save weight.

Quoted message said:

bikerider7 said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am considering buying another bike and I have my choices narrowed

down to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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a litespeed Tuscany and the Seven Axiom. If anyone has one of these

models

Quoted message said:

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could you please tell me the pros and cons of each. I know Litespeed

is a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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much bigger company that Seven. Are their bikes more advanced?

The Litespeed seems a bit heavy to me. I considered purchasing the Tuscany last year until I saw
in their catalog that a 60cm frame weighed 3.6 pounds. There are plenty of frames in that price
range that are significantly lighter.

Of course, there are more important things than weight. But all other things being equal...

I would look at Dean and Independent Fabrication.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne T said:

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BUT you ignoring seat tube ANGLE and top tube LENGTH...the only two

dimenions

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that mean anything...One persons 64cm doee not equal anothers...the

length

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of

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the seat tube means little....

Please explain. From day one, I was told that after deciding on whether

you

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want a touring or racing type bike and with what angles, you still have

to

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consider the size of the frame based on your inseam. If the top tube

goes

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straight across, you can straddle it and if you have the space ,I

believe,

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of a thumb's width, the bike is pretty much a correct size.

Wayne, you choose the saddle height based on the length of your leg, not the length of the seat
tube. That old saw that you quoted is what bike fit means to most shops, who want to get the bikes
out the door, but it is an oversimplification.

Actually, I got this from books explaining how to get a bike that fits correctly.

Top tube clearance is necessary to protect

Quoted message said:

the family jewels, but it says nothing else about fit.

Agreed, but I would think that it would be the first consideration.

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Consider that you contact the bike at the bars, the seat and the pedals. It's easy to see that
specifying the seat tube length says almost nothing about the relationship between those three
points. Once the seat height is decided, the seat can be moved forwards and back several inches,

Funny, my wife is under 5 foot. Her custom RedK is a 16 3/4" 27" wheel bike. Yet, it is still not
small enough. However, handlebar stems have gotten shorter so she is getting one. However, when
Bilenky moved her seat forward, he could see that her feet would be too far forward for comfortable
efficient pedaling.

the bars can be moved forwards and back, up and down. Most

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shops don't want to do this, as it's time consuming and margins are thin.

Weight distribution between the wheels is also a factor in all of this, too, and it makes a big
difference in the handling of a bike.

All of this stuff may have little to do with the enjoyment that you ultimately derive from your
bike, especially if you are of the average dimensions that most bikes are designed for. But a
well-fitting bike really does pay dividends in comfort and efficiency.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

"Scribe2b" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Though, I had

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heard that Habanero's should be avoided.

/////////// hey, you've got the manufacturer right on this forum, geez.

Yeah, I just noticed that. Wonder he didn't give me a tongue lashing.

Quoted message said:

dont substitute price for quality. the frames are all good when they are backed the way these all
are. first get the right FIT and the right

price,

If the quality of a Habanero is as good as say a Seven or Litespeed, then what are you lacking, if
anything, since price is lower? Is it a heavier bike? Or is frame just as good but just cheaper?

Quoted message said:

next jc

"Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne T said:

Please explain. From day one, I was told that after deciding on whether

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

want a touring or racing type bike and with what angles, you still have

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

consider the size of the frame based on your inseam. If the top tube

goes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

straight across, you can straddle it and if you have the space ,I

believe,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of a thumb's width, the bike is pretty much a correct size.

Quoted message said:

Seat tube length is ONE measurement; there are other important measurements. For example, if you
buy a shirt based only on neck size it MIGHT fit you. But two people with VERY different body
sizes and shapes might each have a 16" neck size. It's doubtful the same shirt would fit them
both. The same is true for bikes. You want to be positioned properly with respect to the BB, and
have the proper reach to the handlebars. To some extent, that can be "fudged" by moving the saddle
and changing the stem. But you generally want to chose a frame where the saddle can be centered on
its rails, and where a 110-120 mm stem gives you the proper reach.

Agreed. Wonder how people get off the shelf bikes to fit properly. My guess is that most riders are
average so perhaps that is why they can get a half decent fit. But I'm sure that there are a number
of riders with bikes that don't fit properly. My Raleigh seems to have fit properly with a 25
1/2" frame. Also, the custom RedK I bought second hand which was also a 25
2/2" . My wife being under 5' is another story. She plans to eventually go to a bike with either 26"
wheels or 650C. I forget which was recommended by builder. She could go to a Terry with the
smaller front wheel but she would prefer both wheels being the same unless nothing else works.

Quoted message said:

I won't say seat tube length is meaningless, because to some extent handlebar height is dependent
on seat tube length. And it's usually good to have at least an inch of crotch clearance too!

My point exactly.

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Art Harris

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1/2" . My wife being under 5' is another story. She plans to eventually go to a bike with either
26" wheels or 650C. I forget which was recommended by builder. She could go to a Terry with the
smaller front wheel but she would prefer both wheels being the same unless nothing else works.

Quoted message said:

You could perhaps try a compact geometry frame. I find that resolves a lot of the stand over height
issues for shorter people.

alan

Wayne,

Perhaps you might try another shop in the area. So much of this is better done in person.

Check out Tailwind Bicycles in Schwenksville, 610.287.7870 There is a custom frame builder, Peter
Dreesens, there who will talk directly with you about sizing. Plus bring your wife along so her fit
to her bike can be discussed also. If she has a short torso, then perhaps smaller wheels would help
getting a good fit. 650c or even smaller.

-Bruce

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne T said:

Please explain. From day one, I was told that after deciding on

whether

Quoted message said:

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

want a touring or racing type bike and with what angles, you still

have

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

consider the size of the frame based on your inseam. If the top tube

goes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

straight across, you can straddle it and if you have the space ,I

believe,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of a thumb's width, the bike is pretty much a correct size.
>

Seat tube length is ONE measurement; there are other important measurements. For example, if you
buy a shirt based only on neck size it MIGHT fit you. But two people with VERY different body
sizes and shapes might each have a 16" neck size. It's doubtful the same shirt would fit them
both. The same is true for bikes. You want to be positioned

properly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with respect to the BB, and have the proper reach to the handlebars. To some extent, that can be
"fudged" by moving the saddle and changing the stem. But you generally want to chose a frame
where the saddle can be centered on its rails, and where a 110-120 mm stem gives you the proper
reach.

Agreed. Wonder how people get off the shelf bikes to fit properly. My guess is that most riders
are average so perhaps that is why they can get

a

Quoted message said:

half decent fit. But I'm sure that there are a number of riders with

bikes

Quoted message said:

that don't fit properly. My Raleigh seems to have fit properly with a 25
1/2" frame. Also, the custom RedK I bought second hand which was also a

25

Quoted message said:

1/2" . My wife being under 5' is another story. She plans to eventually

go

Quoted message said:

to a bike with either 26" wheels or 650C. I forget which was recommended

by

Quoted message said:

builder. She could go to a Terry with the smaller front wheel but she

would

Quoted message said:

prefer both wheels being the same unless nothing else works.

Quoted message said:

I won't say seat tube length is meaningless, because to some extent handlebar height is
dependent on seat tube length. And it's usually good to have at least an inch of crotch
clearance too!

My point exactly.

Quoted message said:

Art Harris

"Belij3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I just noticed that. Wonder he didn't give me a tongue lashing

If you watch this board, he is not here to advertise. He generally leaves

alone

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the discussions of his bikes. I admire that. Habarneros do not have butted tubes, do little
advertising, sell direct,

and

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are made overseas, thus the price difference.

Actually, I did notice that he didn't comment on his bikes.

I remember noticing the nice prices for Habarneros bikes but then I saw a bad review for them.
However, it appears that most here feel that they are a decent Ti frame. So worth considering.

"Alan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1/2" . My wife being under 5' is another story. She plans to eventually

go

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to a bike with either 26" wheels or 650C. I forget which was

recommended by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

builder. She could go to a Terry with the smaller front wheel but she

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

prefer both wheels being the same unless nothing else works.

Quoted message said:

You could perhaps try a compact geometry frame. I find that resolves a lot of the stand over
height issues for shorter people.

But does it address the problem of being stretched out too far because the top tube is too long.
That was the problem with the custom 27". Though it was a very short frame and used steep angles, my
wife still had a lot of upper body pain because the length of the top tube was still too long. Will
be interesting to see what a short stem will do since they have shorter ones now then they did when
her bike was built.

Quoted message said:

alan

Wayne,

You might look at some stock frames for your wife. For example, Cannondale makes a standard road
bike with 650 wheels: cannondale.comgeo 35A.htmlOpen ↗

The limiting distance is the clearance between the front tire and the shoe. 650 wheels are about 2.5
cm / 1" smaller diameter, and thus can move the front wheel that much closer to the bottom bracket.
If you need to move it closer then the next size down is 24" / 520, as used on the front of some
Terry bikes.

Combine that with a shallow head angle to bring the steering axis back. Changing the seat angle can
change the actual top tube length, but the real distance you need to know is the horizontal distance
between the BB and the handlebar.

Positioning on the bike starts with centering your weight a certain amount in front of the BB (based
on your preference on how you like to position over the pedals). By centering you wieght over the
key part of the pedal stroke you reduce the need to pull on the bars. This varies with how
comfortable you are with stretching out your upper body. The more you can flatten your back, the
further back you can set the saddle. (for areo positioning you rotate the whole body forward, but
that's another discussion). Then you determing how far you like to reach from the saddle to the
bars. Take those three points and insert a bike that connects the three contact points. It's rare
that a custom dimensioned frame is neccessary. Most people can be fitted on a stock size frame by
adjustments to saddle position, stem length and height. For example, when I ordered a custom frame,
I used standard angles, top and seat tube lengths. What I did customize was longer chainstays, lower
bottom bracket, and a few braze-ons that are no longer standard on racing frames.

Quoted message said:

be interesting to see what a short stem will do since they have shorter

ones

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now then they did when her bike was built.

Short stems have been availble for decades. If you couldn't find them in the past then you didn't
look hard enough.

-Bruce

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Alan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1/2" . My wife being under 5' is another story. She plans to

eventually

Quoted message said:

go

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to a bike with either 26" wheels or 650C. I forget which was

recommended by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

builder. She could go to a Terry with the smaller front wheel but she

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

prefer both wheels being the same unless nothing else works.
>

You could perhaps try a compact geometry frame. I find that resolves a lot of the stand over
height issues for shorter people.

But does it address the problem of being stretched out too far because the top tube is too long.
That was the problem with the custom 27". Though

it

Quoted message said:

was a very short frame and used steep angles, my wife still had a lot of upper body pain because
the length of the top tube was still too long.

Will

Quoted message said:

be interesting to see what a short stem will do since they have shorter

ones

Quoted message said:

now then they did when her bike was built.

Quoted message said:

alan

Bruce said:

The limiting distance is the clearance between the front tire and the shoe. 650 wheels are about
2.5 cm / 1" smaller diameter, and thus can move the front wheel that much closer to the bottom
bracket. If you need to move it closer then the next size down is 24" / 520, as used on the front
of some Terry bikes.

It should be mentioned that 26" (aka "MTB"😉 rims work out better in most cases, especially in terms
of tire availability. 650's can be a pain to find.

Another thing to consider is that it's quite possible to ruin the handling of a bike by requiring
absolutely no toe overlap. While less TO is better, you have to look at the entire bike and decide
whether any of the methods you're using to eliminate it isn't causing more problems that it solves.
For most of us, a bit of TO is really a non-issue since we can only be moving at a very slow walking
speed to turn the bars far enough to cause interference, and even then if you've "practiced" you'll
simply drop your heel a bit when you feel the tire hit your toe.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Quoted message said:

It should be mentioned that 26" (aka "MTB"😉 rims work out better in most cases, especially in
terms of tire availability. 650's can be a pain to find.

That's why I recommended looking at Compact frames. This allows you the option of getting the right
stand over and fit without going to 650cc wheels. I'd hate to be looking for parts on a long tour in
the middle of nowhere.

Toe overlap is almost certain at frame sizes this small and is a necessary evil without screwing the
the geometry of the bike. The rider just has to be aware of it and learn to live with it. It's not
really a big deal. I'd be concerned if it was a track bike but otherwise it's really a non-issue.

alan