Seven vs Litespeed

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miles -- and it is still going strong as my commuter bike. 10 years on a $2,600 frame does not
seem like a very good return on investment -- regardless of its magical riding characteristics. I
would hope that the Seven frame would last forever, or until stolen or crushed by a car. --

I'm sure the bike will last longer. 10 years is just a number someone mentioned and it's a nice even
number. There is no reason to think why it wouldn't last 15, 20 or even 100 years. I don't think
that's why people inherantly buy a new bike because they wore out their last bike. I don't buy my
bike thinking that I'll pass it to my grandchildren.

alan

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Dave said:

The Guru bike isn't the most comfortable on century rides and I am told by a friend of mine (who
is a Litespeed dealer) that a Ti bike is much easier on the body than aluminums.

Just a word of caution - if you spend a lot of money (or even a little money...) on a ti bike to
get more "comfort", you'll be wasting the money. They have lots of other benefits (lack of paint
being my personal favorite), but you'd never be able to pick out the painted ti bike in a blind
test ride.

Believe me, I'd gladly jump on the "magic carpet ride" bandwagon if it were true...

Agree, if you want more "comfort", try wider tires (e.g., 700x25mm or even 28mm wide if you can
fit it). Wider tires = more air volume and will allow you to run lower pressure (100-110psi v.
120+++ for
700x20/23). Try wider tires first, its alot cheaper....

Mark Hickey said:

Just a word of caution - if you spend a lot of money (or even a little money...) on a ti bike to
get more "comfort", you'll be wasting the money. They have lots of other benefits (lack of paint
being my personal favorite), but you'd never be able to pick out the painted ti bike in a blind
test ride.

Believe me, I'd gladly jump on the "magic carpet ride" bandwagon if it were true...

Hmm, must be because your frames don't sport the all-important butted, tapered 6/4 tubing and curved
stays. You really should get with the times. ;^D

Chalo Colina

(Bluto) said:

Mark Hickey said:

Believe me, I'd gladly jump on the "magic carpet ride" bandwagon if it were true...

Hmm, must be because your frames don't sport the all-important butted, tapered 6/4 tubing and
curved stays. You really should get with the times. ;^D

I dunno... I do have curved stays on the Team Issue frame, but for the life of me they don't seem to
give much bounce to the rear end. I must have the wiggles pointin' in the wrong direction or
sumthin'.... (unlike some of my competitors who seem to think curving the stays smooths out the
bumps dramatically). ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes compellingly...

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(Bluto) said:

Mark Hickey said:

Believe me, I'd gladly jump on the "magic carpet ride" bandwagon if it were true...

Hmm, must be because your frames don't sport the all-important butted, tapered 6/4 tubing and
curved stays. You really should get with the times. ;^D

I dunno... I do have curved stays on the Team Issue frame, but for the life of me they don't seem
to give much bounce to the rear end. I must have the wiggles pointin' in the wrong direction or
sumthin'.... (unlike some of my competitors who seem to think curving the stays smooths out the
bumps dramatically). ;-)

Mark, Mark, Mark. You obviously don't know how to test frames. Here, do this: give a drawing of a
frame, with the curvy bits highlighted, to a highly-trained marketing department. Give them a pep
talk, using words like "new" and "damping," and "compliance."

By dint of sheer creativity and imagineering, they will not only instantly grasp the incredible
benefits of these engineering changes, they will become very excited, write the advertising words,
and believe them. All without any background in engineering, because, after all, engineering is for
geeks and there is all that math stuff you gotta deal with. They will then pass this excitement on
to your dealers who . . . wait, you don't have dealers. You sell to cyclists. Darn -- that's gonna
keep you honest because you work directly with the end-user. Oh, well. It was an idea.

MikeE

Bob Denton <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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I have a late 2001 Tuscany which I have been really pleased with. I bought it as parts, but I
bought the frame from my LBS and the fit was excellent.

My last bike lasted over ten years and I hope to get another ten out both of us. I am leary of the
2002/2003 integrated headset. I'd like to know that in 5 or 6 years I won't be combing E-bay
looking for a headset.

I'm building up a new frame, and I ran into the Chris King comments on the internal headset. In
searching the newsgroups, there seems to be a general option that internal headsets are bad. Here's
some points I think are missing from King's comments:

-As I understand it, the integrated headset is a Cane Creek design, so I'm willing to bet that King
has to work out some deal with Cane Creek in order to produce an internal headset to CC specs. I
assume (you know what happens when you assume) that it's the same deal for the zero stack (internal)
headset, so King came up with a different (Perdido) yet very similar design.

-I think it's a financial benefit to King if the industry quits using the internal headset.

-My Litespeed frame (Sienna) has internal headset "cups" pressed into the frame. The "cups" are made
out of 6/4 titanium, so they should be very hard compared to the bearing races that contact the
cups. I assume (there I go again) that the bearing race metal would wear out before the 6/4 Ti cups.
If the cups are damaged, they can be easily replaced (according to Litespeed). This gets rid of the
big alarm bell that King has been ringing concerning the internal headset.

-A frame using an integrated headset with pressed in cups is pretty similar to the internal headset
that both King and Cane Creek seem to like better than the internal headset.

One caviat, I haven't riden this new bike with the internal headset yet (there's -15 F windchills
outside). The thing may creek like a cat in heat and I'll change my tune...

Jay Wenner

(Sly D. Skeez) said:

-My Litespeed frame (Sienna) has internal headset "cups" pressed into the frame. The "cups" are
made out of 6/4 titanium, so they should be very hard compared to the bearing races that contact
the cups. I assume (there I go again) that the bearing race metal would wear out before the 6/4
Ti cups.

6/4 Ti is hard compared to 3/2.5 Ti, but it is neither as hard nor as wear-resistant as the
hardened steel of even the cheapest bearing races. It is unlikely that you will have any wear
related problems with your frame, but that would not be because of the use of 6/4 Titanium alloy.
Remember to use plenty of anti-seize or grease on all the contacting surfaces: bearing race to
cup, and cup to frame.

That said, I believe that King Cycle Group's opposition to internal & integrated headsets is based
on factors other than those noted in their well-publicized manifesto.

Chalo Colina

"Belij3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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I would choose Seven because every Tom, [censored], and Harry has a Litespeed.

Besides that, isn't the Seven a better frame?

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B

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"Belij3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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I would choose Seven because every Tom, [censored], and Harry has a Litespeed.

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Besides that, isn't the Seven a better frame?

Like "better" has any meaning in this context

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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"Belij3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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I would choose Seven because every Tom, [censored], and Harry has a Litespeed.

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Besides that, isn't the Seven a better frame?

Like "better" has any meaning in this context

Exactly, please define "better"? Are you referring to Seven's MBA designed marketing scheme of
selling you on a "detailed" questionnaire supposedly to create a frame to your specific needs? Then
tell me there are so many "custom" Seven frames being sold at 40-50% of retail because the bikes
just didn't fit....

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Wayne T-<< Besides that, isn't the Seven a better frame?

Better how?

I had heard that it was a better made frame and that you had the added flexibility of getting it
customed made.

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Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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"Belij3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> I would choose Seven because every Tom, [censored], and Harry has a

Litespeed.

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Quoted message said:

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Besides that, isn't the Seven a better frame?

Like "better" has any meaning in this context

Exactly, please define "better"? Are you referring to Seven's MBA designed marketing scheme of
selling you on a "detailed" questionnaire supposedly to create a frame to your specific needs?
Then tell me there are so many "custom" Seven frames being sold at 40-50% of retail because the
bikes just didn't fit....

Better, meaning better quality. As far as custom built, my bike shop sits you on a measuring cycle
and determines what you need. Of course it only works as good as the guy taking the measurements. I
was told that I should have a longer handlebar stem. When he demonstrated on the measuring cycle, I
immediately felt a pain in the middle of my back. I was told that that was because I was used to my
bike and that it would eventually feel better. A custom bike builder took a look of me on my current
bike and told me that it was fine the way it is.

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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> "Belij3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> "]news:[email hidden]...
> > I would choose Seven because every Tom, [censored], and Harry has a

Litespeed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> Besides that, isn't the Seven a better frame?

Like "better" has any meaning in this context

Exactly, please define "better"? Are you referring to Seven's MBA designed marketing scheme of
selling you on a "detailed" questionnaire supposedly to create a frame to your specific needs?
Then tell me there are so many "custom" Seven frames being sold at 40-50% of retail because the
bikes just didn't fit....

Better, meaning better quality. As far as custom built, my bike shop sits you on a measuring cycle
and determines what you need. Of course it only works as good as the guy taking the measurements.
I was told that I should have a longer handlebar stem. When he demonstrated on the measuring
cycle, I immediately felt a pain in the middle of my back. I was told that that was because I was
used to my bike and that it would eventually feel better. A custom bike builder took a look of me
on my current bike and told me that it was fine the way it is.

I think the problem was not whether you Seven makes "better" bikes or that you needed a frame from a
"custom bike builder", but rather you needed to find someone who actually knows how to fit a bike to
your specific needs. IF the person who does the fitting knows what he is doing, he would be able to
not only measure you for thing the various variables necessary to make you comfortable on your bike,
but should be able to adjust the bike to you...

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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[email hidden] (Pete Hausner) wrote in message

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>
==========
HMMMMM...

Any idea where all those "misfitted" bikes might be stashed? I'd LOVE to

spend

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a Saturday doing some shopping for a gaggle of cheap Sevens...

Try roadbikereview.com or ebay, you will see Seven frames going for as low as $1500; complete
bikes for like $3,000.

Maybe my memory is failing me, but I thought that a little over $3000 is what a complete Seven
Frame bike went for. Although, this is for a touring frame. You may be referring to one of their
super light racing bikes.

Apples and oranges, what you are referring to is Steven's tigged-welded STEEL frame (which I think
is outrageously priced at $1500...) What I'm talking about is Seven's Ti frames which start at
around $3,000 or so. Do a search on rec.bicycles.marketplace, roadbikereview.com or ebay and you
will find very recent used examples for alot less....want proof, check this out, its ti, its Seven
and its definitely custom, now look at the price:
cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dllOpen ↗

Yes, they're out there, you just have to look....

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Wayne-<< I had heard that it was a better made frame and that you had the

added

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flexibility of getting it customed made.

I think you heard either wrong or heard what you wanted to hear or the guy

was

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trying to sell ya something. Really tough to get a 'poor' ti frameset

these

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days. All are made well, all can give a great ride(if fit properly) from a

less

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than $1000 Habanero to a $3000 Serotta+, Seven, e or Litespeed.

I would say some of the best welds are from Moots...also a great ti

framesets

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for about $2000.

I think I mentioned it before but, what do you think of DEAN? Aren't they just down the
road from you?

Robin Hubert

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne-<< I had heard that it was a better made frame and that you had the

added

Quoted message said:

flexibility of getting it customed made.

I think you heard either wrong or heard what you wanted to hear or the guy

was

Quoted message said:

trying to sell ya something. Really tough to get a 'poor' ti frameset

these

Quoted message said:

days. All are made well, all can give a great ride(if fit properly) from a

less

Quoted message said:

than $1000 Habanero to a $3000 Serotta+, Seven, e or Litespeed.

I would say some of the best welds are from Moots...also a great ti

framesets

Quoted message said:

for about $2000.

The bike store that said the Seven was better than the Lite Speed, sold both. I do remember that the
Moot was considered top shelf. Though, I had heard that Habanero's should be avoided. One bike store
told me that the lightest racer from Lite Speed may have gone a bit too far. The last one they sold
was brought back a week later. Seems that it didn't hold up.

Funny, the dream bike I would like to get, if only they made it in my size, is the Trek 5900. My
current frame is a 25 1/2 and it appears that the Trek 5900 does not come in a frame that big. I
guess the big advantage of the Seven is that you can get it custom so that I can get it in my
frame size.

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In article <[email hidden]>, Wayne T

Quoted message said:

The bike store that said the Seven was better than the Lite Speed, sold both. I do remember that
the Moot was considered top shelf. Though, I had heard that Habanero's should be avoided.

That's the first time I've heard anyone say that here.

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Funny, the dream bike I would like to get, if only they made it in my size, is the Trek 5900. My
current frame is a 25 1/2 and it appears that the Trek 5900 does not come in a frame that big.

62cm is it.

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I guess the big advantage of the Seven is that you can get it custom so that I can get it in my
frame size.

If you want an all-carbon bike you can get a custom Calfee as well.

--Paul

"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

The bike store that said the Seven was better than the Lite Speed, sold both. I do remember that
the Moot was considered top shelf. Though, I had heard that Habanero's should be avoided.

Of course they said Sevens were better - they are more expensive (I would also guess that they make
more money per bike off a Seven). Also, they probably said Habaneros should be avoided because they
don't sell those.

Charlie

"Paul Southworth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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In article <[email hidden]>, Wayne T

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The bike store that said the Seven was better than the Lite Speed, sold both. I do remember that
the Moot was considered top shelf. Though, I

had

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heard that Habanero's should be avoided.

That's the first time I've heard anyone say that here.

How's that saying go? You heard it here first. Ha! I believe I picked this up from some research on
the internet. However, there are some pretty astute people here, so it is nice to hear posters here
saying that it is ok because it is an economical way to get into a Ti frame.

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Funny, the dream bike I would like to get, if only they made it in my

size,

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is the Trek 5900. My current frame is a 25 1/2 and it appears that the

Trek

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5900 does not come in a frame that big.

62cm is it.

Based on the fact that 1 cm equals .39 inch, a 25 1/2 inch frame would be equivalent to between 65
and 66 cm. 62cm is equal to 24.18 inches. Not big enough. Unless a racing bike is supossed to be
about an inch shorter than a touring bike.

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I guess the big advantage of the Seven is that you can get it custom so that I can get it in my
frame

size.

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If you want an all-carbon bike you can get a custom Calfee as well.

At what price? A stock Trek 5900 is around 4800.

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--Paul

"Charlie C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

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The bike store that said the Seven was better than the Lite Speed, sold both. I do remember that
the Moot was considered top shelf. Though, I had heard that Habanero's should be avoided.

Of course they said Sevens were better - they are more expensive (I would also guess that they
make more money per bike off a Seven).

That could very well be. I don't know. Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do not do custom
frames but Seven does?

Also, they

Quoted message said:

probably said Habaneros should be avoided because they don't sell those.

No, this was something I believe I got off the internet and was not by someone selling anything.
Does my memory serve me that Lite speeds do not do custom frames but Seven does.

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Charlie