Sequencing Workouts/Intensity

4 days a week seems to be a bit light.

if you're doing a build i'm assuming that right after this build you're not going to be racing?

if so, I'd ditch the VO2 ride in favor of ~10mins/slightly higher power Threshold ride on the Tuesday.. that way you're doing some pull up but not loosing Th volume..

VO2max is no problem to take care of... 3 weekw of VO2MAX in the build just before enter racing phase will be sufficient to take care of that.. that's all it takes to sufficiently max out your VO2max capacity.. concentrate on Threshold..

for Thursday i'd start at ~30min SST and then increase each week and see how it goes.. that's a tough three days..

I agree that it might be light in terms of days ridden, but in terms of TSS and IF its not a "light" week.

Thanks for the input Doc. I have a couple of B-races during the Build phase, but my spring "A race" comes about 3 weeks after Build ends.

vo2 workouts seem to bring me to a peak fairly quickly, so maybe I'll hold of on the Tue vo2 stuff in favor of more TH, and then introduce late in the Build phase.

A prominent power coach told me last year that his preferred method for training clients (with a solid base and a few years of training under their belts) is to have them do 3 and 4 day blocks, basically whip them until they can stand no more and then have them taper hard for a target race.

In essence he told me you have to give up on the notion of weeks and just focus on blocks. After 20 years in this sport I still struggle with that concept.

I guess in making those 3 days a hard block I'm trying to incorporate some of his thinking while still holding onto my traditional approach to doing things.

are you sure VO2max is that easy to take care of?

1) it takes me waaaaaaay longer than 3 weeks to build my MAP/Vo2max to full capacity (i'm a bit soft and don't like going that hard though)
2) i sure as eggs are eggs remember taking longer than 3 weeks to build pursuit power (which is essentially VO2max) in the guys i coach who do IP/TP (more like several months rather than several weeks)

Ric

I totally agree with that coach.. longer the build the better.. 3 weeks min.. 6 weeks max.. i try to plan for 4weeks and then adjust up or down depending on how it goes.. build, dip a little and then up again... i don't do a full rest between build.. don't want to de-train too much.. leave a little residual fatigue in there.. just up.. dip a little and then up again.. stepwise. i also like to increase weekly TSS as the build goes on.. everything is going up as you build, you build capacity to train as you go so you keep taking it up.. then i taper hard.. i prefer to take time right off the bike.. know that doesn't work for everyone but i was forced to to it one year (honeymoon) and it worked.. week and 1/2 right off and came back.. did a tune up week and i was a monster.. my last week before the break was a 925TSS week and i had 3 builds 5, 4, 3 [edit]wks[edit] to get there so i was pretty ready for a break at that point.. but it worked for me and i've been doing that ever since.. got to really watch what you eat so you don't gain weight though.. train hard bury yourself and then taper hard.. if you can do double workout [edit]days[edit].. they make your fitness go up REAL fast.. always do higher intensity workout earlier in week or day.. also found that if you don't let yourself d-train in the off season you don't need to do all that base training.. but like your coach said.. that's will only work when you've had a lot hard of season in your legs..

[edit]I'd add that when i start a new build cycle.. the starting week is the same or slightly less TSS as the last week of the previous build cycle[edit]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

are you sure VO2max is that easy to take care of?

1) it takes me waaaaaaay longer than 3 weeks to build my MAP/Vo2max to full capacity (i'm a bit soft and don't like going that hard though)
2) i sure as eggs are eggs remember taking longer than 3 weeks to build pursuit power (which is essentially VO2max) in the guys i coach who do IP/TP (more like several months rather than several weeks)

Ric

yes.. 4 weeks max... i have no experience with track, but for road.. yes.. that is sufficient to enter the season.. at that point your doing your B races and that racing will get you where you want to be.. if you care to look it up i'm pretty sure the literature will support the 3-4wk that i stated as well...

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I agree that it might be light in terms of days ridden, but in terms of TSS and IF its not a "light" week.

TSS is not a good measure. My weekly TSS is 50% higher than yours. I suspect your weeks are harder than mine.

A better measure is how many days a week you need to recover.

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My theory of "how others have approached resting/pushing themselves between harder workouts and what they observed in terms of performance later on" is that in races you put out your efforts when you are tired not when you are rested. So you should train (at least once in a while) when you are tired. That is why I think your weeks have too many rest days.

Thanks for the response OG. TSS, and what comprises my TSS, is all I really care about. Hours/days/miles etc. aren't as meaningful as they once were. That said I can see where 3 days of rest might seem like a lot to some. As an old guy myself I've found that resting hard really helps me push through tougher blocks of training and complete quality work.

BTW if you are putting in 1300-1500 TSS weeks I for one am impressed! I think that puts you in rarified air, as most Masters racers I know are in the 700-1,000 range.

As I said TSS is not a good measure.

1400 TSS is only 200 TSS/day. 200 TSS is 4 hours at 50% of FTP. Not really much to brag about, but it does produce high weekly totals. Most likely that type of riding will not improve what you want to improve.

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No I don't ride at 50%.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

As I said TSS is not a good measure.

1400 TSS is only 200 TSS/day. 200 TSS is 4 hours at 50% of FTP. Not really much to brag about, but it does produce high weekly totals. Most likely that type of riding will not improve what you want to improve.

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No I don't ride at 50%.

4 hours with NP at 50% of FTP = 100 TSS

You need to ride at a touch over 70% of FTP to get 200 TSS in 4 hours.

TSS is a great measure if you know how to calculate it properly.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Thanks for the response OG. TSS, and what comprises my TSS, is all I really care about. Hours/days/miles etc. aren't as meaningful as they once were. That said I can see where 3 days of rest might seem like a lot to some. As an old guy myself I've found that resting hard really helps me push through tougher blocks of training and complete quality work.

BTW if you are putting in 1300-1500 TSS weeks I for one am impressed! I think that puts you in rarified air, as most Masters racers I know are in the 700-1,000 range.

TSS works is a good measure of training volume and likely payoff as long as the mix of workouts that is used to build that TSS is suitable for the event(s) you're training for..

Agreed Doc, and that's why I said, all I care about is "TSS, and what comprises my TSS..."

g

I am another one that really looks at TSS because I am concerned on how it will impact my training on following days.

I saw this guideline from Dr. Coggan a while back and even though it is just a guide my current conditioning it seems to be right on the money for me.

The following scale can be used as an approximate guide:

• Less than 150 - low (recovery generally complete by following day)
  
• 150-300 - medium (some residual fatigue may be present the next day, but gone by 2nd day)
  
• 300-450 - high (some residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days)
  
• Greater than 450 - very high (residual fatigue lasting several days likely)
  

I know that my weekday training can be done virtually every day because I do not have time to rack up substantial TSS, but on Saturday and Sunday I have to be careful if I do not want to disrupt the following days of training and being consistent is something I feel is important. It took a few rides (big mile solo / group rides or fast paced group rides) to figure out what TSS impacted recovery and fatigue. Now I feel as if I can adjust intensity during the ride as necessary. The one thing I love about using the Garmin 800 with a PM is knowing on the bike what my TSS is and then I adjust my training accordingly.

As it applies to me (this is per individual) I can do a 300 TSS ride and get away with training L3 the next day, but if I end up with 350 TSS it seems like my legs are toast for a couple of days just as the guide above indicates. If I do a fast paced group ride with a lot of burned matches that is about ~310 TSS my legs seem to be toast for a couple of days. So I have learned on the long training rides if I am doing big blocks of L3 and I am reaching 300 TSS with 20 miles to go I may back it down to L2 level for the remaining miles so that my following days of training are not impacted. If I am in a fast group ride and I am supposed to be meeting training goals I will drop off the back of the group and do my own thang in order not to exceed what I want for TSS that day.

If I have the following day off from training I will forget it and have fun chasing. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

I am certainly not pushing my pespective and I do not race so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I will say that TSS is important to me in keeping my schedule consistent.

This kind of goes along with my latest blog ramblings of training in a manner that allows consitency.

thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.comforward thinking training.htmlOpen ↗

I made the flip from hrs to TSS about 3yrs ago.. i think it's much more useful number for a lot of the reason already given.. i do still map hours though.. it's interesting to see just the huge increase in efficiency of my training.. the hours to achieve a certain TSS has gone through the floor.. and this is also validated out in my own actual racing performance.. racing performance does really seem to track well with TSS.. really does seem to be that TSS volume (with the right mix of training) is the really indicative of what your training volume really is and adaptation..

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Alex Simmons [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

4 hours with NP at 50% of FTP = 100 TSS

You need to ride at a touch over 70% of FTP to get 200 TSS in 4 hours.

TSS is a great measure if you know how to calculate it properly.

I am sorry. I made a typo. I don't usually do the computation by hand. (I did the computation to not embarrass those who believe in TSS.)

According to the PowerAgent (PowerTap) software my TSS is over 300 everyday. 5 hour+ at 75% IF. I don't make any claims that my efforts are monumental. Just daily training. Certainly not efforts that lead to fatigue or need a day off.

Sorry for the typo.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I am sorry. I made a typo. I don't usually do the computation by hand. (I did the computation to not embarrass those who believe in TSS.)

According to the PowerAgent (PowerTap) software my TSS is over 300 everyday. 5 hour+ at 75% IF. I don't make any claims that my efforts are monumental. Just daily training. Certainly not efforts that lead to fatigue or need a day off.

Sorry for the typo.

checked my files quickly... ~.75 IF for 5hrs are hard days.. all pretty epic, hard rides.. what kind of VI are you seeing? For me these are all rides that I might do another similar ride the next day, but never 3 of those in a row..

I do see a few rides .8 to .85 IF, 300 + to 325TSS in the 4.5 to 5 hr, 6hrs regions.. one of those was a 200km ride in a small 5-6 man group one of which was the Canadian National Champion that year.. super HARD rides...

As I said TSS is not a good measure. The fact that you think my TSS scores would be hard for you supports my statement.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I do see a few rides .8 to .85 IF, 300 + to 325TSS in the 4.5 to 5 hr, 6hrs regions.. one of those was a 200km ride in a small 5-6 man group one of which was the Canadian National Champion that year.. super HARD rides...

Rides are as hard as you make them. 5 hour rides are a lot easier if you train for 5 hour rides and not 1 hour races.

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I am impressed by your numbers. 40Kph for 5 hours is great. It is not going to keep a good chase group away, but it does get rid of the rift-raft.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

As I said TSS is not a good measure. The fact that you think my TSS scores would be hard for you supports my statement.

Rides are as hard as you make them. 5 hour rides are a lot easier if you train for 5 hour rides and not 1 hour races.

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I am impressed by your numbers. 40Kph for 5 hours is great. It is not going to keep a good chase group away, but it does get rid of the rift-raft.

TSS is not an absolute measure.. it's based on the athletes own FTP/abilities.. it shouldn't matter who you are, how good or bad you are, those numbers should be hard for anyone..

I'm starting to think that maybe you're under estimated your FTP or your power meter simply hasn't been zero's correctly.. me and you can do the same workout and at the end have very different TSS's at the end of the day if we are of different abilities..