Scrambling

Bob Mannix said:

I always assumed a scramble was when you used your hands as well as your
feet, the grading then depending on steepness and exposure??

More or less mine, though I limit at the upper end too, so once you
decide you need ropes then it becomes "climbing".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Bob Mannix" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rudi Winter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a feeble attempt to make me renew my membership despite closing
down all the places I'm interested in, the YHA sent me their latest
Triangle yesterday[1].

On page 44, there's an article entitled "Learn to Scramble" (no, it's
/not/ about getting to the 35th floor of the 27th Inner London hostel
they've just opened). Since I'm never sure what exactly people mean
when they say "a bit of a scramble" I thought this might provide some
enlightenment.

Well, it did, in a way. It seems /nobody/ knows what anybody else means
by that term. But then they still produce a grading list which puts
Crib Goch in the easiest category.

What is your definition, then?

I always assumed a scramble was when you used your hands as well as your
feet, the grading then depending on steepness and exposure??

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

In that case I often scramble home from the pub!

Bob Mannix said:

There's bound to be a grey area but the previous posting on the use of ropes
(and possibly rock climbing shoes) would mark a definite boundary.

But as definite boundaries go, it's a bit woolly! I know people that
will consider stuff I would deploy ropes and EBs on as an easy scramble,
and in turn there are people that wouldn't dream of attempting bits of
what I see as scrambling without extras.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Mannix said:

There's bound to be a grey area but the previous posting on the use of
ropes (and possibly rock climbing shoes) would mark a definite boundary.

But as definite boundaries go, it's a bit woolly! I know people that will
consider stuff I would deploy ropes and EBs on as an easy scramble, and in
turn there are people that wouldn't dream of attempting bits of what I see
as scrambling without extras.

I was going to say that (one person's scramble is touching the void for
someone else) but decided I liked the word "scramble" undefined. If you are
doing it and you think it's a scramble then it is.

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Rudi Winter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a feeble attempt to make me renew my membership despite closing
down all the places I'm interested in, the YHA sent me their latest
Triangle yesterday[1].

On page 44, there's an article entitled "Learn to Scramble" (no, it's
/not/ about getting to the 35th floor of the 27th Inner London hostel
they've just opened). Since I'm never sure what exactly people mean
when they say "a bit of a scramble" I thought this might provide some
enlightenment.

Well, it did, in a way. It seems /nobody/ knows what anybody else means
by that term. But then they still produce a grading list which puts
Crib Goch in the easiest category.

What is your definition, then?

There are supposed to be 3 grades of scrambling, 1 being the easiest and 3
being the hardest. Crib Goch is an easy scramble, ie a 1. After 3, people
start talking about 3S which means a serious grade 3! Seeing as you would
probably break a leg if you fell off a grade 3, I'm not too sure why another
distinction is made. I guess this equates to moderate rock climbing.

Bill O'Connor's '50 best scrambles in the LD' includes a description of the
grades.

Graham

Bob Mannix said:

Scrambling is what tou do with no equipment other than your hands and feet,

Ok, so hands needed but no "hardware" seems to be the consensus here.
That's exactly what I'd have said, but if you look at the grades they
mention in the article, that applies only to the easiest grade.
On the other hand, the photographs show people happily walking in
slightly rocky terrain.
--
Rudi Winter, Aberystwyth, Wales

Graham Seed said:

There are supposed to be 3 grades of scrambling, 1 being the easiest and 3
being the hardest. Crib Goch is an easy scramble, ie a 1. After 3, people
start talking about 3S which means a serious grade 3! Seeing as you would
probably break a leg if you fell off a grade 3, I'm not too sure why another
distinction is made. I guess this equates to moderate rock climbing.

Yes, that's the grades mentioned in the article. But it doesn't seem to
be what people here (myself included) seem to have in mind when they use
the word "scramble".
--
Rudi Winter, Aberystwyth, Wales

"Graham Seed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rudi Winter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a feeble attempt to make me renew my membership despite closing
down all the places I'm interested in, the YHA sent me their latest
Triangle yesterday[1].

On page 44, there's an article entitled "Learn to Scramble" (no, it's
/not/ about getting to the 35th floor of the 27th Inner London hostel
they've just opened). Since I'm never sure what exactly people mean
when they say "a bit of a scramble" I thought this might provide some
enlightenment.

Well, it did, in a way. It seems /nobody/ knows what anybody else means
by that term. But then they still produce a grading list which puts
Crib Goch in the easiest category.

What is your definition, then?

There are supposed to be 3 grades of scrambling, 1 being the easiest and 3
being the hardest. Crib Goch is an easy scramble, ie a 1. After 3, people
start talking about 3S which means a serious grade 3! Seeing as you would
probably break a leg if you fell off a grade 3, I'm not too sure why
another distinction is made. I guess this equates to moderate rock
climbing.

Bill O'Connor's '50 best scrambles in the LD' includes a description of
the grades.

Grades are very hard to quantify, neigh impossible as are climbing grades.
They only give an idea at best.

The Inaccessible Pinnacle (Sgurr Dearg) is classed as a climb (moderate) up
the easy way. But in dry conditions for someone with experience is just a
scramble. Just a bit drastic if you fall of mind;-)

JS

"John Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote
..

Quoted message said:

Grades are very hard to quantify, neigh impossible as are climbing grades.
They only give an idea at best.

Yes, it is subjective, BUT, I would expect an interesting yet
not-too-frightening scramble at gd1, and a knee trembler at gd3. You might
disagree about whether a pitch was 2 or 3, but in scrambling terms you
would still be saying 'not easy', so you're actually giving a good idea.

Quoted message said:

The Inaccessible Pinnacle (Sgurr Dearg) is classed as a climb (moderate)
up the easy way. But in dry conditions for someone with experience is just
a scramble. Just a bit drastic if you fall of mind;-)

Yes exactly. Technically the easy way up the In Pinn is a scramble, but it's
given a moderate grading because it's so sensational. However, should you
fall off the Pinnacles on Crib Goch you'd probably be dead too.

Skye Scrambles, which most people consider to be an excellent guide, is not
compromised by including the lower end of climbing in its routes.
Ultimately, scrambling and climbing merge, and anyone's definitions will
alter after after a sustained period of practice!

Graham

Rudi Winter said:

Graham Seed said:

There are supposed to be 3 grades of scrambling, 1 being the easiest and 3
being the hardest. Crib Goch is an easy scramble, ie a 1. After 3, people
start talking about 3S which means a serious grade 3! Seeing as you would
probably break a leg if you fell off a grade 3, I'm not too sure why another
distinction is made. I guess this equates to moderate rock climbing.

Yes, that's the grades mentioned in the article. But it doesn't seem to
be what people here (myself included) seem to have in mind when they use
the word "scramble".

Bill Birketts "Great British Ridge Walks" uses the same scale, but he
manages to break down some longer scramles into more defined sections
for which he'll often apply half grades, e.g. 1.5. As with other
authors, he has no scramble. above Grade 3.

druidh

Graham Seed said:

Seeing as you would probably break a leg if you fell off a grade 3,
I'm not too sure why another distinction is made. I guess this
equates to moderate rock climbing.

You could die if you fell of a grade 1, depending on where you fell. I
don't think risk of injury has anything to do with it, scrambling is simply
climbing without ropes. Because of this, most scrambles are essentially
easy climbs, because few people would attempt anything really difficult
without ropes. Taken to extremes though, free climbing can be extremely
dangerous, but only a skilled and confident climber would attempt a
dangerous climb without ropes, and probably wouldn't call it scrambling if
ropes would usually be needed.

Maybe scrambling is simply what non-climbers do, because they don't have any
climbing gear, and it's relatively easy because non-climbers wouldn't
attempt anything too difficult.

But even though scrambling may be technically easier, it can sometimes be
far more dangerous, since you don't have a rope if you do fall. When
scrambling you can easily get yourself into a very exposed position that you
can't avoid. I've experienced this a few times, wondering how on earth I
got myself into those situations! The exposure tends to be more worrying
than the technical difficulty.

Paul

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You could die if you fell of a grade 1, depending on where you fell. I

don't think risk of injury has anything to do with it,

Point taken.

scrambling is simply

Quoted message said:

climbing without ropes. Because of this, most scrambles are essentially
easy climbs, because few people would attempt anything really difficult
without ropes. Taken to extremes though, free climbing can be extremely
dangerous, but only a skilled and confident climber would attempt a
dangerous climb without ropes, and probably wouldn't call it scrambling if
ropes would usually be needed.

I think you're tying youself in knots there! Scrambling has accepted levels
of difficulty, just as climbing does, and the more you do it the more you
recognise the different levels. Some people might need a rope on a gd1
scramble - well, they can call that climbing if they want, but a climber
would have been disapointed if was invited to do a 'climb' by the same
party. As you mention, some heroes climb at Diff for pleasure so scrambling
can't 'simply' be climbing without ropes.

Quoted message said:

Maybe scrambling is simply what non-climbers do, because they don't have
any climbing gear, and it's relatively easy because non-climbers wouldn't
attempt anything too difficult.

Well it gives a definition that walkers aspiring to more exciting walks can
understand, but as their confidence grows then their definition changes.
People writing books on the subject have to have fixed boundaries so they
can explain the technical difficulty, otherwise Bill O'connors book would
have been ' 50 best walksover rough ground where you might have to use your
hands' :-)

Quoted message said:

But even though scrambling may be technically easier, it can sometimes be
far more dangerous, since you don't have a rope if you do fall. When
scrambling you can easily get yourself into a very exposed position that
you can't avoid. I've experienced this a few times, wondering how on
earth I got myself into those situations! The exposure tends to be more
worrying than the technical difficulty.

I know exactly what you're saying - been there myself a few times...but
then, there's no reason why we can't get a rope out if there's two of us on
the scramble, er, climb! ;-).

Graham

In message <[email hidden]>, Graham Seed
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Rudi Winter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a feeble attempt to make me renew my membership despite closing
down all the places I'm interested in, the YHA sent me their latest
Triangle yesterday[1].

On page 44, there's an article entitled "Learn to Scramble" (no, it's
/not/ about getting to the 35th floor of the 27th Inner London hostel
they've just opened). Since I'm never sure what exactly people mean
when they say "a bit of a scramble" I thought this might provide some
enlightenment.

Well, it did, in a way. It seems /nobody/ knows what anybody else means
by that term. But then they still produce a grading list which puts
Crib Goch in the easiest category.

What is your definition, then?

There are supposed to be 3 grades of scrambling, 1 being the easiest and 3
being the hardest. Crib Goch is an easy scramble, ie a 1. After 3, people
start talking about 3S which means a serious grade 3! Seeing as you would
probably break a leg if you fell off a grade 3, I'm not too sure why another
distinction is made. I guess this equates to moderate rock climbing.

If you fall off the steep side of Crib Goch you stand to break your
neck!

Quoted message said:

Bill O'Connor's '50 best scrambles in the LD' includes a description of the
grades.

Graham

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

In article <[email hidden]>, Graham Seed
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I've seen people frozen with fear on Striding
Edge, a route I wouldn't normally consider a scramble, but clearly to them
it was.

Well put. The degree of difficulty is surely subjective based on one's
ability with considerations of physical capability and the affect of
exposure (which in itself is subjective). The gradings must surely start
at the level of beginner, which in itself could be classed as easy.

An experienced walker / climber is beyond giving an objective opinion if
he can't think on the same level as a novice.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:15:35 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Rudi

Winter) said:

What is your definition, then?

If I start thinking, "Oh [censored], I *really* wish I had some gear right
now!" then it's no longer a scramble. <g>

Al
--
[This space left intentionally blank]

W. D. Grey said:

An experienced walker / climber is beyond giving an objective opinion if
he can't think on the same level as a novice.

Everyone is necessarily beyond an "objective opinion", because
beginners don't begin equal. Some people can get straight on with
climbing and scrambling completely unfazed by the exposure, some
never really come to terms with it at all, and all shades between.
Similarly, some people are "natural" climbers and others are
clumsy and have poor balance, irrespective of whether they're
experienced or not.

Much like sleeping bag ratings, it can only /ever/ be a general guide.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:15:35 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Rudi

Winter) said:

On page 44, there's an article entitled "Learn to Scramble" (no, it's
/not/ about getting to the 35th floor of the 27th Inner London hostel
they've just opened). Since I'm never sure what exactly people mean
when they say "a bit of a scramble" I thought this might provide some
enlightenment.

Well, it did, in a way. It seems /nobody/ knows what anybody else means
by that term. But then they still produce a grading list which puts
Crib Goch in the easiest category.

What is your definition, then?

I've often thought of a scramble as a route on which I use my hands
though if I had perfect balance I wouldn't need to.

John D.
--
John Dawson at home in Kendal, Cumbria.
Lake District Walks Web Pages http://www.lakedistrictwalks.com/
Kilimanjaro trip at http://www.lakedistrictwalks.com/kilimanjaro/
Egypt trip at http://www.lakedistrictwalks.com/egypt/
--
John Dawson at home in Kendal, Cumbria.
Lake District Walks Web Pages http://www.lakedistrictwalks.com/
Kilimanjaro trip at http://www.lakedistrictwalks.com/kilimanjaro/
Egypt trip at http://www.lakedistrictwalks.com/egypt/

Alan Bremner said:

Quoted message said:

What is your definition, then?

If I start thinking, "Oh [censored], I *really* wish I had some gear right
now!" then it's no longer a scramble. <g>

I think it is. That's the kind of situation that tends to crop up now and
again in the middle of an easy scramble, and may be all part of the fun of
it! You woudn't carry ropes and helmets for an easy scramble, just for one
short difficult bit, would you? If you had all the gear you'd probably
choose a harder route!

Paul

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If I start thinking, "Oh [censored], I *really* wish I had some gear right
now!" then it's no longer a scramble. <g>

Quoted message said:

I think it is. That's the kind of situation that tends to crop up now and
again in the middle of an easy scramble, and may be all part of the fun of
it! You woudn't carry ropes and helmets for an easy scramble, just for one
short difficult bit, would you? If you had all the gear you'd probably
choose a harder route!

It depends on what you want to do. The Inn Pin for instance could be
construed as an easy scramble. It must be as I very nearly soloed it one
year but my brave leader vetoed leaving our sacks at the bottom so we
roped up. Gordon Stainforth (The Cuillin) grades the Inn Pin as R1, the
same (oddly) as Kings Chimney. (R indicates a rock climbing grade which
is a distinction most other authors don't seem to bother with). R1
equates to "Easy - Moderate" (R2 Moderate - Difficult). Elsewhere the
climb up to the TD Gap is also graded R1 (a good deal easier than Kings
Chimney but the first time I met with it I insisted on a top rope) as
well as several sections further along the ridge. He does however go
overboard on Bidian Druim nan Ramh with a section of R2 followed by R3
(Hard Diff - V. Diff).

As for gear we never carried more than 120 feet of No 3 (hawser laid)
and 2 or maybe 3 slings. And 2 of the slings were necessary for
abseiling.

The reference above to helmets reminds me of one year when we were stuck
in the queue above the TD Gap for a long long time while some
overdressed youth (all the gear including a helmet) in the middle of a
rope of 3 struggled to get off the ground. Eventually No 3 climbed up to
join No 1 and together they managed to haul No 2 up like a stack of
spuds. Apparently some years previously No 2s father had done the Main
Ridge on his first visit and junior was trying to emulate him, but just
wasn't up to it. No 2 was escorted off the Ridge via the great Stone
Shoot and the other climber went on to complete the rest on his own.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year nothing new.