In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:
W. D. Grey said:
An experienced walker / climber is beyond giving an objective opinion if he can't think on the same level as a novice.
Everyone is necessarily beyond an "objective opinion", because beginners don't begin equal. Some people can get straight on with climbing and scrambling completely unfazed by the exposure, some never really come to terms with it at all, and all shades between. Similarly, some people are "natural" climbers and others are clumsy and have poor balance, irrespective of whether they're experienced or not.
Much like sleeping bag ratings, it can only /ever/ be a general guide.
Pete.
True, but asking a hill-hardened walker/climber might well result in a distorted opinion afar as a novice is concerned. -- Bill Grey http://www.billboy.co.uk
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:03:15 +0000, Phil Cook <[email hidden]> wrote:
... >Paul Saunders wrote: ... > ... >>John Dawson wrote: ... >> ... >>> I've often thought of a scramble as a route on which I use my hands ... >>> though if I had perfect balance I wouldn't need to. ... >> ... >>Nah! That's just walking over rough ground! ... >> ... >>This is scrambling! ... >>http://www.pvs1.f2s.com/scrambling.jpg ... > ... >Call yourself a photographer? Those pictures really are [censored].
Yep ......... should go down as the worst photos so far this year on here ! Perhaps we could start a new thread for the worstest .. :-)
Is that really classed as a scramble .... looks as though it could be a flat head if you bombed of that ?
.. >Call yourself a photographer? Those pictures really are [censored].
Yep ......... should go down as the worst photos so far this year on here !
Technically they aren't photos, they're video grabs. Long play VHS-C with a nasty lens converter on the front! The tapes were quite expensive back then. Never really got into video.
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:51:49 -0000, "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote:
... >Mike P wrote: ... > ... >> .. >Call yourself a photographer? Those pictures really are [censored]. ... >> ... >> Yep ......... should go down as the worst photos so far this year on ... >> here ! ... > ... >Technically they aren't photos, they're video grabs. Long play VHS-C with a ... >nasty lens converter on the front! The tapes were quite expensive back ... >then. Never really got into video. ... > ... >> Is that really classed as a scramble .... ... > ... >Yep, North Ridge of Tryfan - Grade 1 (Easy) ... > ... >Paul ... >
Been there .. dun that .. I just don't remember that bit
True, but asking a hill-hardened walker/climber might well result in a distorted opinion afar as a novice is concerned.
To the inexperienced, climbing/scrambling grades are meaningless anyway. Only someone who's climbed a HVS 5C will have any idea what it feels like but having had the experience they will then understand what to expect from a similarly graded climb that is new to them (and IME climb grades tend to be reasonably consistent. Certainly reliably indicative anyway) and it will also make them think twice about launching themselves up 6A without protection if they know 5C is thier limit. As long as the system is used consistenly then once initiated it becomes of use but not before.
I always assumed a scramble was when you used your hands as well as your feet, the grading then depending on steepness and exposure??
Bob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
In that case I often scramble home from the pub!
I sometimes use finger-tip lay-backs on the bannister rails when tackling the ascent of Tobed via Staircase. Thus far I have declined a top rope. Is this a scramble or a free climb? -- Gordon Harris
If I start thinking, "Oh [censored], I *really* wish I had some gear right now!" then it's no longer a scramble. <g>
Quoted message said:
I think it is. That's the kind of situation that tends to crop up now and again in the middle of an easy scramble, and may be all part of the fun of it! You woudn't carry ropes and helmets for an easy scramble, just for one short difficult bit, would you? If you had all the gear you'd probably choose a harder route!
And a scramble can include a more difficult bit that climbers could get up without spilling their coffee but which non-climbers might be too scared to try even with a rope. "Needing" a rope or other technical gear is very personal and widely variable. And what kind of an extra factor exposure gives is very widely variable.
I've had to use a rope to help a fear-frozen novice off a large steep slab after others in the party had tried walking up and down and all around the stuck climber with hands in pockets to show that there was no danger of sliding down to one's death.
-- Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Bill said... but asking a hill-hardened walker/climber might well result in a distorted opinion afar as a novice is concerned.
Not sure that's really true, or if it is technically true, it's not really the point. The novice will usually start by either walking or proper (but easy) rock climbing.
He'll want to only try scrambling once he's done some of the more exciting walks. He enjoys Striding Edge, what about Crib Goch next ? Doesn't enjoy Crib Goch at all - then studiously avoids anything remotely called "scrambling". Doesn't really need to know the difference between a "3" and a "2" or whatever the numbers might be.
Someone who's done some easy rock climbs, but not hillwalking (perfectly plausible), at least knows what an easy climb is like, so has something to base his judgement on.
In article <[email hidden]>, hyweldavies <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Bill said... but asking a hill-hardened walker/climber might well result in a distorted opinion afar as a novice is concerned.
Not sure that's really true, or if it is technically true, it's not really the point. The novice will usually start by either walking or proper (but easy) rock climbing.
You're right in so far as I've strayed off the original posting which asked for a definition of a scramble.
As for my above statement there is a truth there, as I have experienced personally. I was told by one person that a particular route had considerable EXPOSURE. Not being one to relish the exposure bit, I didn't use that route. Another - more reliable person gave me a more definitive description of the route. Based on this I gave it a go and it was in fact not al all as bad as I had been first told.
The first person was presumably trying to show himself to be some sort of fearless adventurer (a macho man if you like) whereas the second, a down to earth honest one. -- Bill Grey http://www.billboy.co.uk
The first person was presumably trying to show himself to be some sort of fearless adventurer (a macho man if you like) whereas the second, a down to earth honest one.
Perhaps. Or perhaps #1 was just more affected by exposure than #2, and consequently had found it rather more "character building" than you did...
Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
If I start thinking, "Oh [censored], I *really* wish I had some gear right now!" then it's no longer a scramble. <g>
Quoted message said:
I think it is. That's the kind of situation that tends to crop up now and again in the middle of an easy scramble, and may be all part of the fun of it!
I've had more than a few of those and you're right, it's all part of the experience and thrill.
I don't think I *can* give a definition other than a general "scrambling requires occasional use of the hands in a less-than-vertical environment' type of thing. I'm very aware that my own comfort level on steep ground is probably greater than most of my regular walking partners due to my climbing experience, and my notion of a 'sporting scramble' may give others the screaming heeby-jeebies!
In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:
W. D. Grey said:
The first person was presumably trying to show himself to be some sort of fearless adventurer (a macho man if you like) whereas the second, a down to earth honest one.
Perhaps. Or perhaps #1 was just more affected by exposure than #2, and consequently had found it rather more "character building" than you did...
Pete.
#1 may well have been a bit scared by his perception of exposure I certainly did not find the situation in the least worrying - and I'm definitely not a lover of exposure. Perhaps I under-rate my tolerance of certain amounts of exposure.
In message <[email hidden]>, W. D. Grey <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes
Quoted message said:
W. D. Grey said:
The first person was presumably trying to show himself to be some sort of fearless adventurer (a macho man if you like) whereas the second, a down to earth honest one.
Perhaps. Or perhaps #1 was just more affected by exposure than #2, and consequently had found it rather more "character building" than you did...
Pete.
#1 may well have been a bit scared by his perception of exposure I certainly did not find the situation in the least worrying - and I'm definitely not a lover of exposure. Perhaps I under-rate my tolerance of certain amounts of exposure.
#2's opinion was indeed accurate.
I once inquired about exposure on the Nantle Ridge, and was told there wasn't much, and Craig Pennant (just west of the low point in the middle) was the worse bit. In fact there was a really unpleasant bit of exposure - the only worse bit I've encountered was on Stob Coire Sgreamthach leading to Ben Fhada - between the two easternmost peaks (much worse than Striding Edge, for example), and I didn't like the look of the notch in the ridge leading down to the central low point.
People's judgement of exposure can be quite idiosyncratic. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley
