Replacing one spoke

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Robin Hubert writes:

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Coming from a bicycle shop that builds wheels, I suppose

that this

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"make work" method might temporarily improve earnings, but

it is

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like wheel builders who sell tying and soldering spokes as a
necessity for reliability and "better performance". After a

while

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most customers realize they are being charged for

unnecessary work.

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And the proper thing to do is...?

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I've always thought replacing one or two spokes involves

those

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spokes only. IOW, simply take out the old (broken) spoke and

put a

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new one in place, tension, and true.

Not only that, but if possible, don't make any adjustments to

adjacent

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spokes to improve trueness while riding home to make the

replacement.

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Those changes are generally harder to correct after replacing

the

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broken spoke. Of course if it's not a 36-spoke wheel, this may

not be

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an option.

Botique wheels are another good reason for single pivot brakes --
so you can get the pads to open really wide when you break a
spoke. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

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> Coming from a bicycle shop that builds wheels, I suppose that
> this "make work" method might temporarily improve earnings, but
> it is like wheel builders who sell tying and soldering spokes as
> a necessity for reliability and "better performance". After a
> while most customers realize they are being charged for
> unnecessary work.

Quoted message said:

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And the proper thing to do is...?

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I've always thought replacing one or two spokes involves those
spokes only. IOW, simply take out the old (broken) spoke and put
a new one in place, tension, and true.

Quoted message said:

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Not only that, but if possible, don't make any adjustments to
adjacent spokes to improve trueness while riding home to make the
replacement. Those changes are generally harder to correct after
replacing the broken spoke. Of course if it's not a 36-spoke
wheel, this may not be an option.

Quoted message said:

Boutique wheels are another good reason for single pivot brakes --
so you can get the pads to open really wide when you break a spoke.

I'm not sure whether this is tongue-in-cheek or not. With old single
pivot brakes, you don't need to do anything descending because they
will track a wobbly wheel. Meanwhile the dual pivot brake MUST be
opened wide because it cannot swivel and the higher mechanical
advantage means there is no brake at all when it is wide open.

You may have been alluding to these great features, but I wasn't sure.

Jobst Brandt

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FWIW, I'm replacing a spoke on a 28-spoke front wheel with Ultegra hub
radially laced to Velocity Aerohead rim. I stopped by to see my
favorite mechanic in town, and he told me I should loosen the spokes
all around a bit before taking out the bad spoke. This is obviously not
BS advice on his part, since he knows I do the repairs myself.

Just different ways of doing things?

On another topic, I posted about using loctite on spoke threads some
time ago, with answers from Jobst Brandt and Sheldon Brown and others
saying definitely NO to that. However, Lennard Zinn recommends in his
book to use a little (which I did when I built up my first set of
wheels 3 1/2years ago, and they've held up beautifully) and -- again --
my favorite mechanic told me to use a tiny bit for the rear wheel I was
building.

So who's right? Or is it a question of different practices with the
same successful outcome IF done by competent builders?

I'm curious about this, because I will be building up a new set in the
near future, and was considering using only grease on the threads this
time, and no loctite. I guess my only concern is that the spokes will
loosen over time. But if properly tensioned, that shouldn't happen,
locitite or no loctite. Right?

Regarding screwing around with unrelated spokes near the
broken one - why? Ask him some time. Creative answers might
be entertaining.

Regarding thread locker on nipples - why? And if it's such
a good idea why "a little"? If it's helpful, why not a lot!!?

Threaded fasteners, be they nipples or crank bolts, need
lubrication. There's no magic in that. If the wheel is
properly tensioned, it won't fall apart in the absence of
locktite. If tension is sloppily low, like most 'off the
rack' cheap wheels, locktite might help-- but bringing it up
to proper tension would be a better path.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article <[email hidden]>, A Muzi

() said:

Threaded fasteners, be they nipples or crank bolts, need
lubrication.

Tell that to my cleat fixing bolts :-(

Bah!

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
und keine Eie.

Quoted message said:

On another topic, I posted about using loctite on spoke threads some
time ago, with answers from Jobst Brandt and Sheldon Brown and others
saying definitely NO to that. However, Lennard Zinn recommends in his
book to use a little (which I did when I built up my first set of
wheels 3 1/2years ago, and they've held up beautifully) and -- again --
my favorite mechanic told me to use a tiny bit for the rear wheel I was
building.

So who's right? Or is it a question of different practices with the
same successful outcome IF done by competent builders?

I had just one wheel that was built with Locktite (out of several sets,
both road & off-road). That wheel stayed true until the rim wore out. It
was a minor nuisance to swap rims, unscrewing the nipples took a bit
longer, I had to use the wrench all the way. Not a show stopper.

I'd say that Locktite isn't necessary, and can make wheel servicing a
bit more trouble, if you're going to use it, only use the weakest
compound. Most wheels shouldn't suffer spoke loosening, if they do it's
probably a symptom of other problems. For crappy rims that are prone to
cracking at the eyelets it may be the only way to run spokes at low
enough tension to prevent that, but it's a kludge. It shouldn't be the
default method.

From what I've read from Zinn, I'm less than impressed. I was
particularly struck by how he claims to understand the unique
requirements of tall riders, but still uses minimum length chainstays on
his tall frames. Being 6'10" and having some experience, I'd say he's
rather clueless, and if he can be so wrong about the area of his
"expertise", what hope does that leave for other areas?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie writes:

<snip>

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Boutique wheels are another good reason for single pivot

brakes --

Quoted message said:

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so you can get the pads to open really wide when you break a

spoke.

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure whether this is tongue-in-cheek or not. With old

single

Quoted message said:

pivot brakes, you don't need to do anything descending because

they

Quoted message said:

will track a wobbly wheel. Meanwhile the dual pivot brake MUST

be

Quoted message said:

opened wide because it cannot swivel and the higher mechanical
advantage means there is no brake at all when it is wide open.

You may have been alluding to these great features, but I

wasn't sure.

It was tongue in cheek, but I hate using those little smiley
faces. As an aside, I got some low spoke count pre-fab wheels
from a mid-fi manufacturer really cheap and decided to give them
a try. The rear wheel kept going slack (even though the spokes
were treated with spoke prep), and when I brought it up to a more
reasonable tension, spokes broke. I kept using the front wheel,
and I was riding up in the hills a few weeks ago, and I broke a
front spoke. The wheel went wildly out of true. I couldn't
adjust the spoke tension because the spokes required a special
tool, which I did not have with me. I ended up riding home with
the wheel baning into the brake pad down some pretty good
descents, and with the cam off, of course. Totally ruined a good
ride. There are many better botique wheels out there, but any
low spoke count wheel that breaks a single spoke is going to be a
problem, especially if adjusting the remaining spokes requires a
special tool not ordinarily carried on-bike. -- Jay Beattie.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:20:30 -0800, "Rico X. Partay" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This is funny. Last year (I think it was) I came in here
with a story about my LBS where the dude refused to replace 2
or 3 spokes on my wheel, but insisted that clipping out the
bad (stripped) spokes would inevitably warp the entire wheel
beyond repair, and that my only recourse was a complete
rebuild.

Even supposing that 2 or 3 dead spokes would warp the wheel, he could
replace them one by one, if we're talking about damaged nipple problems.

Jasper

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, A Muzi

() said:

Threaded fasteners, be they nipples or crank bolts, need
lubrication.

Dave Larrington said:

Tell that to my cleat fixing bolts :-(

Cleats especially are in a very moist area - your feet will
rust them in place if installed dry.

I cut out many more cleats than I unscrew.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

I cut out many more cleats than I unscrew.

Do you have any pointers on that subject? Perferably ones that don't
involve 2HP drill presses and/or liquid nitrogen.

Brian Huntley said:

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I cut out many more cleats than I unscrew.

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Do you have any pointers on that subject? Perferably ones that
don't involve 2HP drill presses and/or liquid nitrogen.

I use what seems to be fairly good anti-seize grease, one that has
soft metal particles that prevent welding by fretting that seems to be
common on the SPD cleats. Make sure the threads AND the flat-head
countersinks are lubricated. The soft metal in the anti-seize
compound is there to not fret out of the interface as oil does. It
has worked for me.

Jobst Brandt

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A Muzi said:

I cut out many more cleats than I unscrew.

Brian Huntley said:

Do you have any pointers on that subject? Perferably ones that don't
involve 2HP drill presses and/or liquid nitrogen.

Cut away the nylon cleat. Grab the screw stump with a vise
grip. That is for rusted screws after the head has broken off.
For SPD slit with a disc grinder and drop into water right
away. The hot steel cleat and screw stumps will melt the
sole otherwise.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I cut out many more cleats than I unscrew.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have any pointers on that subject? Preferably ones that
don't involve 2HP drill presses and/or liquid nitrogen.

Quoted message said:

Cut away the nylon cleat. Grab the screw stump with a vise
grip. That is for rusted screws after the head has broken off.
For SPD slit with a disc grinder and drop into water right
away. The hot steel cleat and screw stumps will melt the
sole otherwise.

OH! I was thinking of SPD cleats that are noted for the flat head
screws, with their tiny hex wrench recesses becoming unremovable from
use. There is no "cutting away" there.

Jobst Brandt

In article <[email hidden]>, A Muzi

() said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, A Muzi

() said:

Threaded fasteners, be they nipples or crank bolts, need
lubrication.

Dave Larrington said:

Tell that to my cleat fixing bolts :-(

Cleats especially are in a very moist area - your feet will
rust them in place if installed dry.

After losing one during a 300 km brevet back in June, I went for nearly
six months with but two of the more usual three on my left shoe, as my
stocks of odd nuts and bolts were still in store pending the completion
of the new East Wing at Larrington Towers (being Carnac shoes, normal-
length bolts as supplied with replacement cleats are too short). On
December 4th, six months to the day since losing the aforementioned, I
set out on a 200 km brevet with a full complement of bolts...

....until the Alton control after about 120 km where, on unclipping, one
bolt fell onto the floor while another was missing altogether. These
having, just for variety's sake, dropped out of the /right/ shoe.

Natch on returning home and attempting to ensure that this wouldn't
happen again, I ran out of Loctite after applying it to but one of the
stupid things. Bah!

Quoted message said:

I cut out many more cleats than I unscrew.

I have done so in the past, but this particular pair of shoes seems very
prone to shedding them. I have another pair of Carnacs for everyday use
which have behaved themselves admirably.

And then there's the front light which made a determined bid for freedom
after 2 km of the same 200, and repeated the attempt, though with less
success, on Saturday's 100. I am clearly having a Bad Thread Month...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
I thought I saw his name on a jar of marmalade the other day, but when I
looked more closely, I saw it read 'thick cut'.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On another topic, I posted about using loctite on spoke threads some
time ago, with answers from Jobst Brandt and Sheldon Brown and others
saying definitely NO to that. However, Lennard Zinn recommends in his
book to use a little (which I did when I built up my first set of
wheels 3 1/2years ago, and they've held up beautifully) and -- again --
my favorite mechanic told me to use a tiny bit for the rear wheel I was
building.

Loctite is a crutch for a poor build. If you build a good wheel it is
unecessary. Why not throw a pinch of sale over your left shoulder just
before you build your next wheel? It does as much good as loctite and
does not have the drawback of making truing impossible.

Quoted message said:

So who's right? Or is it a question of different practices with the
same successful outcome IF done by competent builders?

I'm curious about this, because I will be building up a new set in the
near future, and was considering using only grease on the threads this
time, and no loctite.

Smart move.

Quoted message said:

I guess my only concern is that the spokes will
loosen over time.

Not if built properly.

Quoted message said:

But if properly tensioned, that shouldn't happen,
locitite or no loctite. Right?

Correct.
------------
Alex

A quick update. I cut the spoke without loosening the others and
replaced it with a new one. Brought it up to tension in no time, and
everything's fine.

Thanks to all for the advice and feedback.

jp

jp_nyc said:

A quick update. I cut the spoke without loosening the others and
replaced it with a new one. Brought it up to tension in no time, and
everything's fine.

Seemingly.
<eg>