Replacing one spoke

RonSonic said:

Ken M said:

Werehatrack said:

Yup. Not uncommon for the opinions to differ. (The all-time
champion subjects for this (IIRC) are helmets pro/con, whether the
load on the wheel hangs from the upper spokes or stands on the
lower ones or isn't described by either of those, and chain
lubrication and cleaning substances and techniques. The ordering
may vary.)

Helmets and chains? People really post about those things here? I
thought that was limited to rec.bicycles.misc ! 🙂

Greasing tapers, on the other hand....

And now, cutting additional threads...

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Squid-in-Training said:

RonSonic said:

Ken M said:

Werehatrack wrote:

>
> Yup. Not uncommon for the opinions to differ. (The all-time
> champion subjects for this (IIRC) are helmets pro/con, whether the
> load on the wheel hangs from the upper spokes or stands on the
> lower ones or isn't described by either of those, and chain
> lubrication and cleaning substances and techniques. The ordering
> may vary.)
>
Helmets and chains? People really post about those things here? I
thought that was limited to rec.bicycles.misc ! 🙂

Greasing tapers, on the other hand....

And now, cutting additional threads...

In steel, because you can't thread carbon...
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

In article <[email hidden]>,

david said:

I am surprised how much difference of opinion there is on this issue.
Ranging from loosen a lot of spokes before doing it to just cut it.

From a physical arguement, the only different I see between cutting the
spoke and breaking the spoke while riding is that there is load placed on
the wheel while the spoke breaks. I am not sure which is better, no load or
load?

Secondly, if load is placed on the wheel, and indeed wheels hang by their
spoke, the loading, i suspect will break the spoke, which will even put a
larger stress on the area of spoke breakage...

Am I wrong?

Yes.

Wheels do not hang by their spokes.

Release of tension in one spoke decreases the load in
other spokes.

Spokes as a structural element can sustain much more
tension than they are put under in a tensioned wheel.

Spokes break because

1) They are struck by a projectile.

b) They are fatigued from duty cycles at elbows or near
spoke nipples when unrelieved stress is present.

--
Michael Press

Werehatrack said:

Squid-in-Training said:

RonSonic said:

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:17:11 -0500, Ken M <[email hidden]>
wrote:

> Werehatrack wrote:
>
>>
>> Yup. Not uncommon for the opinions to differ. (The all-time
>> champion subjects for this (IIRC) are helmets pro/con, whether the
>> load on the wheel hangs from the upper spokes or stands on the
>> lower ones or isn't described by either of those, and chain
>> lubrication and cleaning substances and techniques. The ordering
>> may vary.)
>>
> Helmets and chains? People really post about those things here? I
> thought that was limited to rec.bicycles.misc ! 🙂

Greasing tapers, on the other hand....

And now, cutting additional threads...

In steel, because you can't thread carbon...

Yet...

How many failures have you heard of carbon steerers due to threading them?
None!!!

It's obvious that the lack of us hearing any sort of peep about threading
carbon steerers is proof enough that they are simply strong enough to stand
just putting a couple of threads on. End of story. Who cares if it isn't
advised, or if it's a bad design? Since we've never heard of them failing
in this manner, it's perfectly okay and safe to do.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training
(see, it works both ways!)

In article <[email hidden]>,

holio said:

Hi JP,

I would use a Vise-grip tightened on the spoke close to the nipple and
one on the nipple close to the rim (so it doesn't crush the nipple) and
back the nipple out. then you won't have to cut the spoke. The rim will
go out of true but will come back with the tightening of the new one. I
always use a Vise-grip when trueing to keep the spoke from turning.

On occasion your method of removing a stripped nipple (vise-grips on
the nipple's shoulder) has saved me the aggravation of cutting a spoke,
but, assuming your wheels are not laced with straight pull spokes,
resorting to V-Gs when truing a wheel is excessive. Why not go with the
standard approach. That is, tightening the nipple beyond the desired
point by an extra 1/4 or 1/2 turn, then backing it off the same amount?

Luke

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

When replacing just one spoke one a wheel when the nipple is rounded,
is it ok to just cut the spoke without loosening any others? Will that
affect the other spokes and make it harder to true the wheel when the
new spoke is put in?

When I am out riding and a spoke decides to "cut itself", I just
unscrew the busted piece, open my brakes, and keep going. When I get
home (or to a bike shop), I stick a new spoke in, tighten it up until
the wheel is true again... and that's it.

I don't see how cutting a single spoke at home would hurt anything.

It does put strain on the wheel/rim, whether you are out riding or if
it's in the stand.. In a controlled situation, that is wanting to take
out a toasted nipple, no reason to NOT take some time to not bend the
rim by just cutting the spoke out with the rim at full tension. PLUS it
can hurt a hub flange as well.

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:25:50 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ken M said:

Werehatrack wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Helmets and chains? People really post about those things here? I
thought that was limited to rec.bicycles.misc ! 🙂

Greasing tapers, on the other hand....

I find that tapirs are much more pleasurable when well greased.

Jasper

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Ron Ruff wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I am out riding and a spoke decides to "cut itself", I just
unscrew the busted piece, open my brakes, and keep going. When I get
home (or to a bike shop), I stick a new spoke in, tighten it up until
the wheel is true again... and that's it.

I don't see how cutting a single spoke at home would hurt anything.

It does put strain on the wheel/rim, whether you are out riding or if
it's in the stand.. In a controlled situation, that is wanting to take
out a toasted nipple, no reason to NOT take some time to not bend the

Some people have other things to do with their life, like watch Oprah.

Quoted message said:

rim by just cutting the spoke out with the rim at full tension. PLUS it
can hurt a hub flange as well.

Are you seriously telling me that if a customer comes in with a spoke that
needs replacing, you detension and then retrue the whole wheel, rather
than grabbing the boltcutters?

Jasper

In article <[email hidden]>, Jasper Janssen

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:25:50 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ken M said:

Werehatrack wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Helmets and chains? People really post about those things here? I
thought that was limited to rec.bicycles.misc ! 🙂

Greasing tapers, on the other hand....

I find that tapirs are much more pleasurable when well greased.

Jasper

And always use a condom. You can't be too safe nowadays!

Luke

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I am out riding and a spoke decides to "cut itself", I just
unscrew the busted piece, open my brakes, and keep going. When I
get home (or to a bike shop), I stick a new spoke in, tighten it
up until the wheel is true again... and that's it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see how cutting a single spoke at home would hurt
anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It does put strain on the wheel/rim, whether you are out riding or
if it's in the stand.. In a controlled situation, that is wanting
to take out a toasted nipple, no reason to NOT take some time to
not bend the

Quoted message said:

Some people have other things to do with their life, like watch
Oprah.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rim by just cutting the spoke out with the rim at full
tension. PLUS it can hurt a hub flange as well.

Quoted message said:

Are you seriously telling me that if a customer comes in with a
spoke that needs replacing, you detension and then retrue the whole
wheel, rather than grabbing the bolt cutters?

Coming from a bicycle shop that builds wheels, I suppose that this
"make work" method might temporarily improve earnings, but it is like
wheel builders who sell tying and soldering spokes as a necessity for
reliability and "better performance". After a while most customers
realize they are being charged for unnecessary work.

Jobst Brandt

Luke said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Jasper

Janssen said:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:25:50 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:17:11 -0500, Ken M <[email hidden]>
wrote:
> Werehatrack wrote:

Quoted message said:

> Helmets and chains? People really post about those things here? I
> thought that was limited to rec.bicycles.misc ! 🙂

Greasing tapers, on the other hand....

I find that tapirs are much more pleasurable when well greased.

Jasper

And always use a condom. You can't be too safe nowadays!

"Family newsgroup, buddy." Literally 😉

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

>When I am out riding and a spoke decides to "cut itself", I just
>unscrew the busted piece, open my brakes, and keep going. When I
>get home (or to a bike shop), I stick a new spoke in, tighten it
>up until the wheel is true again... and that's it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I don't see how cutting a single spoke at home would hurt
>anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It does put strain on the wheel/rim, whether you are out riding or
if it's in the stand.. In a controlled situation, that is wanting
to take out a toasted nipple, no reason to NOT take some time to
not bend the

Quoted message said:

Some people have other things to do with their life, like watch
Oprah.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rim by just cutting the spoke out with the rim at full
tension. PLUS it can hurt a hub flange as well.

Quoted message said:

Are you seriously telling me that if a customer comes in with a
spoke that needs replacing, you detension and then retrue the whole
wheel, rather than grabbing the bolt cutters?

Coming from a bicycle shop that builds wheels, I suppose that this
"make work" method might temporarily improve earnings, but it is like
wheel builders who sell tying and soldering spokes as a necessity for
reliability and "better performance". After a while most customers
realize they are being charged for unnecessary work.

Jobst Brandt

And the proper thing to do is ...?

I've always thought replacing one or two spokes involves those spokes
only. IOW, simply take out the old (broken) spoke and put a new one in
place, tension, and true.

Robin Hubert

Robin Hubert said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> When I am out riding and a spoke decides to "cut itself", I just
>> unscrew the busted piece, open my brakes, and keep going. When I
>> get home (or to a bike shop), I stick a new spoke in, tighten it
>> up until the wheel is true again... and that's it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I don't see how cutting a single spoke at home would hurt
>> anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It does put strain on the wheel/rim, whether you are out riding
> or if it's in the stand.. In a controlled situation, that is
> wanting to take out a toasted nipple, no reason to NOT take some
> time to not bend the rim by just cutting the spoke out with the
> rim at full tension. PLUS it can hurt a hub flange as well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you seriously telling me that if a customer comes in with a
spoke that needs replacing, you de-tension and then retrue the
whole wheel, rather than grabbing the bolt cutters?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Coming from a bicycle shop that builds wheels, I suppose that this
"make work" method might temporarily improve earnings, but it is
like wheel builders who sell tying and soldering spokes as a
necessity for reliability and "better performance". After a while
most customers realize they are being charged for unnecessary work.

Quoted message said:

And the proper thing to do is...?

Quoted message said:

I've always thought replacing one or two spokes involves those
spokes only. IOW, simply take out the old (broken) spoke and put a
new one in place, tension, and true.

Not only that, but if possible, don't make any adjustments to adjacent
spokes to improve trueness while riding home to make the replacement.
Those changes are generally harder to correct after replacing the
broken spoke. Of course if it's not a 36-spoke wheel, this may not be
an option.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Are you seriously telling me that if a customer comes in
with a spoke that needs replacing, you detension and
then retrue the whole wheel, rather than grabbing the
bolt cutters?

Coming from a bicycle shop that builds wheels, I suppose
that this "make work" method might temporarily improve
earnings, but it is like wheel builders who sell tying
and soldering spokes as a necessity for reliability and
"better performance". After a while most customers
realize they are being charged for unnecessary work.
Jobst Brandt

This is funny. Last year (I think it was) I came in here
with a story about my LBS where the dude refused to replace 2
or 3 spokes on my wheel, but insisted that clipping out the
bad (stripped) spokes would inevitably warp the entire wheel
beyond repair, and that my only recourse was a complete
rebuild.
I knew it was BS, as this current thread confirms (as did
the quick and cheap repair at a second shop), but at the time
a couple of gentlemen here jumped all over me for being a
clueless customer, the kind that is always wrong.
Live and learn.

Rico X. Partay said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you seriously telling me that if a customer comes in with a
spoke that needs replacing, you de-tension and then retrue the
whole wheel, rather than grabbing the bolt cutters?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Coming from a bicycle shop that builds wheels, I suppose that this
"make work" method might temporarily improve earnings, but it is
like wheel builders who sell tying and soldering spokes as a
necessity for reliability and "better performance". After a while
most customers realize they are being charged for unnecessary work.

Quoted message said:

This is funny. Last year (I think it was) I came in here with a
story about my LBS where the dude refused to replace 2 or 3 spokes
on my wheel, but insisted that clipping out the bad (stripped)
spokes would inevitably warp the entire wheel beyond repair, and
that my only recourse was a complete rebuild.

Sounds like the old routine to make work.

Quoted message said:

I knew it was BS, as this current thread confirms (as did the quick
and cheap repair at a second shop), but at the time a couple of
gentlemen here jumped all over me for being a clueless customer, the
kind that is always wrong. Live and learn.

Not to worry, there are a few contributors to this newsgroup who take
pleasure in giving bad advice and derision to seriously posed
questions.

Jobst Brandt

FWIW, I'm replacing a spoke on a 28-spoke front wheel with Ultegra hub
radially laced to Velocity Aerohead rim. I stopped by to see my
favorite mechanic in town, and he told me I should loosen the spokes
all around a bit before taking out the bad spoke. This is obviously not
BS advice on his part, since he knows I do the repairs myself.

Just different ways of doing things?

On another topic, I posted about using loctite on spoke threads some
time ago, with answers from Jobst Brandt and Sheldon Brown and others
saying definitely NO to that. However, Lennard Zinn recommends in his
book to use a little (which I did when I built up my first set of
wheels 3 1/2years ago, and they've held up beautifully) and -- again --
my favorite mechanic told me to use a tiny bit for the rear wheel I was
building.

So who's right? Or is it a question of different practices with the
same successful outcome IF done by competent builders?

I'm curious about this, because I will be building up a new set in the
near future, and was considering using only grease on the threads this
time, and no loctite. I guess my only concern is that the spokes will
loosen over time. But if properly tensioned, that shouldn't happen,
locitite or no loctite. Right?

someone said:

FWIW, I'm replacing a spoke on a 28-spoke front wheel with Ultegra
hub radially laced to Velocity Aerohead rim. I stopped by to see my
favorite mechanic in town, and he told me I should loosen the spokes
all around a bit before taking out the bad spoke. This is obviously
not BS advice on his part, since he knows I do the repairs myself.

Quoted message said:

Just different ways of doing things?

Quoted message said:

On another topic, I posted about using Loctite on spoke threads some
time ago, with answers from Jobst Brandt and Sheldon Brown and
others saying definitely NO to that. However, Lennard Zinn
recommends in his book to use a little (which I did when I built up
my first set of wheels 3 1/2years ago, and they've held up
beautifully) and -- again -- my favorite mechanic told me to use a
tiny bit for the rear wheel I was building.

Quoted message said:

So who's right? Or is it a question of different practices with the
same successful outcome IF done by competent builders?

Explain why you want to glue the spoke nipples of your wheel to the
spokes. What is the purpose of this ritual? I think the subject of
Spoke-Prep has been discussed here often enough.

Quoted message said:

I'm curious about this, because I will be building up a new set in
the near future, and was considering using only grease on the
threads this time, and no Loctite. I guess my only concern is that
the spokes will loosen over time. But if properly tensioned, that
shouldn't happen, Loctite or no Loctite. Right?

Oil is easier to use and adequate for the job. Besides, oil between
spoke nipple and rim is at least as important as in the threads. What
do you believe leads to spoke loosening.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Rico X. Partay said:

Quoted message said:

> Are you seriously telling me that if a customer comes in with a
> spoke that needs replacing, you de-tension and then retrue the
> whole wheel, rather than grabbing the bolt cutters?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Coming from a bicycle shop that builds wheels, I suppose that this
"make work" method might temporarily improve earnings, but it is
like wheel builders who sell tying and soldering spokes as a
necessity for reliability and "better performance". After a while
most customers realize they are being charged for unnecessary work.

Quoted message said:

This is funny. Last year (I think it was) I came in here with a
story about my LBS where the dude refused to replace 2 or 3 spokes
on my wheel, but insisted that clipping out the bad (stripped)
spokes would inevitably warp the entire wheel beyond repair, and
that my only recourse was a complete rebuild.

Sounds like the old routine to make work.

Quoted message said:

I knew it was BS, as this current thread confirms (as did the quick
and cheap repair at a second shop), but at the time a couple of
gentlemen here jumped all over me for being a clueless customer, the
kind that is always wrong. Live and learn.

Not to worry, there are a few contributors to this newsgroup who take
pleasure in giving bad advice and derision to seriously posed
questions.

Sometimes the bad manager at my bike shop will try to add work or recommend
replacement instead of repair. I always give the customer the straight beef
or try to sneak repairs by that manager. This usually entails bouncing on
wheels and the use of hammers and vises where appropriate. On steel, of
course.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

jobst brandt said:

someone said:

I'm curious about this, because I will be building up a new set in
the near future, and was considering using only grease on the
threads this time, and no Loctite. I guess my only concern is that
the spokes will loosen over time. But if properly tensioned, that
shouldn't happen, Loctite or no Loctite. Right?

Oil is easier to use and adequate for the job. Besides, oil between
spoke nipple and rim is at least as important as in the threads. What
do you believe leads to spoke loosening.

I know from experience that they don't, but if I didn't, I would consider
the possibility that the normal force on the threads would have a component
in the direction of unscrewing torque, and that this could be greater than
the friction between the two parts. I've never bothered to try to estimate
the magnitudes of these forces.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Now is the time for all good men to come to.
-- Walt Kelly

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm curious about this, because I will be building up a new set in
the near future, and was considering using only grease on the
threads this time, and no Loctite. I guess my only concern is
that the spokes will loosen over time. But if properly tensioned,
that shouldn't happen, Loctite or no Loctite. Right?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oil is easier to use and adequate for the job. Besides, oil
between spoke nipple and rim is at least as important as in the
threads. What do you believe leads to spoke loosening.

Quoted message said:

I know from experience that they don't, but if I didn't, I would
consider the possibility that the normal force on the threads would
have a component in the direction of unscrewing torque, and that
this could be greater than the friction between the two parts. I've
never bothered to try to estimate the magnitudes of these forces.

Then we couldn't rely on any screw that isn't secured by lock-wire,
cotter pin, or double nut. Friction is a great effect when properly
used. You can always use pants with elastic waist band, belt, and
suspenders, so you need never worry about dropping you pants in
public. Spokes have the additional advantage of being such long
screws that they have significant stretch to not go slack in use...
if you don't build weird wheels with too few spokes or ones that are
not tight. In that case your wheel isn't worth much anyway.

Jobst Brandt