Re: Strokes

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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If you say back crawl, youth will laugh at you.

Has this actually happened to you?

I've never heard anyone laugh, at me or anyone else, for the use of the term
"Back Crawl".

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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> >FINA rules only govern competitions that are sanctioned by FINA.

This

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a

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> >tiny fraction of all meets; and to almost all competitiors, FINA

rules

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are
> >irrelevant.
>
> That's news to me. Everywhere I've competed subscribed to FINA rules.
>

You've only swum in international meets?

Don't think I ever have.

Would you please give us the names of some of the competitions you have
attended recently, so that we can check to see if they used FINA rules, or
those of the local authority?

Folks, I've done Martin's homework for him, in a way...

Martin recently claimed to have competed in the Pacific Northwest.

The meet information for the "Annual Age Seattle Open Swim Meet" states:
"Current USA Swimming rules will govern the meet."

The "Senior Seattle Open" meet package states:
"Current USA Swimming rules will govern the meet."

The "Pacific Rim Classic" (held at the Weyerhauser Aquatic Centre, nice big
box of a building) meet package states:
"Current USA Swimming rules will govern the meet."

The "Summer Grand Challenge", hosted by the Tacoma Swim Club, has a meet
package that states (no points for guessing):
"Current USA Swimming rules will govern the meet."

Now, Martin says he swam in that area in or around 1970. The state of
swimming regulation was much more of a hodge-podge then than it is now - the
NCAA, for instance, allowed swimmers in the Backstroke events not only to do
any stroke they wished to on their back, but as well to place their toes
over the gutter on the start. If the Washington area meets did run under
FINA rules way back then, I wonder why they have changed over to USS rules?

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Masters swimmers use the term back crawl because other masters swimmers

use the term back crawl.

But Martin, where did you hear the Masters Swimmers use the term "Back
Crawl"?

I said "I have never heard the terms "back crawl" and "front crawl",
until I joined this newsgroup a year or two ago." This is where I've
heard Masters Swimmers use the term "Back Crawl." What is it you
didn't understand?

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You've told us that:

"As you may know, I have been swimming for nearly fifty years now. I have
trained and competed in, I think, seven states of the union, and in seven
different countries on three continents. I have swum for nine different
clubs or teams. I have competed in hundreds of races, and I must have swum
over ten thousand workouts for a dozen different coaches, a few of them
quite well known. And I have talked swimming with other swimmers too
numerous to count. And through all those years, with all those clubs,
training and competing with all those swimmers in all those places, I have
never heard the terms "back crawl" and "front crawl", until I joined this
newsgroup a year or two ago."

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you say back crawl, youth will laugh at you.

Has this actually happened to you?

Youth laugh at me all the time.

Quoted message said:

I've never heard anyone laugh, at me or anyone else, for the use of the term
"Back Crawl".

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >news:[email hidden]...
> >>
> >> Also, lets get all our cards on the table. Front crawlstroke is
> >> redundant, because there is no back crawlstroke. You can't crawl on
> >> your back.
> >
> >I trust you are tongue-in-cheek above - because otherwise you are
completely
> >wrong.
>
> I'm serious, and I'm sure you can't crawl on your back.
>

Then

a) why is there a stroke named "back crawl"; and (to prevent you

advancing

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your previous incorrect reasoning)
b) why is there a stroke (legal to perform in backSTROKE races) called
"elementary backstroke"

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I don't know the reason why there is a stroke called elementary
backstroke. You tell me.

Perhaps it is to differentiate it from other strokes, such as "Back Crawl"?

I don't think so. It wouldn't make sense to invent a swimming stroke
just so you could differentiate it from the strokes we already have.

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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> >FINA rules only govern competitions that are sanctioned by FINA. This

a

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> >tiny fraction of all meets; and to almost all competitiors, FINA rules
are
> >irrelevant.
>
> That's news to me. Everywhere I've competed subscribed to FINA rules.
>

You've only swum in international meets?

Don't think I ever have.

Would you please give us the names of some of the competitions you have
attended recently, so that we can check to see if they used FINA rules, or
those of the local authority?

I haven't attended any recently.

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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>> >> Also, lets get all our cards on the table. Front crawlstroke is
>> >> redundant, because there is no back crawlstroke. You can't crawl

on

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>> >> your back.
>> >
>> >I trust you are tongue-in-cheek above - because otherwise you are
>completely
>> >wrong.
>>
>> I'm serious, and I'm sure you can't crawl on your back.
>>
>
>Then
>
>a) why is there a stroke named "back crawl"; and (to prevent you

advancing

Quoted message said:

>your previous incorrect reasoning)
>b) why is there a stroke (legal to perform in backSTROKE races) called
>"elementary backstroke"

Quoted message said:

I don't know the reason why there is a stroke called elementary
backstroke. You tell me.

Perhaps it is to differentiate it from other strokes, such as "Back

Crawl"?

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I don't think so. It wouldn't make sense to invent a swimming stroke
just so you could differentiate it from the strokes we already have.

That would be little reason indeed, but you have (purposely?) mis-understood
the sequence of and reasons for the events concerned:

a) Back Crawl was not the first backstroke invented/created.

i) Wynman in 1538 described a backstroke which would be described today
as "sculling on the back".

ii) "Old English Backstroke" - a kind of over-arm recovery
breaststroke-on-the-back, the next developed, is aptly named as it was
dominant until Handley developed the trudgeon backstroke sometime in the
early part of the 20th century. This was the fastest backstroke until

iii)Harry Hebner invented Back Crawl, showing it off in 1908 and using it
to win the 100 back at the 1912 Olympics. As an item of note, the first
three Olympic Gold medals in backstroke were won with a stroke that was NOT
Back Crawl.

b) of course there would be little value in creating a stroke just to be
different - but that was not why any of the back strokes were invented.
They were developed and invented for the purpose of winning races. It is
the _naming_ of them that was chosen so as to differentiate them, and as
Back Crawl is the most junior, it is clear that that name was so (in part)
chosen.

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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>> >FINA rules only govern competitions that are sanctioned by FINA.

This

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a

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>> >tiny fraction of all meets; and to almost all competitiors, FINA

rules

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>are
>> >irrelevant.
>>
>> That's news to me. Everywhere I've competed subscribed to FINA

rules.

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>>
>
>You've only swum in international meets?

Don't think I ever have.

Would you please give us the names of some of the competitions you have
attended recently, so that we can check to see if they used FINA rules,

or

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those of the local authority?

I haven't attended any recently.

Could you please tell us ANY meets that you have attended?

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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>
>Now, you've a long history of posting completey wrong information,

changing

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>threads, using big words (like efficiency) and claiming they mean

something

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>other than what their definitions say they mean, denying what you've

said,

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>and sundry other unpleasantries; and when anyone points these things

out,

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>you (not always in this order):

j, you're still mad because nobody would play along with your suicide
turn idea. Too bad. I don't need google groups because I have the
entyire thread right in front of me.

Then why could you not re-read the thread from the beginning, and see

where

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you had gone off track?

I went off the track where I submitted my post,j, obviously. I went
off the track deliberately to make my points. I made those points, and
you chose to argue with them. Then you tried to claim those points
weren't what you and I were talking about.

I have no idea why. I thought you were trying to discredit me, but you
deny that, so I guess only you know what you are trying to achieve.

There has been no attempt to discredit you, merely to correct all the errors
and mis-information you post.

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

If you say back crawl, youth will laugh at you.

Has this actually happened to you?

Youth laugh at me all the time.

And how do you know that this is because you use the term "Back Crawl"?

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I said "I have never heard the terms "back crawl" and "front crawl",
until I joined this newsgroup a year or two ago." This is where I've
heard Masters Swimmers use the term "Back Crawl." What is it you
didn't understand?

You've never read Counsilman, or Maglischo, or Waterman, or Colwin, or
Forbes Carlile, or Harry Gallagher, or any other of the most important names
in swimming technique?

You've never known that the first three Olympic backstroke medals were won
with a stroke that was NOT Back Crawl?

What were you doing in those fifty years you claim to have been swimming?

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>
> If you say back crawl, youth will laugh at you.
>

Has this actually happened to you?

Youth laugh at me all the time.

And how do you know that this is because you use the term "Back Crawl"?

are you two married?

Otis B. Driftwood said:

Man o' Tea said:

Otis B. Driftwood said:

When we refer to the IM strokes, we
are not talking about elementary
backstroke.

Do the FINA rules preclude elementary
backstroke? As I recall, mostly you
just have to stay on your back and
turn properly. I've never seen anyone
do elementary back in masters meets,
but someone from Equatorial Guinea
might do it at the Olympics someday.

I'm pretty sure you can do it. My point was never to say there was no
such stroke. My point is that when we talk about the IM strokes, we
are talking about the four strokes we always see in competitions. When
you mean elementary backstroke, you say elementary backstroke. If you
just say backstroke when you mean elementary backstroke, your meaning
will rarely be understood without further explanation. If you say back
crawl, youth will laugh at you.

I have seen "elementary backstroke", which is commonly refered to here
as "double-arm backstroke", swum at many Masters meets. Mostly it is
by folks in the older (60+) age groups, but there are a few in the
younger age groups that do it as well, especially for the backstroke
leg of a medley - if they are strong breaststrokers then it seems to be
often be faster for them than "normal" backstroke.

A friend of mine who holds national (New Zealand) records in her age
group (60-64) for backstroke and has been ranked in the world top 10
for her age was beaten at the 2002 World Masters Champs by a woman
doing double-arm backstroke. So if done well, it can certainly be
competitive.

And when I was a kid in England, I regularly heard backstroke called
"back crawl" and freestyle "front crawl". This was in the 1970s but I
think they were commonly used names for the strokes in those days, and
I doubt this usage has died out completely.

Liz D

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have seen "elementary backstroke", which is commonly refered to here
as "double-arm backstroke", swum at many Masters meets. Mostly it is
by folks in the older (60+) age groups, but there are a few in the
younger age groups that do it as well, especially for the backstroke
leg of a medley - if they are strong breaststrokers then it seems to be
often be faster for them than "normal" backstroke.

A friend of mine who holds national (New Zealand) records in her age
group (60-64) for backstroke and has been ranked in the world top 10
for her age was beaten at the 2002 World Masters Champs by a woman
doing double-arm backstroke. So if done well, it can certainly be
competitive.

And when I was a kid in England, I regularly heard backstroke called
"back crawl" and freestyle "front crawl". This was in the 1970s but I
think they were commonly used names for the strokes in those days, and
I doubt this usage has died out completely.

Well, that rules out England as one of the "seven countries on three
continents" that Martin claims to have competed in.

Especially seeing as they have competitions where, as I recall, some events
were named "Front Crawl" and that was the stroke that was required to be
swum.

jtaylor said:

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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[snip]

Quoted message said:

And when I was a kid in England, I regularly heard backstroke called
"back crawl" and freestyle "front crawl". This was in the 1970s but I
think they were commonly used names for the strokes in those days, and
I doubt this usage has died out completely.

Well, that rules out England as one of the "seven countries on three
continents" that Martin claims to have competed in.

Especially seeing as they have competitions where, as I recall, some events
were named "Front Crawl" and that was the stroke that was required to be
swum.

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From my "archive" file.

County Council of Essex Education Department
Grade II Swimming Certificate
dated 19th July 1973
Tests Required for Grade II Swimming Certificate
1. A plunge or racing dive followed by a 66 metres swim of one stroke.
2. A plunge or racing dive followed by a 33 metres swim of a second
stroke.

Strokes to be selected from the following:- Breast, front crawl, back
crawl, butterfly.

Liz D
Grade II swimmer 1973

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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jtaylor said:

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[snip]

Quoted message said:

And when I was a kid in England, I regularly heard backstroke called
"back crawl" and freestyle "front crawl". This was in the 1970s but I
think they were commonly used names for the strokes in those days, and
I doubt this usage has died out completely.

Well, that rules out England as one of the "seven countries on three
continents" that Martin claims to have competed in.

Especially seeing as they have competitions where, as I recall, some

events

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were named "Front Crawl" and that was the stroke that was required to be
swum.

Quoted message said:

From my "archive" file.

County Council of Essex Education Department
Grade II Swimming Certificate
dated 19th July 1973
Tests Required for Grade II Swimming Certificate
1. A plunge or racing dive followed by a 66 metres swim of one stroke.
2. A plunge or racing dive followed by a 33 metres swim of a second
stroke.

Strokes to be selected from the following:- Breast, front crawl, back
crawl, butterfly.

Liz D
Grade II swimmer 1973

Which pool did you do this in? Basildon? Southend? Hornchurch?

jtaylor said:

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

jtaylor said:

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[snip]
> And when I was a kid in England, I regularly heard backstroke called
> "back crawl" and freestyle "front crawl". This was in the 1970s but I
> think they were commonly used names for the strokes in those days, and
> I doubt this usage has died out completely.
>

Well, that rules out England as one of the "seven countries on three
continents" that Martin claims to have competed in.

Especially seeing as they have competitions where, as I recall, some

events

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were named "Front Crawl" and that was the stroke that was required to be
swum.

From my "archive" file.

County Council of Essex Education Department
Grade II Swimming Certificate
dated 19th July 1973
Tests Required for Grade II Swimming Certificate
1. A plunge or racing dive followed by a 66 metres swim of one stroke.
2. A plunge or racing dive followed by a 33 metres swim of a second
stroke.

Strokes to be selected from the following:- Breast, front crawl, back
crawl, butterfly.

Liz D
Grade II swimmer 1973

Which pool did you do this in? Basildon? Southend? Hornchurch?

Harlow.

Liz D
(Essex girl from way back)

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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> > And when I was a kid in England, I regularly heard backstroke

called

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> > "back crawl" and freestyle "front crawl". This was in the 1970s

but I

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> > think they were commonly used names for the strokes in those days,

and

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> > I doubt this usage has died out completely.
> >
>
> Well, that rules out England as one of the "seven countries on three
> continents" that Martin claims to have competed in.
>
> Especially seeing as they have competitions where, as I recall, some

events

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> were named "Front Crawl" and that was the stroke that was required

to be

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> swum.

Just was looking about a bit and noticed that in Adelaide (where Martin
claims to have swum) both

a) the Royal Life Saving Society of Australia; and
b) the Surf Life Saving Society of Australia

conduct courses in swimming skills; the descriptions of these courses use
the terms "Front Crawl" and "Back Crawl" repeatedly.

jtaylor said:

Just was looking about a bit and noticed that in Adelaide (where Martin
claims to have swum) both

a) the Royal Life Saving Society of Australia; and
b) the Surf Life Saving Society of Australia

conduct courses in swimming skills; the descriptions of these courses use
the terms "Front Crawl" and "Back Crawl" repeatedly.

The front crawl stroke has some considerable history of being known as
the "Australian Crawl".

Liz D