Re: Strokes

Otis B. Driftwood said:

If you say back crawl, youth will laugh
at you.

Let the Britney fans laugh away. It might
be archaic, but there are 10 pages of
google hits for "back crawl."

We learned to crawl on our backs in Phys
Ed. They called it crab-walking. We
played crab soccer where everyone had to
crawl with their backs facing down and
kick the ball around. So "back crawl"
doesn't sound that absurd to me.

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you say back
crawl, youth will laugh at you.

You are Martin W. Smith and I claim my five pounds.

Man o' Tea said:

Otis B. Driftwood said:

If you say back crawl, youth will laugh
at you.

Let the Britney fans laugh away. It might
be archaic, but there are 10 pages of
google hits for "back crawl."

It isn't archaic. I said nothing about archaic.

Quoted message said:

We learned to crawl on our backs in Phys
Ed. They called it crab-walking.

That's walking, not crawling.

Quoted message said:

We
played crab soccer where everyone had to
crawl with their backs facing down and
kick the ball around. So "back crawl"
doesn't sound that absurd to me.

Crabs don't crawl. They call it the crab *walk* because it is
reminiscent of a crab walking.

They call it the crawl stroke because it is reminiscent of a person
crawling.

Masters swimmers use the term back crawl because other masters
swimmers use the term back crawl. When a coach assigns a set of
backstroke 100s on a minute thirty interval, the coach *never* means
elementary backstroke.

Why is this a big deal for you and jtaylor?

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you say back
crawl, youth will laugh at you.

You are Martin W. Smith and I claim my five pounds.

What five pounds?

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I trust you are tongue-in-cheek above - because otherwise you are

completely

Quoted message said:

>wrong.

I'm serious, and I'm sure you can't crawl on your back.

Then

a) why is there a stroke named "back crawl"; and (to prevent you

advancing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your previous incorrect reasoning)
b) why is there a stroke (legal to perform in backSTROKE races) called
"elementary backstroke"

j, we're talking about the IM strokes.

Actually Martin, we were and are specifically _not_ talking about the IM
strokes. If you read threads from the beginning instead of lumbering in
half-way you'll (perhaps) make fewer mistakes.

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >I trust you are tongue-in-cheek above - because otherwise you are
completely
> >wrong.
>
> I'm serious, and I'm sure you can't crawl on your back.
>

Then

a) why is there a stroke named "back crawl"; and (to prevent you

advancing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your previous incorrect reasoning)
b) why is there a stroke (legal to perform in backSTROKE races) called
"elementary backstroke"

j, we're talking about the IM strokes.

Actually Martin, we were and are specifically _not_ talking about the IM
strokes. If you read threads from the beginning instead of lumbering in
half-way you'll (perhaps) make fewer mistakes.

Sorry I can't oblige you, but since you are apparently replying to me,
this is what I wrote:

"At the end of the day, there are four IM strokes. They are,
Butterfly, Backstroke, Breaststroke, and Freestyle. Freestyle is
always performed as crawlstroke in an IM, whether the rules require it
or not."

Your reply is below that one, so if you are replying to me, we are
talking about the the four IM strokes. Specifically. If you want to
respond to someone else about something else, do it.

Quoted message said:

Why is this a big deal for you and
jtaylor?

Ah, the troll returns. We might as well
assume that anyone we don't know will be
Martin, looking for an argument over
trifles.

Man o' Tea said:

Quoted message said:

Why is this a big deal for you and
jtaylor?

Ah, the troll returns. We might as well
assume that anyone we don't know will be
Martin, looking for an argument over
trifles.

I propose that a thread end when the name Martin is invoked.

(But if it's really you, M, hi!)

Ruth Kazez

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

j, we're talking about the IM strokes.

Actually Martin, we were and are specifically _not_ talking about the IM
strokes. If you read threads from the beginning instead of lumbering in
half-way you'll (perhaps) make fewer mistakes.

Sorry I can't oblige you,

Martin, there is this thing called "Google Groups", and if you can figure
out how to use it, you will find the starting post of the thread contains:

"Besides the Im strokes; front crawl, back crawl, breast stroke, and
butterfly, what other strokes are there?"

Now, you've a long history of posting completey wrong information, changing
threads, using big words (like efficiency) and claiming they mean something
other than what their definitions say they mean, denying what you've said,
and sundry other unpleasantries; and when anyone points these things out,
you (not always in this order):

a) complain about their spelling
b) question their qualifications
c) state that you have been swimming for longer than they have and so must
be correct
d) begin using bigger and bigger words that mean less and less
e) call them names
f) say you've put them in your killfile
g) threaten to leave the group

Can we please just skip to g)?

Man o' Tea said:

Quoted message said:

Why is this a big deal for you and
jtaylor?

Ah, the troll returns. We might as well
assume that anyone we don't know will be
Martin, looking for an argument over
trifles.

I didn't start this argument.

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> j, we're talking about the IM strokes.

Actually Martin, we were and are specifically _not_ talking about the IM
strokes. If you read threads from the beginning instead of lumbering in
half-way you'll (perhaps) make fewer mistakes.

Sorry I can't oblige you,

Martin, there is this thing called "Google Groups", and if you can figure
out how to use it, you will find the starting post of the thread contains:

"Besides the Im strokes; front crawl, back crawl, breast stroke, and
butterfly, what other strokes are there?"

Now, you've a long history of posting completey wrong information, changing
threads, using big words (like efficiency) and claiming they mean something
other than what their definitions say they mean, denying what you've said,
and sundry other unpleasantries; and when anyone points these things out,
you (not always in this order):

j, you're still mad because nobody would play along with your suicide
turn idea. Too bad. I don't need google groups because I have the
entyire thread right in front of me. Too bad you don't. Then you
wouldn't keep getting things all mixed up. You referred to the orignal
poster's message, which he posted some weeks ago. The thread has
changed several times since then, as you well know, since you changed
it yourself to be about FINA rules. I made an attempt to end the
discussion with my own change, which was this:

***********
At the end of the day, there are four IM strokes. They are, Butterfly,
Backstroke, Breaststroke, and Freestyle. Freestyle is always performed
as crawlstroke in an IM, whether the rules require it or not.

Also, lets get all our cards on the table. Front crawlstroke is
redundant, because there is no back crawlstroke. You can't crawl on
your back. It's just crawlstroke and backstroke. That's it. All you
swimmers out there... stop saying front crawl. It's just crawl, or
crawlstroke. Or best of all, freestyle.When you say freestyle, it
means crawlstroke.

And, lest we forget, don't say laps; say lengths. Or, if you say laps,
use it to mean lengths.

The two types of turn are the flip turn and the open turn. There is no
"suicide" turn.

Let a faster swimmer pass you in one of two ways. If a swimmer passes
you in the middle of the legth, don't speed up to try to keep him from
passing. Instead just relax and glide or take a few slow strokes until
he is gone. If a faster swimmer doesn't pass you in the middle of the
length, pull up at the wall on the side you swim in on, and let him
pass. ie, if you are circling to the right in your lane, pull up at
the end on the right hand side of the lane, and let the faster swimmer
pass you on the left.

If a faster swimmer taps your feet, you are not required to stop
mid-length to let him buy. You can let him by in either of the ways
described above.

Don't push off in front of a faster swimmer.

Don't swim breaststroke in a lane of people swimming freestyle, unless
you are a very fast breaststroker.

Don't wear watches and other jewelry in a lap swimming lane.

Don't wear perfume or cologne into the pool.

Don't eat garlic if you intend to swim the next day.

Brush your teeth, floss, and rinse your mouth before you get in the
pool.

If you have longish hair, wear a cap.

Don't stop a swimmer to discuss the rules with him.
***************

You replied to that, j, so that's what you and I and Man O'war were
talking about, not the original poster's question.

But we have another conundrum here, j. As you may know, I have been
swimming for nearly fifty years now. I have trained and competed in, I
think, seven states of the union, and in seven different countries on
three continents. I have swum for nine different clubs or teams. I
have competed in hundreds of races, and I must have swum over ten
thousand workouts for a dozen different coaches, a few of them quite
well known. And I have talked swimming with other swimmers too
numerous to count. And through all those years, with all those clubs,
training and competing with all those swimmers in all those places, I
have never heard the terms "back crawl" and "front crawl", until I
joined this newsgroup a year or two ago. And to this day I have never
heard them used outside the internet.

Don't you think that is an amazing coincidence?

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Actually Martin, we were and are specifically _not_ talking about the

IM

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>strokes. If you read threads from the beginning instead of lumbering

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>half-way you'll (perhaps) make fewer mistakes.

Sorry I can't oblige you,

Martin, there is this thing called "Google Groups", and if you can figure
out how to use it, you will find the starting post of the thread

contains:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Besides the Im strokes; front crawl, back crawl, breast stroke, and
butterfly, what other strokes are there?"

Now, you've a long history of posting completey wrong information,

changing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

threads, using big words (like efficiency) and claiming they mean

something

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other than what their definitions say they mean, denying what you've

said,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and sundry other unpleasantries; and when anyone points these things out,
you (not always in this order):

j, you're still mad because nobody would play along with your suicide
turn idea. Too bad. I don't need google groups because I have the
entyire thread right in front of me.

Then why could you not re-read the thread from the beginning, and see where
you had gone off track?

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The two types of turn are the flip turn and the open turn. There is no
"suicide" turn.

You are not aware of the type of tumble used by Backstrokers in the days
when rules required a touch on the back with a leading part of the body?

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >Actually Martin, we were and are specifically _not_ talking about the

IM

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >strokes. If you read threads from the beginning instead of lumbering

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >half-way you'll (perhaps) make fewer mistakes.
>
> Sorry I can't oblige you,

Martin, there is this thing called "Google Groups", and if you can figure
out how to use it, you will find the starting post of the thread

contains:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Besides the Im strokes; front crawl, back crawl, breast stroke, and
butterfly, what other strokes are there?"

Now, you've a long history of posting completey wrong information,

changing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

threads, using big words (like efficiency) and claiming they mean

something

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other than what their definitions say they mean, denying what you've

said,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and sundry other unpleasantries; and when anyone points these things out,
you (not always in this order):

j, you're still mad because nobody would play along with your suicide
turn idea. Too bad. I don't need google groups because I have the
entyire thread right in front of me.

Then why could you not re-read the thread from the beginning, and see where
you had gone off track?

I went off the track where I submitted my post,j, obviously. I went
off the track deliberately to make my points. I made those points, and
you chose to argue with them. Then you tried to claim those points
weren't what you and I were talking about.

I have no idea why. I thought you were trying to discredit me, but you
deny that, so I guess only you know what you are trying to achieve.

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The two types of turn are the flip turn and the open turn. There is no
"suicide" turn.

You are not aware of the type of tumble used by Backstrokers in the days
when rules required a touch on the back with a leading part of the body?

I *am* aware. It was not called the suicide turn. Well, you called it
that, but you apparently live in your own world. Not that there's
anything wron with that.

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But we have another conundrum here, j. As you may know, I have been
swimming for nearly fifty years now. I have trained and competed in, I
think, seven states of the union, and in seven different countries on
three continents. I have swum for nine different clubs or teams. I
have competed in hundreds of races, and I must have swum over ten
thousand workouts for a dozen different coaches, a few of them quite
well known. And I have talked swimming with other swimmers too
numerous to count. And through all those years, with all those clubs,
training and competing with all those swimmers in all those places, I
have never heard the terms "back crawl" and "front crawl", until I
joined this newsgroup a year or two ago. And to this day I have never
heard them used outside the internet.

Ever read Counsilman's books? Numerous references to "back crawl". Chapter
IV of the :"Scence of Swimming" is titled: "The Back Crawl Stroke"

How about Frank Waterman (could we all note what a great name for an author
of a swimming manual): Chapter VII "The Back Crawl"

Cecil Colwin's "Breakthrough Swimming" has a section titled "the Origin of
Backcrawl".

Maglischo's "Swimming Fastest" has chapter 6 titled "Back Crawl Stroke"

Perhaps, you, or your coaches and fellow swimmers, should have done some
reading...

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jtaylor said:

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>>
>> Also, lets get all our cards on the table. Front crawlstroke is
>> redundant, because there is no back crawlstroke. You can't crawl on
>> your back.
>
>I trust you are tongue-in-cheek above - because otherwise you are

completely

Quoted message said:

>wrong.

I'm serious, and I'm sure you can't crawl on your back.

Then

a) why is there a stroke named "back crawl"; and (to prevent you

advancing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your previous incorrect reasoning)
b) why is there a stroke (legal to perform in backSTROKE races) called
"elementary backstroke"

Quoted message said:

I don't know the reason why there is a stroke called elementary
backstroke. You tell me.

Perhaps it is to differentiate it from other strokes, such as "Back Crawl"?

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>FINA rules only govern competitions that are sanctioned by FINA. This

a

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>tiny fraction of all meets; and to almost all competitiors, FINA rules

are

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>irrelevant.

That's news to me. Everywhere I've competed subscribed to FINA rules.

You've only swum in international meets?

Don't think I ever have.

Would you please give us the names of some of the competitions you have
attended recently, so that we can check to see if they used FINA rules, or
those of the local authority?

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Man o' Tea said:

Otis B. Driftwood said:

When we refer to the IM strokes, we
are not talking about elementary
backstroke.

Do the FINA rules preclude elementary
backstroke?

No. Now Martin may have swum in meets where FINA rules were not being used,
and if that was the case, he might well have been required to use Back
Crawl - but he wouldn't have known that, as he's stated that in every meet
he's ever attended, FINA rules were used (whether this is actually true is
not known).

Quoted message said:

I'm pretty sure you can do it. My point was never to say there was no
such stroke. My point is that when we talk about the IM strokes, we
are talking about the four strokes we always see in competitions. When
you mean elementary backstroke, you say elementary backstroke. If you
just say backstroke when you mean elementary backstroke, your meaning
will rarely be understood without further explanation. If you say back
crawl, youth will laugh at you.

"Otis B. Driftwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Masters swimmers use the term back crawl because other masters swimmers

use the term back crawl.

But Martin, where did you hear the Masters Swimmers use the term "Back
Crawl"?

You've told us that:

"As you may know, I have been swimming for nearly fifty years now. I have
trained and competed in, I think, seven states of the union, and in seven
different countries on three continents. I have swum for nine different
clubs or teams. I have competed in hundreds of races, and I must have swum
over ten thousand workouts for a dozen different coaches, a few of them
quite well known. And I have talked swimming with other swimmers too
numerous to count. And through all those years, with all those clubs,
training and competing with all those swimmers in all those places, I have
never heard the terms "back crawl" and "front crawl", until I joined this
newsgroup a year or two ago."