Re: spokes

Arthur Harris said:

alan said:

just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a
road (communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets,
curbs and root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth
spoke
broke after about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes
the wheel was very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your
thoughts

A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything
else being the same).

I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g.,
lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.

Although what I've read (mostly in this group) makes me agree with Art,
you can have a perfectly fine wheel with unbutted spokes too. I used to
break spokes frequently. I had a good pair of wheels built a few years ago
and never had the slightest problem after that. I had to catch a loose
bungee cord in the spokes to jerk the rim out of true, and even then it
wasn't enough to make the brake pads rub. The spokes on these wheels are
straight gauge.

I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if
it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the
distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a
heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate
this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at
the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted
spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent
results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.

--
Paul Turner

Arthur Harris said:

A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything
else being the same).

some folks say they ride better too, but that coul be a bogus claim...

no real reason not to use them is the real point--they just cost a few
bucks more.

"Paul Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Arthur Harris wrote:

I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if
it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the
distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a
heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate
this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at
the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted
spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent
results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.

--
Paul Turner

ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in a
pinch!

Quoted message said:

ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in
a
pinch!

Something to keep in mind- by the time you get a 3rd broken spoke, it's time
to rebuild the wheel. Whatever has caused your spoke failures is still
there, and you're way beyond being able to rationalize that they broke from
random failure. They will most likely keep breaking, which is not a whole
lot of fun out on a ride, whether it's a 36 or 24-spoke wheel.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"greggery peccary" <@.@> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Arthur Harris wrote:

I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if
it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the
distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a
heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate
this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at
the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted
spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent
results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.

--
Paul Turner

ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in
a
pinch!

Paul Turner said:

I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low,
even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low
tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly
(especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The
spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted
spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue
eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this,
I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight
gauge spokes on well made wheels.

I disagree. The kind of spoke failure is caused described is caused
by high stress and this is only possible from high tension, load on
the wheel only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose
spokes lead to fatigue failures.

[email hidden]

Paul Turner said:

I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low,
even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low
tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly
(especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The
spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted
spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue
eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this,
I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight
gauge spokes on well made wheels.

I disagree. The kind of spoke failure described is caused by high
stress which is only possible from high tension, load on the wheel
only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose spokes lead to
fatigue failures.

[email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Turner said:

I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low,
even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low
tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly
(especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The
spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted
spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue
eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this,
I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight
gauge spokes on well made wheels.

I disagree. The kind of spoke failure is caused described is caused
by high stress and this is only possible from high tension, load on
the wheel only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose
spokes lead to fatigue failures.

[email hidden]

is there an echo in here?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Turner said:

I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low,
even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low
tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly
(especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The
spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted
spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue
eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this,
I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight
gauge spokes on well made wheels.

I disagree. The kind of spoke failure described is caused by high
stress which is only possible from high tension, load on the wheel
only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose spokes lead to
fatigue failures.

[email hidden]

is there an echo in here?

"greggery peccary"wrote: is there an echo in here?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think it's more like a barber shop with mirrors on facing walls.

"maxo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Arthur Harris said:

A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything
else being the same).

some folks say they ride better too, but that coul be a bogus claim...

no real reason not to use them is the real point--they just cost a few
bucks more.

got my wheel back. they built it with some good swiss spokes cos they had no
double butts. anxious to see how they do on the potholes and curbs.
whatever, im glad to be back on the road (and my old car got it's once a
month spin).

Quoted message said:

got my wheel back. they built it with some good swiss spokes cos they had no
double butts. anxious to see how they do on the potholes and curbs.
whatever, im glad to be back on the road (and my old car got it's once a
month spin).

Some shops only use straight-gauge spokes, possibly if they happen to have
a thread rolling machine, so they don't have to stock several lengths, but
can cut to size.

It is not a good idea to build with straight-gauge spokes. They will be
no stronger, and will not last as long as double-butted.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies

David L. Johnson said:

It is not a good idea to build with straight-gauge spokes.
They will be no stronger, and will not last as long as double-butted.

I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you think
they will fail sooner than butted spokes?

Art Harris

Art Harris said:

David L. Johnson said:

It is not a good idea to build with straight-gauge spokes.
They will be no stronger, and will not last as long as double-butted.

I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you think
they will fail sooner than butted spokes?

Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows slightly more
stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going slack, which lowers
the chance for fatigue failures. One could argue that a straight-gauge
thinner spoke (say a 15 gauge compared with a 14/15) would have as much if
not slightly more stretch than the butted spoke, but the penalty there is
the weaker ends.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is
_`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant.
(_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

David L. Johnson said:

Art Harris wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you >>

think they will fail sooner than butted spokes?

Quoted message said:

Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows
slightly more stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going
slack, which lowers the chance for fatigue failures.

My experience is different. I've built and ridden wheels using variuos
combinations of DT spokes from all straight gauge, to all butted, to a
mix (R/L). I have NEVER broken a straight gauge spoke, while I have
broken a couple of butted spokes (one was the infamous long elbow DT
version).

Furthermore, the broken spokes were all on the right side (which are
far less prone to going slack than those on the left). If your theory
is correct (i.e., fatigue failures increase when spokes go slack), most
broken spokes would occur on the left side. In reality, most failures
occur on the right side.

I'm not saying straight gauge spokes are stronger, or build a better
wheel. I am saying they're no more prone to breakage than a butted
spoke.

Art Harris

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Arthur Harris said:

alan said:

just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a road
(communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs
and
root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke after
about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel was
very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts

A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything else
being the same).

I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g.,
lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.

_ If you keep breaking spokes, you should check that the rim is
still round. While you can use spoke tension to compensate for
a slightly bent rim, it leads to uneven stress in the spokes
which causes breakage. That'a a lot of spokes to break in that
many miles.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Art Harris said:

David L. Johnson said:

Art Harris wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you >>

think they will fail sooner than butted spokes?

Quoted message said:

Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows
slightly more stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going
slack, which lowers the chance for fatigue failures.

My experience is different. I've built and ridden wheels using variuos
combinations of DT spokes from all straight gauge, to all butted, to a
mix (R/L). I have NEVER broken a straight gauge spoke, while I have
broken a couple of butted spokes (one was the infamous long elbow DT
version).

Furthermore, the broken spokes were all on the right side (which are
far less prone to going slack than those on the left). If your theory
is correct (i.e., fatigue failures increase when spokes go slack), most
broken spokes would occur on the left side. In reality, most failures
occur on the right side.

I'm not saying straight gauge spokes are stronger, or build a better
wheel. I am saying they're no more prone to breakage than a butted
spoke.

I recently heard the same thing from a wheelbuilder at a well known
shop out here. He told me his experience has been that straight or
butted makes no differance. He is aware of the theory behind the
claim for db being stronger, but claims that in practice they are the
same.

Maybe spokes are just generally so good these days that it doesn't
matter.

"Booker C. Bense"
<[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Arthur Harris said:

alan said:

just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a

road

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs
and
root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke

after

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts

A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything

else

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

being the same).

I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g.,
lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.

_ If you keep breaking spokes, you should check that the rim is
still round. While you can use spoke tension to compensate for
a slightly bent rim, it leads to uneven stress in the spokes
which causes breakage. That'a a lot of spokes to break in that
many miles.

_ Booker C. Bense

wheel checked out by myself and two bike shops. although there is a very
slght hop the concensus is that i had a wheel with a bad batch of spokes.
(mavic wheel on 2003 novara)